Challenging tradition

[Grazer]

Been thinking about this place and other forums I'm on in light of an email I received a couple of days ago. The person that wrote the email commented that each forum claims to be open in allowing people to freely come to Christ but then has a list of rules a mile long, which usually only allow one or a very limited ways. These rules are usually grounded in the traditional approach to Christianity and the gospel.

I understand the need for rules but its the tradition part I want to focus on. Tradition is not always right or indeed a good thing and has often been challenged. It was traditionally acceptable to have slaves but I doubt anyone would advocate this today. It was a Christian who was one of the driving forces behind getting slavery abolished yet he was up against other Christians arguing from traditional interpretations of scripture. Going further back, it was the traditional view that the earth was at the centre of the universe. It was 2 Christians (Copernicus and Galileo) who were among those who changed that. They were up against the church.

Challenging tradition is always a perilous task and is likely to be met with stern resistance but it needs to be done. This is just as applicable to scripture and how we interpret it. There is a human element to scripture, the culture of the time plays a huge part in understanding what they would have understood at the time. We all bring assumptions to the table when reading scripture, even I do, you can't not.

There is a whole history behind the gospels, behind how we got the bible. We all have different perceptions of God, different ways of coming to him, he made us all unique but in his image. If God is infinite, perhaps there's an infinite number of ways of coming to him and coming to scripture and if its done with the right heart, perhaps he loves all of them. I've changed a great deal and its rarely been met with unanimous approval as its nearly always gone against tradition. Might just be the nature of the internet or it could be human nature to attack what is different. We all have a need to be right, we don't like it when someone suggests we might not be but isn't accepting we might be wrong part of being humble?

I was going to end with a plea for calm the next time someone challenges a traditional view but instead I'd like to ask whether anyone has changed their views on any aspect of scripture and what the reaction was when they discussed it. Also is tradition just another word for past and/or unwillingness to change?

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[John 8:32]

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

 

[P31Woman]

Been thinking about this place and other forums I'm on in light of an email I received a couple of days ago. The person that wrote the email commented that each forum claims to be open in allowing people to freely come to Christ but then has a list of rules a mile long, which usually only allow one or a very limited ways. These rules are usually grounded in the traditional approach to Christianity and the gospel.

I understand the need for rules but its the tradition part I want to focus on. Tradition is not always right or indeed a good thing and has often been challenged. It was traditionally acceptable to have slaves but I doubt anyone would advocate this today. It was a Christian who was one of the driving forces behind getting slavery abolished yet he was up against other Christians arguing from traditional interpretations of scripture. Going further back, it was the traditional view that the earth was at the centre of the universe. It was 2 Christians (Copernicus and Galileo) who were among those who changed that. They were up against the church.

Challenging tradition is always a perilous task and is likely to be met with stern resistance but it needs to be done. This is just as applicable to scripture and how we interpret it. There is a human element to scripture, the culture of the time plays a huge part in understanding what they would have understood at the time. We all bring assumptions to the table when reading scripture, even I do, you can't not.

There is a whole history behind the gospels, behind how we got the bible. We all have different perceptions of God, different ways of coming to him, he made us all unique but in his image. If God is infinite, perhaps there's an infinite number of ways of coming to him and coming to scripture and if its done with the right heart, perhaps he loves all of them. I've changed a great deal and its rarely been met with unanimous approval as its nearly always gone against tradition. Might just be the nature of the internet or it could be human nature to attack what is different. We all have a need to be right, we don't like it when someone suggests we might not be but isn't accepting we might be wrong part of being humble?

I was going to end with a plea for calm the next time someone challenges a traditional view but instead I'd like to ask whether anyone has changed their views on any aspect of scripture and what the reaction was when they discussed it. Also is tradition just another word for past and/or unwillingness to change?

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Couple of things jump out at me. What do "YOU" call traditions?

What do you believe are the essential doctrines of the Christian faith?

Why do you think some of us defend certain doctrines of the faith and allow others to remain unchallanged?

If this was the first post I read on this forum I would immediate think, "Oh this forum is a group of emergents or supporters of universalism." Are you influenced by either of those groups?

 

[P31Woman]

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

What book is Mar?

LOL, I see it's Mark.

The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’


8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

nasb

 

[Grazer]

Couple of things jump out at me. What do "YOU" call traditions?

What do you believe are the essential doctrines of the Christian faith?

Why do you think some of us defend certain doctrines of the faith and allow others to remain unchallanged?

If this was the first post I read on this forum I would immediate think, "Oh this forum is a group of emergents or supporters of universalism." Are you influenced by either of those groups?

Not particularly. If we share certain theological views then so be it but I've not read any literature by those who associate as them.

As for what I see as traditions, there are a couple relating to the bible, couple relating to nature of relationships, others relating to what a Christian can and can't do. It's an interesting point, what is tradition to one is not to another.

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[P31Woman]

Not particularly. If we share certain theological views then so be it but I've not read any literature by those who associate as them.

As for what I see as traditions, there are a couple relating to the bible, couple relating to nature of relationships, others relating to what a Christian can and can't do. It's an interesting point, what is tradition to one is not to another.

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What are they? One I am pretty sure we all know. What about the others?

What do you believe are the essential doctrines of the Chrisitan faith?

 

[Grazer]

What are they? One I am pretty sure we all know. What about the others?

What do you believe are the essential doctrines of the Chrisitan faith?

That Christ died for our sins, rose again by Gods power, we can have forgiveness through Christ and there will be a time when he will come again to judge the world. Apart from God having created the world, that sums it up for me. There is the add-on of God inspiring the bible but that seems to mean different things to different people.

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[P31Woman]

That Christ died for our sins, rose again by Gods power, we can have forgiveness through Christ and there will be a time when he will come again to judge the world. Apart from God having created the world, that sums it up for me. There is the add-on of God inspiring the bible but that seems to mean different things to different people.

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Good deal!

I teach and defend the inspriation of scripture because that is what the bible says about itself. I also teach this based on how the Jews, Jesus, Disciples etc. viewed the Old Testament. For the NT we have the scriptures themselves teaching us this doctrine and the early church's view of those works.

By studying the various theories of inspiration I find most all Christians end up agreeing on the same one. When I get back this afternoon I will give you more info on that.

I bet once you've studied the various theories you will agree with the rest of us. ;)


Another question; Do you believe the trinity is another "add on"? The word is never used in scripture but it's an "essential doctrine".

 

[Grazer]

Good deal!

I teach and defend the inspriation of scripture because that is what the bible says about itself. I also teach this based on how the Jews, Jesus, Disciples etc. viewed the Old Testament. For the NT we have the scriptures themselves teaching us this doctrine and the early church's view of those works.

By studying the various theories of inspiration I find most all Christians end up agreeing on the same one. When I get back this afternoon I will give you more info on that.

I bet once you've studied the various theories you will agree with the rest of us. ;)


Another question; Do you believe the trinity is another "add on"? The word is never used in scripture but it's an "essential doctrine".

I wouldn't go putting any money on that I do.

Not sure on that one. I hold to it but not sure if I put it under the essential category

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[John 8:32]

What book is Mar?

LOL, I see it's Mark.

Direct C&P from Esword

 

[Nick]

Grazer,

Is the Nicene Creed just tradition, or do you believe it is the essential core of our faith?

Perhaps you could tell us what traditions you don't think should be kept.

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[P31Woman]

I wouldn't go putting any money on that I do.

Not sure on that one. I hold to it but not sure if I put it under the essential category

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“Inspiration is the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit, who through the different personalities

and literary styles of the chosen human authors invested the very words of the original books of Holy

Scripture, alone and in their entirety, as the very Word of God without error in all that they teach or imply

(including history and science), and the Bible is thereby the infallible rule and final authority for faith and

practice of all believers.”

-Norman Geisler


If I cannot trust the Bible for TRUTH then why in the world would I put my faith in the God who claimed to author it? I would not even listen to anyone who claimed to tell me about that God. He would be weak and powerless and could not control the mere humans who wrote for him much less creation, life or death.

 

[P31Woman]

One thing we need to agree upon.

What is essential for one to come to faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior is one thing.

Essentials of the Chrisitan faith is a much broader topic. (milk vs meat)

Hebrews 5:12

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. NASB

 

[Grazer]

“Inspiration is the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit, who through the different personalities

and literary styles of the chosen human authors invested the very words of the original books of Holy

Scripture, alone and in their entirety, as the very Word of God without error in all that they teach or imply

(including history and science), and the Bible is thereby the infallible rule and final authority for faith and

practice of all believers.â€

-Norman Geisler

In which case no, I don't totally agree with that. I'll outline why;

Inspiration is the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit - Agreed

who through the different personalities and literary styles of the chosen human authors - Agreed in that God used human authors with differing styles to get the bible written

invested the very words of the original books of Holy Scripture, alone and in their entirety, as the very Word of God - I don't believe God dictated the bible, more inspired but let the human authors use their own words based on their understanding (its more complex than that but that's a simplistic overview)

without error in all that they teach or imply - with regards to genesis and its teaching of young earth, no I don't agree its without error in its teaching. Regarding what it implies, that's a very subjective statement so I can't say I agree since many differ on what passages imply

(including history and science), - See above for science. As for history, I accept that external evidence supports the NT more often than not but strict historical study cannot comment on whether Jesus was the son of God or whether he performed miracles. Plus history has not always verified the exact account in the NT, the census is one example. Not sure about the OT.

and the Bible is thereby the infallible rule - Disagree to an extent for the reasons above.

final authority for faith and practice of all believers - Agreed though Christians differ on the specifics of the practice

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[WIP]

We all have different perceptions of God, different ways of coming to him, he made us all unique but in his image. If God is infinite, perhaps there's an infinite number of ways of coming to him and coming to scripture and if its done with the right heart, perhaps he loves all of them.

Different ways? Infinite ways?
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[Grazer]

Different ways? Infinite ways?
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Yeah wasn't my best worded post ever lol what I meant was an infinite number of ways of walking with God.

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[P31Woman]

In which case no, I don't totally agree with that. I'll outline why;

Inspiration is the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit - Agreed

who through the different personalities and literary styles of the chosen human authors - Agreed in that God used human authors with differing styles to get the bible written

invested the very words of the original books of Holy Scripture, alone and in their entirety, as the very Word of God - I don't believe God dictated the bible, more inspired but let the human authors use their own words based on their understanding (its more complex than that but that's a simplistic overview)

without error in all that they teach or imply - with regards to genesis and its teaching of young earth, no I don't agree its without error in its teaching. Regarding what it implies, that's a very subjective statement so I can't say I agree since many differ on what passages imply

(including history and science), - See above for science. As for history, I accept that external evidence supports the NT more often than not but strict historical study cannot comment on whether Jesus was the son of God or whether he performed miracles. Plus history has not always verified the exact account in the NT, the census is one example. Not sure about the OT.

and the Bible is thereby the infallible rule - Disagree to an extent for the reasons above.

final authority for faith and practice of all believers - Agreed though Christians differ on the specifics of the practice

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Good deal! We are getting somewhere!

I don't know one Chrisitan who believes or teaches "dictation theory" NONE. Geisler does not teach it either.

Let's look examine this. How did God Breath scripture? What does the bible say about that topic? Can you tell me?

See all your current beliefs concerning Jesus, Salvation, etc. hinge on how you view scripture.

I would like for you to give me actual scripture to support your view that scripture is men's interpetation (understanding according to you) and that scripture is not the Word of God.

 

[P31Woman]

BTW,

I was reading your debate thread. You are being influenced by the works of people in the Emergent Movement. You mentioned Derek Flood. He rejects the biblical belief that Jesus died on the cross for my sins. Many in the EC movement teach that doctrine as "cosmic child abuse".

Let me give you a little background on Rob Bell one of the founders of the EC movement. He was an evangelical pastor UNTIL he and his wife decided the bible was not a divine work rather a work of man. As Bell says that "changed everything". Indeed it does! No longer are ANY of the Chrisitan doctrines set in stone. Instead they are ALL like jello. They change with each new generation and their "experience" with God. Doctrine always changes. . In the EC group it's arrogant to say there is only one way to God.

The EC are wolves in sheeps clothing. They are what the God calls false teachers.

Liberals and those in the EC love to throw out "dictation theory" a theory that is straw man and we ALL know that. They use that to make themselves appear to be wise and the evanglical church stupid.

 

[Grazer]

Good deal! We are getting somewhere!

I don't know one Chrisitan who believes or teaches "dictation theory" NONE. Geisler does not teach it either.

Let's look examine this. How did God Breath scripture? What does the bible say about that topic? Can you tell me?

See all your current beliefs concerning Jesus, Salvation, etc. hinge on how you view scripture.

I would like for you to give me actual scripture to support your view that scripture is men's interpetation (understanding according to you) and that scripture is not the Word of God.

Stupid brain, going faster than my fingers can type. I was meant to put "based on their understanding of the world" Genesis shares a lot of similarities with other ancient near eastern texts that predate genesis, I'm on the lines that God used these to make his point because its what the people at the time would have understood.

 

[Nick]

Grazer,

Do you have a response to my post#11? (I'm guessing you missed it. The thread was moving quickly when I posted)

Is the Nicene Creed just tradition, or do you believe it is the essential core of our faith?

Perhaps you could tell us what traditions you don't think should be kept.