Challenging tradition

[Grazer]

BTW,

I was reading your debate thread. You are being influenced by the works of people in the Emergent Movement. You mentioned Derek Flood. He rejects the biblical belief that Jesus died on the cross for my sins. Many in the EC movement teach that doctrine as "cosmic child abuse".

Let me give you a little background on Rob Bell one of the founders of the EC movement. He was an evangelical pastor UNTIL he and his wife decided the bible was not a divine work rather a work of man. As Bell says that "changed everything". Indeed it does! No longer are ANY of the Chrisitan doctrines set in stone. Instead they are ALL like jello. They change with each new generation and their "experience" with God. Doctrine always changes. . In the EC group it's arrogant to say there is only one way to God.

The EC are wolves in sheeps clothing. They are what the God calls false teachers.

Liberals and those in the EC love to throw out "dictation theory" a theory that is straw man and we ALL know that. They use that to make themselves appear to be wise and the evanglical church stupid.

I keep an open mind on things. I disagree with Derek about Jesus but I don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I've found what he's had to say, particularly in the interview I linked to, very interesting and thought provoking. Whether he's part of the emergent movement makes no odds to me.

But we are to take the bible at face value according to evangelicals because its the word of God, yet they don't believe it was dictated? Doesn't add up to me.

 

[Nick]

I keep an open mind on things. I disagree with Derek about Jesus but I don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I've found what he's had to say, particularly in the interview I linked to, very interesting and thought provoking. Whether he's part of the emergent movement makes no odds to me.

But we are to take the bible at face value according to evangelicals because its the word of God, yet they don't believe it was dictated? Doesn't add up to me.

Depends what you mean by dictated. I'm kind of leaning on that side of it, but we also have times where Paul gives his opinion (in parts of Corinthians). But I do believe it is God's willl for that to end up in the canon.

Commentaries and theologians can be helpfull, but we are always to test them against the Bible. The Bible is the final and ultimate authority.

 

[P31Woman]

Stupid brain, going faster than my fingers can type. I was meant to put "based on their understanding of the world" Genesis shares a lot of similarities with other ancient near eastern texts that predate genesis, I'm on the lines that God used these to make his point because its what the people at the time would have understood.

What makes your Jesus a god and not like some Mother teresa and Gandhi?

 

[P31Woman]

I have tried to copy and paste all this proof scripture in order so that you can quickly glance down as you read to see what the actual scripture posted has to say.



Norman Geisler on The Doctrine of Verbal, Plenary Inspiration

"The human writer is seen as one who has received a revelation [revelation means the giving of truth from God, inspiration refers to the recording of this truth] and actively participates in its writing, while God gives the revelation and oversees the writing. Hence, the message is wholly from God, but the humanity of the writer is included to enhance the message. Both the divine and human concur in the same words (1 Cor. 2:13)." [6]

It cannot be overemphasized that inspiration was not a mechanical dictation where the human element of writing was obliterated. God allowed a certain amount of their individual styles to be expressed. Nonetheless, the Holy Spirit of God guided and controlled each writer so that what they wrote was not distorted in any sense, but was what God wanted written. In other words, because God is omnipotent (Rev. 19:6), and the Biblical authors were "born along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:21), people did not (in fact, could not) corrupt God's truth in the process of recording it. It is very important to understand these concepts.

The process of inspiration extended to every word of every book of the entire Bible (2 Tim. 3:16 -- "all Scripture"), refuting the idea of myth and error. Jesus taught this, claiming that inspiration extended to the very words (Matt. 5:18), and Paul also believed in the accuracy of the very words (see Gal. 3:16 where he bases his entire argument on the tense of a single word in the Old Testament. He could not have done this if he did not consider the very words accurate). This is called the doctrine of verbal, plenary inspiration, which means that the very words (verbal) were all (plenary) God-breathed. The result must be inerrant and infallible because God is behind the writings, and He is perfect. If it were not inerrant, we would be left with God inspired error (a contradiction in terms!). Jesus said that God's word is truth (John 17:17). Truth is an accurate, undistorted view of reality that is consistent with itself and does not allow for the presence of myths (1 Tim. 1:3, 4; 2 Tim. 4:4), errors, mistakes, or contradictions: "Every word of God is flawless..." (Prov. 30:5). "I, the Lord, speak the truth..." (Isaiah 45:9). That which isn't real, isn't true.

The importance of inspiration
According to 2 Timothy 3:17 there is a reason that all Scripture is God-breathed and therefore without error. In the context of 2 Timothy 3, Paul is talking about the peril of apostasy (false teaching) and the need for protection from it. In order to stand firm in Christ and the truth, we must have a solid foundation, since many will oppose the truth (v. 8), "evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived" (v. 13), and "all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (v. 12). If the Bible contains errors, it is not a solid foundation. Therefore, the entire Bible is God-breathed so that we may "teach, correct, reprove, and train in righteousness, so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." If all Scripture is not God-breathed and inerrant, the man of God is not adequate, and certainly not equipped, for doing the work of God. The standard for our beliefs must be fully backed by God's authority, or it will fall, and we will go with it."


1 Corinthians 2:13

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.


Revelation 19:6

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying,
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.

2 Peter 1:21

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Matthew 5:18

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Galatians 3:16

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

John 17:17

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

Timothy 1:3-4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

2 Timothy 4:4

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Proverbs 30:5

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Every word of God is tested;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

Isaiah 45:9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 “Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

2 Timothy 3

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

“Difficult Times Will Come”

3 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.
10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

[Grazer]

What makes your Jesus a god and not like some Mother teresa and Gandhi?

Resurrection. God wouldn't raise just anyone and Jesus couldn't do it himself because he was dead.

 

[Grazer]

To say that God wouldn't use myth is an assumption based on your theology and it is an assumption I challenge. Peter Enns puts it brilliantly when he said "we all come to the bible thinking we've got it all figured out and I recommend at least hearing him out in full;

http://www.beyondtheboxpodcast.com/...nd-the-question-of-evolution-with-peter-enns/

 

[P31Woman]

Resurrection. God wouldn't raise just anyone and Jesus couldn't do it himself because he was dead.

How do you know about the resurrection?

How do you know Jesus could not raise his body from the dead?

 

[P31Woman]

To say that God wouldn't use myth is an assumption based on your theology and it is an assumption I challenge. Peter Enns puts it brilliantly when he said "we all come to the bible thinking we've got it all figured out and I recommend at least hearing him out in full;

http://www.beyondtheboxpodcast.com/...nd-the-question-of-evolution-with-peter-enns/

The part in bold is a flat out lie. Why would I want to listen to someone who tells about lie about me?

I came to scripture KNOWING I was in need of some help.

 

[Grazer]

The part in bold is a flat out lie. Why would I want to listen to someone who tells about lie about me?

I came to scripture KNOWING I was in need of some help.

Because its true. You're here telling me where you think I'm going wrong, you assume God wouldn't use myth. I'm doing the same but the opposite view. We both think we've got it figured otherwise this discussion would be very different.

 

[P31Woman]

Because its true. You're here telling me where you think I'm going wrong, you assume God wouldn't use myth. I'm doing the same but the opposite view. We both think we've got it figured otherwise this discussion would be very different.

What is the foundation for "your belief system" and why?

Where can I learn about this "Jesus" you speak of and why should I trust that source to be accurate?

 

[Grazer]

What is the foundation for "your belief system" and why?

Where can I learn about this "Jesus" you speak of and why should I trust that source to be accurate?

The answer to that is obvious; the Bible! We worship the same God

 

[P31Woman]

The answer to that is obvious; the Bible! We worship the same God

If you worship the same God scripture teaches us about why don't you obey him and teach others to do the same?

 

[John 8:32]

A couple of traditions to look at...

xmas and ishtar as well as the primacy of Peter.

 

[Nick]

A couple of traditions to look at...

xmas and ishtar as well as the primacy of Peter.

What's the problem with Christmas and Easter?

 

[P31Woman]

Grazer,

You posted the works of a man who denies the gospel message. Yet you turn to him for honest and truthful teaching? Why

God warns us against doing that.
Here is just one of many many verses we can find warning us whom to stay away from.

1 John 1

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

 

[P31Woman]

That Christ died for our sins, rose again by Gods power, we can have forgiveness through Christ and there will be a time when he will come again to judge the world. Apart from God having created the world, that sums it up for me. There is the add-on of God inspiring the bible but that seems to mean different things to different people.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

After reading the post about Inspiration of the bible and the reading the actual scripture passages how can you say we have an "add on"? Defend your stance and defend your stance that you can ignore parts of the scritpure you like and stand by parts you like?

 

[Aloysium]

“Inspiration is the supernatural operation of the Holy Spirit, who through the different personalities

and literary styles of the chosen human authors invested the very words of the original books of Holy

Scripture, alone and in their entirety, as the very Word of God without error in all that they teach or imply

(including history and science), and the Bible is thereby the infallible rule and final authority for faith and

practice of all believers.â€

-Norman Geisler

if i may add my comments, i feel like i'm intruding

we all think differently:

the study of history to me is an activity that involves getting together evidence and developing a coherent story around those facts; the Bible does not do this. While it continuously reveals itself to be truth to me, it is not historical truth in the way i understand the field of History, which is opinion and not truth, like the Bible is. That the people in the Bible lived, is pretty much a certainty for me. Their role in the Bible is to reveal God's nature to us.

as for science, which i know a lot about, if someone wants to prove to me that the earth's age is measured in thousands rather than billions of years, they will have to quote where in scripture this is stated
where is it said that a day for God is the same as a day for man?
where are the mechanics of how God fashioned Adam from the dust?
the descripition of such events is the field of the natural sciences

it is clear to me that scripture involves interpretation:

Mark 4 :“Hear this! A sower went out to sow.
And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path,
and the birds came and ate it up.
Other seed fell on rocky ground where it had little soil.
It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep.
And when the sun rose, it was scorched and it withered for lack of roots.
Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it
and it produced no grain.
And some seed fell on rich soil and produced fruit.
It came up and grew and yielded thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.â€
He added, “Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.â€

Jesus is not talking about planting a garden.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

To say that God wouldn't use myth is an assumption based on your theology and it is an assumption I challenge. Peter Enns puts it brilliantly when he said "we all come to the bible thinking we've got it all figured out and I recommend at least hearing him out in full;

http://www.beyondtheboxpodcast.com/...nd-the-question-of-evolution-with-peter-enns/

Enns is no biblical scholar. He is a denier of biblical inerrancy and inspiration. He emphasizes human nature over the divine, he claims Genesis 1-3 is grounded in ancient myth (seemingly oblivious to the fact that most of the "myths" he claims to have inspired Genesis were actually formed after Genesis was written, thus making those myths an abrogation of Genesis), and denies the historiography of the Bible despite the fact no one has ever been able to prove an historical inaccuracy in any of the 66 books.

And you use this man as a source for your argument? Doesn't lend much credence to it, I'm afraid, Grazer.

 

[Grazer]

Enns is no biblical scholar. He is a denier of biblical inerrancy and inspiration. He emphasizes human nature over the divine, he claims Genesis 1-3 is grounded in ancient myth (seemingly oblivious to the fact that most of the "myths" he claims to have inspired Genesis were actually formed after Genesis was written, thus making those myths an abrogation of Genesis), and denies the historiography of the Bible despite the fact no one has ever been able to prove an inaccuracy in the 66 books.

And you use this man as a source for your argument? Doesn't lend much credence to it, I'm afraid, Grazer.

No, the ancient near eastern stories predate Genesis, I'd love to see your evidence to the contrary. He doesn't deny inspiration, you just have to read his books to see that. He just has a different take on what inspiration means. As for inerrancy, depends on what you mean by inerrancy.

 

[P31Woman]

if i may add my comments, i feel like i'm intruding

we all think differently:

the study of history to me is an activity that involves getting together evidence and developing a coherent story around those facts; the Bible does not do this. While it continuously reveals itself to be truth to me, it is not historical truth in the way i understand the field of History, which is opinion and not truth, like the Bible is. That the people in the Bible lived, is pretty much a certainty for me. Their role in the Bible is to reveal God's nature to us.

as for science, which i know a lot about, if someone wants to prove to me that the earth's age is measured in thousands rather than billions of years, they will have to quote where in scripture this is stated
where is it said that a day for God is the same as a day for man?
where are the mechanics of how God fashioned Adam from the dust?
the descripition of such events is the field of the natural sciences

it is clear to me that scripture involves interpretation:

Mark 4 :“Hear this! A sower went out to sow.
And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path,
and the birds came and ate it up.
Other seed fell on rocky ground where it had little soil.
It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep.
And when the sun rose, it was scorched and it withered for lack of roots.
Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it
and it produced no grain.
And some seed fell on rich soil and produced fruit.
It came up and grew and yielded thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”
He added, “Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.”

Jesus is not talking about planting a garden.

Any scritpure to support your view?