Children and heaven

[Heidi]

Paul also says in 1 Corinthians 7:16, "How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband?" That passage clearly indicates that salvation is not a fact in such unions, but only a possibility.

Heidi,
Please, take heed of your own words. The emphasis on "Possibility"... and there in lays my hope that my daughter will unite with Christ in heaven.

But as far as unions go, specifically with Christ, who can snatch those out of His hands whom the father has given to Him? Are we not saved by Grace? Therefore, faith becomes a means to rightousnes would it not?

You see, you are doing the same thing as the pharasis... you are seeking to take away and disprove the scriptures here. This is why you dwell on those who will not see heaven yet are blind to your own words.

Possibly means we don't really know. We may have a good idea, but those ideas are based on what we are able to see, and what we are able to see, is based on what were allowed to see according to the grace given us.

Now, taking what you said one step further, the Church is Christ's bride and Christ is holy. There are those who are in union with Christ, yet if they become too proud, the wild olive branches that were grafted on, can be easily removed... and that is a possibility, yet it does not mean that all whom are grafted will become arrogant resulting in all whome are grafted will become holy. You see, some will, some won't, but regardless, it's all in accord with the Grace given and as you know, grace cannot be earned for if it were, then it wouldn't be grace for it would become a wage... and it is by grace that we are saved and that dear Heidi, depends on God's will, for truly, he will save whome he chooses.

Again, do you dare attempt take my hope in Christ away that my daughter might possibly be saved? I am aware that we hope in things we do not have for if we had them, it would not be hope. Tell me, is my hope tainted? Is it wrong for me to hope that our Lord have mercy that my daughter be saved?

I await your response as this topic is much more than a fancy of mine, but rather very real. After all, if it's not real but rather a bunch of reasoning, what good is it?

Peace be with you my Sister in Christ,

Jeff

Which scriptures have I said were wrong? :o None. Zero. No one who is born again of the Holy Spirit can lose the Holy Spirit, Jeff. No one. That is precisely why children cannot have received the Holy Spirit as children, then change their minds when they grow up. But since most of the children in the world will grow up to be Muslims, Buddhists, Hindi, atheists, agnostics, etc. that means they could not received the Holy Spirit as children and then lost it as adults which means they cannot go to heaven until they accept Christ.

But Paul clearly says that children raised in a family of believers are sancitified by the belief of their parents. That is what scripture says, Jeff. And I disagree with none of it. Children raised in such a family were raised to believe that Jesus is the only way to God and if they die before they have rejected the word of God, they are clean.

And as far as being a pharisee is concerned, they would cringe to have me as a member of their club! I have way too many rough edges, do not follow the letter of the law and give all the credit for anything good to me to God instead of myself. So your attack is simply a malicious statement that has no basis in reality.

 

[stovebolts]

Proto's, thank you for your post. Sorry I did not acknowledge it.
Collier, thank you too for your posts. Both were uplifting, encourageing and based on sound doctrine in my opinion.

Thess,
I agree, it's all about mercy and God's grace. If we focus here, it matters not who, but rather by God's authority and rightousness and through that, He deserves our utmost respect and praise. (excuse the haist in which this was written and the bad wording...)

Heidi,
You lack compassion and discernment. If I sounded malacious, then I am sorry you took it that way. I will pray for you.

Since you will not afford my only request from you, I would like to leave you with these thoughts.

1 Corinthians 3:12-14 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall test every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

And so it is that the ash from the stubble and chaff is deep...

From my Spirit Heidi, may God bless you.

Jeff

 

[thessalonian]

But Paul clearly says that children raised in a family of believers are sancitified by the belief of their parents. That is what scripture says, Jeff. And I disagree with none of it. Children raised in such a family were raised to believe that Jesus is the only way to God and if they die before they have rejected the word of God, they are clean.

Is what you are saying that children who are born to parents who have the holy spirit have the holy spirit as well? Your posts are actually interesting and do point to the dilema of OSAS and faith alone quite nicely though I doudt you see it.

So if a couple has a child that dies and then they become Christian you say that child is in hell?

 

[Heidi]

Proto's, thank you for your post. Sorry I did not acknowledge it.
Collier, thank you too for your posts. Both were uplifting, encourageing and based on sound doctrine in my opinion.

Thess,
I agree, it's all about mercy and God's grace. If we focus here, it matters not who, but rather by God's authority and rightousness and through that, He deserves our utmost respect and praise. (excuse the haist in which this was written and the bad wording...)

Heidi,
You lack compassion and discernment. If I sounded malacious, then I am sorry you took it that way. I will pray for you.

Since you will not afford my only request from you, I would like to leave you with these thoughts.

1 Corinthians 3:12-14 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall test every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

And so it is that the ash from the stubble and chaff is deep...

From my Spirit Heidi, may God bless you.

Jeff

Lak of compassiion? Do you know how I ache for my children who denounce Christ? Do you know how I ache for muslim children, Buddhists' children, atheist children??? Can you possibly imagine? No, you cannot. But I will not disagree with Jesus just because you accuse me of being cold and callous which couldn't be further from the truth! He says there is only one way to God. But you obviously don't believe him! He also said that anyone who loves his father, mother, or children more than him is not worthy of him. You probably therefore think Jesus is cold and callous also or you wouldn't call me cold and callous for beliving him. Therefore your judgementalism is is not coming from the Spirit or you would love Christ above children.

 

[Heidi]

Jeff,

Where do you think Muslim children will go when they die? Where do you think children who were raised as Hindi, Jewish, or pagan children will go when they die? Where does the bible say that any of them will go to heaven? :o

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, but heaven is not an entitlement to mankind. It is a gift from God to all those chosen before the creation of the world. And since no one knows who is chosen, then salvation is open to all, but only a few will receive it according to Jesus. "For many are invited but few are chosen."

:o In other words, God is playing a big practical joke on everyone. Nice, very nice Heidi. :-?

So why do you think heaven is an entitlement to us just because we were born? Jesus said "no one is good but God alone." Do you want to qualify that? :o Those are his words, not mine. If you have a problem with them, then criticize him, not me.

 

[thessalonian]

Heidi,

If you get a chance could you answer the questions in my last post. Thanks.

 

[Heidi]

But Paul clearly says that children raised in a family of believers are sancitified by the belief of their parents. That is what scripture says, Jeff. And I disagree with none of it. Children raised in such a family were raised to believe that Jesus is the only way to God and if they die before they have rejected the word of God, they are clean.

Is what you are saying that children who are born to parents who have the holy spirit have the holy spirit as well? Your posts are actually interesting and do point to the dilema of OSAS and faith alone quite nicely though I doudt you see it.

So if a couple has a child that dies and then they become Christian you say that child is in hell?

Why would you think that child is in heaven? :o What scrpitural basis do you have to support that Jesus is not the only way to God? :o Do you think heaven is some sort of magic that happens to people who don't repent? Or how about simply wishful thinking? :o Which is it?

 

[Heidi]

The reason I believe that children who haven't heard the word of God can't go to heaven is precisely because I believe in OSAS. As I said in my post, heaven isn't granted to children and then taken away from them for a while but they can get it back later if they want to. OSAS. But since most of the world is comprised of atheists, Muslimds, Buddhist, Hindi, Jews, ets. your claim that all children go to heaven but it's taken away from them definitely contradicts OSAS.

And one more question: if all children magically go to heaven, then why do people baptize their children as infants? :o

 

[thessalonian]

But Paul clearly says that children raised in a family of believers are sancitified by the belief of their parents. That is what scripture says, Jeff. And I disagree with none of it. Children raised in such a family were raised to believe that Jesus is the only way to God and if they die before they have rejected the word of God, they are clean.

Is what you are saying that children who are born to parents who have the holy spirit have the holy spirit as well? Your posts are actually interesting and do point to the dilema of OSAS and faith alone quite nicely though I doudt you see it.

So if a couple has a child that dies and then they become Christian you say that child is in hell?

Why would you think that child is in heaven? :o What scrpitural basis do you have to support that Jesus is not the only way to God? :o Do you think heaven is some sort of magic that happens to people who don't repent? Or how about simply wishful thinking? :o Which is it?

I didn't say they did. Of course I didn't say they didn't either. Please answer my first question. Does the child born to "saved" parents have the Holy Spirit? You do of course agree that it is possible for a baby to have the Holy Spirit don't you?

By the way, I do think from a OSAS standpoint your rational makes total sense. If OSAS is true and what you say is not, then there are two ways of salvation. Of course I don't believe in OSAS but if I did I would have to agree with you.

 

[Heidi]

But Paul clearly says that children raised in a family of believers are sancitified by the belief of their parents. That is what scripture says, Jeff. And I disagree with none of it. Children raised in such a family were raised to believe that Jesus is the only way to God and if they die before they have rejected the word of God, they are clean.

Is what you are saying that children who are born to parents who have the holy spirit have the holy spirit as well? Your posts are actually interesting and do point to the dilema of OSAS and faith alone quite nicely though I doudt you see it.

So if a couple has a child that dies and then they become Christian you say that child is in hell?

No. I don't believe that children born to saved parents have been born again. But jesus said; "And I will ask the father and he will send you the counselor-the Spirit of truth. The world does not accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. Butyou know him for he will be with you and will be in you."

I believe that the Holy Spirit is always with those chosen before the creationof the world but they will only receive the inwelling Spirit when they become born again which requires a conscious decision to repent and ask for forgiveness.

But I have also met many, many people who said they were saved when they were 5,6, or 7 years old. What they did was ask Christ into their lives even if they didn't understand the full rammifications of their choice. So whether or not they received the Holy Spirit, only God knows. But the Holy Spirit is definitely with those chosen before the creation of the world and is what infant baptism is all about. But infant baptism is not the same as being baptized by the Holy Spirit because all atheists I know were baptized as infants. So, as I explained, only those children who grew up being taught that Jesus is the only way to God and who die before rejecting that belief are protected from the anguish of hell.

That is the only interpretation that does not contradict any of Christ's words nor 1 Corinthians 7:13. It seeks to reconcile all of scripture instead of taking one phrase out and cultivating an intepretation that contradicts other scripture.



Why would you think that child is in heaven? :o What scrpitural basis do you have to support that Jesus is not the only way to God? :o Do you think heaven is some sort of magic that happens to people who don't repent? Or how about simply wishful thinking? :o Which is it?

I didn't say they did. Of course I didn't say they didn't either. Please answer my first question. Does the child born to "saved" parents have the Holy Spirit? You do of course agree that it is possible for a baby to have the Holy Spirit don't you?

By the way, I do think from a OSAS standpoint your rational makes total sense. If OSAS is true and what you say is not, then there are two ways of salvation. Of course I don't believe in OSAS but if I did I would have to agree with you.

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, I replied before your quote instead of after it. : I have had more problems with the "debug mode" this morning so am pre-occupied with merely making sure my posts post. That is also why I hesitate to edit them for fear they'll get lost in cyberspace.

 

[thessalonian]

Thanks for your clarification. So it would seem you are in fact saying that any child who dies before an "age of reason" (something that cannot be identified in scripture) go to hell. That they were in fact among the unsaved anyway. Those who are among the saved will be protected from death until they "get saved". Is that accurate.

Thanks.

 

[Heidi]

Thanks for your clarification. So it would seem you are in fact saying that any child who dies before an "age of reason" (something that cannot be identified in scripture) go to hell. That they were in fact among the unsaved anyway. Those who are among the saved will be protected from death until they "get saved". Is that accurate.

Thanks.

No, that is not what I said, Thess. I said that those who are sanctified by their parent(s) belief will not go to hell as 1 Corinthias 7:14 tells us. The Holy Spirit is with them, not necessarily in them. God draws us to him through the Holy Spirit being with us but we are born again of the Spirit when it dwells inside of us.

Paul makes it clear that in 1 Corinthians 7:14, children of a sanctified union will be sanctified and children not of a snctified union will not be sanctified. Again, those are his words not mine. Sometimes I have a hard time believing that children who are called by God to what God prepared in advance for them to do, will die in childhood. But again, only God knows what he prepared for them in advance. One man I know had a child who died and it brough him to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, so his child's death may have been what God used to bring his father to the Lord.

In addition, only God knows what each person's life will be like. It's quite possible that the children he takes in childhood would have had horrific lives that they wouldn't have been able to bear had they lived. Again, only God knows the hearts of men.

 

[thessalonian]

Thanks for the clarification. So a baby born to two christian parents does go to heaven but does not have the Holy Spirit? What if one parent is not christian and the other is?

Thanks again

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Sorry, but heaven is not an entitlement to mankind. It is a gift from God to all those chosen before the creation of the world. And since no one knows who is chosen, then salvation is open to all, but only a few will receive it according to Jesus. "For many are invited but few are chosen."

:o In other words, God is playing a big practical joke on everyone. Nice, very nice Heidi. :-?

So why do you think heaven is an entitlement to us just because we were born? Jesus said "no one is good but God alone." Do you want to qualify that? :o Those are his words, not mine. If you have a problem with them, then criticize him, not me.

when you stand as His spokesman and then deliberately misrespresent His words, you need to be criticized.

No, we are not entitled to heaven but we do have an advocate. I am appauled that you could so quaintly sit back and think that this Advocate would just relegate the babies to eternal suffering when He gave His ALL for them.

I am disgusted that the modern creed church has gotten so far away from the God of Israel that they have invented their own deity and decided what He is about.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Thanks for your clarification. So it would seem you are in fact saying that any child who dies before an "age of reason" (something that cannot be identified in scripture) go to hell. That they were in fact among the unsaved anyway. Those who are among the saved will be protected from death until they "get saved". Is that accurate.

Thanks.

No, that is not what I said, Thess. I said that those who are sanctified by their parent(s) belief will not go to hell as 1 Corinthias 7:14 tells us. The Holy Spirit is with them, not necessarily in them. God draws us to him through the Holy Spirit being with us but we are born again of the Spirit when it dwells inside of us.

Paul makes it clear that in 1 Corinthians 7:14, children of a sanctified union will be sanctified and children not of a snctified union will not be sanctified. Again, those are his words not mine. Sometimes I have a hard time believing that children who are called by God to what God prepared in advance for them to do, will die in childhood. But again, only God knows what he prepared for them in advance. One man I know had a child who died and it brough him to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, so his child's death may have been what God used to bring his father to the Lord.

In addition, only God knows what each person's life will be like. It's quite possible that the children he takes in childhood would have had horrific lives that they wouldn't have been able to bear had they lived. Again, only God knows the hearts of men.

Absolutely disturbing.

So now babies that were unlucky enough (or is it that your maniacal (g)od planned to burn them as eternal firewood?) just have to go and suffer for absolutely NOTHING?

I feel for the day you meet the One you have so disgustingly slandered in here.

Put away your Bible please. You have no idea what it is trying to tell you.

 

[Collier]

Heidi:At least you are willing to stand for what you believe and are willing to discuss those things here. I can only hope that everyone who reads and/or participates in this discussion will do so with an open mind.With that said, let me ask a few questions. 1. Do you believe that God creates babies? 2. If you answer yes, then are you not saying that God created them evil (sinners)? 3. Doesn't the Bible say that God is a just God? 4.Why would God put salvation out of reach for children? Remember, God said we must believe (babies can't).Some have argued in this thread about the possibility that God will save those whom He knew would accept Him and His gift had they lived to be old enough to do so. This may sound good on the surface, but it lacks Biblical support. Here's why!God is all-knowing and knows who will be saved but at the same time He knows when we will die and that certainly means He knows who will die as a child. So it was never part of His plan for this child to live to an age of being held accountable. To teach that God only allows certain people to accept salvation flies in the face of eveything the Bible teaches. God wants all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9; 1 Timothy 2:3-4) and He sent His Son to the world so that everyone could be saved (John 3:16).Before I start getting to far off topic, let me say again to read my previous post and the verses contained therein. God says children are safe and gives us plenty of passages to show us this and who are we to argue with Him?

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, but heaven is not an entitlement to mankind. It is a gift from God to all those chosen before the creation of the world. And since no one knows who is chosen, then salvation is open to all, but only a few will receive it according to Jesus. "For many are invited but few are chosen."

:o In other words, God is playing a big practical joke on everyone. Nice, very nice Heidi. :-?

So why do you think heaven is an entitlement to us just because we were born? Jesus said "no one is good but God alone." Do you want to qualify that? :o Those are his words, not mine. If you have a problem with them, then criticize him, not me.

when you stand as His spokesman and then deliberately misrespresent His words, you need to be criticized.

No, we are not entitled to heaven but we do have an advocate. I am appauled that you could so quaintly sit back and think that this Advocate would just relegate the babies to eternal suffering when He gave His ALL for them.

I am disgusted that the modern creed church has gotten so far away from the God of Israel that they have invented their own deity and decided what He is about.

So I take it you don't care about those in remote parts of the world who haven't heard the word of God, but only children. Is that correct? Because Jesus says clearly that those who do not know their master's will and do things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. That's what he says. Do you think Jesus is uncaring? :o Why do you think we have missions around the world? For our health? :o Why do you think it's so important to teach our children the Word of God? Or do you think it's not important? :o If so, why?

 

[thessalonian]

Let me reiterate what many are ignoring on this thread. Heidi has a point and is being consistent in her faith alone theology. If in fact men are saved by "faith alone" and children cannot have faith as has been argued in many posts against infant baptism, then in fact there are two ways of salvation if children can go to heaven. Once again, I do not believe in FA, so this is not an issue for me. I believe in grace alone. But I do think that some need to face reality on this issue.