Children and heaven

[stovebolts]

Jeff,

Where do you think Muslim children will go when they die? Where do you think children who were raised as Hindi, Jewish, or pagan children will go when they die? Where does the bible say that any of them will go to heaven? :o

I think that God will have mercy on whome he chooses to have mercy upon. It is not my call where they go simply because I know that God is a just and merciful God. Really Heidi, will anything you say change this fact? I didn't think so, so why must you insist that they will burn forever in eternal punishment? What is so hard with answering that simple question?

Lak of compassiion? Do you know how I ache for my children who denounce Christ?

Your children? Please clarify, are you talking about your biological children? Are they grown up? And btw, you never answered my first question. Have you ever lost a living child to the grave?

Do you know how I ache for muslim children, Buddhists' children, atheist children??? Can you possibly imagine? No, you cannot.

Yes Heidi, I can imagine but instead of saying that they are in hell, I find more biblical support that says that it's all in God's good hands.

But I will not disagree with Jesus just because you accuse me of being cold and callous which couldn't be further from the truth!

I did not say that you were cold and callous. I said you lacked compassion. Not once Heidi have you given me your condolences on the loss of my child but instead, you insist that there is the possiblility that my child is probably burning in hell. My God Heidi (and I do not say that slanderously) can you not look outside yourself for one minute? Heidi, if I told you the whole story of the loss of my child, how I left that morning because my wife was going to get an abortion on that very day, and I wouldn't have anything to do with it, so on my way out at 5:30 am I kissed my daughter whom I loved more than anything or anything because I was raised in foster homes and orphanages and later juvenile's and ranches... and all I ever wanted was to be married and have a child...somebody that I could trust... and in a sick way, my salvation from all the pain was gone with the birth of my child... so I get over to my Dad's house around 8 or so and I'm told to go to the hospital... and there I find my baby, dead...
so I go home later, to find an imprint on the couch... my wife had suffocated my daughter. and you know what? I couldnt deal with it... she was still pregnant with my other child.. a child that was conceived christmas eve... and she was saved through the death of my other child... I was lost, confused and I didn't know what to do. Hell had just entered my life. My pain turned to hate... and that's enough for now.

you see, you have no idea... none. You lack compassion because you are so focused on being right, that you won't give and you blind yourself to your own justifications. Heidi, I could sift your words like flour and show you and the rest of the people on this forum how much of a pharasis you are, but you would disagree and be blinded by the rage I'd invoke, so it's not worth it. and heidi, I don't hate or despise you and I dont pity you either. You are who you are.

He says there is only one way to God. But you obviously don't believe him!

If you listened, you would know what I believe... I don't know why I'm writing this...

He also said that anyone who loves his father, mother, or children more than him is not worthy of him.

Yeah, your right... and I loved my first born more than anything, more than myself and more than God. Heidi, my daughter was my salvation, but she was sent to me from God to show me that salvation. And do you know what? I am still being saved thanks to God. amen.

You probably therefore think Jesus is cold and callous also or you wouldn't call me cold and callous for beliving him.

No Heidi, I think that Jesus is rightous and every enemy will be put under his foot stool. I just find it hard to conceive that Jesus would call a child his enemy...

Therefore your judgementalism is is not coming from the Spirit or you would love Christ above children

Is this why my child died heidi? because I loved my child more than Christ at the time? Is this why she is in hell burning... because I, me, uno loved her more than anything or anyone? No, I refuse to believe that and I reject your reasoning. In the same breath, I am filled with sorrow that through the words being written, you will find compassion. I'm not asking for you to change your mind, I'm simply asking you to show compassion and descernment when you post to me because you have no idea, nor could you for some of the people on this forum and what they, we have went through. suddenly, I am reminded by the words of Christ... Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. After all, when Saul, before he was Paul persecuted the Christians and he really thought he was doing God's will. In the same light, that guy that was throwing rocks at David was also speaking God's word and David allowed it too.

Good by heidi. I think I've said enough. May peace indwell within you.

for the rest, sorry if I've distrubed you. the story is over for me.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Stove,

I am only sorry that you had to wade through this hateful tripe that was posted here. I know very well that your beautiful child is being held close by the loving arms of the Redeemer.

Hell is not even a real concept but a faulty translation.

Regardless, to think that God would relegate such a perfect innocence to eternal flame is disgusting and would make Him something I could never worship or want to spend even one day with. I am so glad this is not the case.

Also, to think that God would punish an innocent baby for being born into the family He put them into is ludicrous.

God loves all people and to say otherwise is to spit in the face of all that Jesus came for. And He certainly came for your child. I pray for you to have peace of heart until the day you reunite with her in the presence of the One who saved both of you.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I wonder if this dirty sinner would smile so much if he knew how hot the flames are he is going to endure forever and ever!?!!

 

[Lyric's Dad]

DOUBLE POSTED IN MY ANGER AT THE UNREPENTANT BABY!!!!

 

[stovebolts]

Lyric's Dad,

Please, do not let your anger consume you, remain rightous in your anger and have mercy on Heidi as the Lord will have mercy on you when the day comes.

Although I lost my child around 17 years ago, I did not think that I would be as emotional as I got and I certainly didn't think I'd recal the even in a public forum. Friday nite was horrible for me and I was really caught off guard, yet I found my rest in Christ... By Monday, I was feeling a bit better.

Just to clean a few things up, Heidi, I should have said, "Being LIKE" a pharasis, because your not a pharasis, but we can all act like one at times.

For the rest of you, I got a divorce from that woman and am now blessed beyond mesure with my current wife and we share a fantastic child together.

Lyric's Dad, for me, sometimes it's better for me to just know, than to push my belief's on sombody that won't accept them anyway. But then, that's just me.

Take care Brother.

Jeff

 

[AVBunyan]

Children

Here is my take – I admit it is a rough one for two reasons: First – Scriptures don’t come right out and make it easy for you – you gotta’ dig. Second – rough because of my final conclusion, which will cause some here to blow a gasket and strip out your clutch plates.

Let’s go and see what the book says:
We know that because of Adam death is passed upon all men – Rom. 5:11 - so we all know the 2 yr old (Let’s say Jenny) is going to die because of Adam – a given.

But it doesn’t stop there because Eph. 2:1 our 2 yr old who was dead in trespasses and sins: - So, she is in her sins so…if we stopped right now where would Jenny go? She would go to hell like everybody else for we were all born in the same, dead state.

But God is rich in mercy and won’t necessarily leave us there. Let’s go further. Can Jenny, choose to accept Christ? No, she doesn’t understand and she is also “dead†– and according to Rom. 3:1-19 and Matt. 8:22 and II Cor. 4:3 she is blinded and dead to truth so she can’t choose God. So where does that leave us? Three options:


1. Popular view – not accountable so God in grace takes little Jenny home – just not sure – could be a principle here and many hope this is so – though I like it.

2. God, in grace, saves those whom cannot make that choice because of mental illness, sickness, youth, etc. – similar to Take 1 and sounds good and I like this also, but…

3. God chose Jenny from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) and Jenny is safe because it was according to the good pleasure of God’s will (Eph. 1:5). If she were not chosen she would have gone to hell. In other words all were born to die and then go to a lake of fire because of sin and God chose to save some out of mercy.

Now, here is the crux of the matter. If Jenny went to hell because she was born dead in trespasses in sins and God didn’t save here would God be wrong? Go ahead and tell me God was wrong. Can God sin and do wrong? Here is where some of you have to face something here – regardless of how God worked it out with Jenny (and others) is God still God? I read my Bible and God is perfect, holy, and just and can no nothing other than be perfect, holy, and just because that is His essence.

My take – I subscribe to #3 because dead men can’t choose God. If #1 were right then that discounts the fact that she was dead in trespasses and sins and by not being able to choose anyway wouldn’t make any difference for she was doomed regardless of her choice. The dead in trespasses cancels out her choosing. But if it were # 1 I wouldn’t fall apart I just think there are some “gapsâ€Â.

Now, I told you what I think and believe – I didn’t say you could take that to the bank. I’m still studying and praying about the issue.

Now here is where it gets ugly – some of you have to come to grips that “your choosing God†didn’t save you. Your “belief†in the gospel of I Cor. 15:15 didn’t regenerate you. Do you know what saved you? Christ saved you because of what He did at Calvary. The thinking today is that that “little good spark†in you gets fanned by the gospel and you choose God because of that “spark of good†that is left in you so...You made a choice to get saved. This is where you people who think you can loose it get your bad start. You think because you “chose†God that you can “unchoose†God. You started off wrong so your whole Christian life and securities is based upon your “choosings†in life and have left God’s sovereignty out of it.

So, here is how you get a peace about Jenny’s fate: You have to trust God and live by faith. This is also takes care of, â€ÂWhat about the heathen in Africa?â€Â

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Our duty is to be a faithful instrument in the hands of God, pray for them give, them the gospel, and leave the results to God who will do right despite us!

God is going to do right because He can’t do wrong – because we many times don’t understand why God does things doesn’t give us the excuse to question God. I know that sounds rough to some of you but you have to start with God’s holiness and your depravity and you will see that you are in a mess with no way out and only then will God show you Christ and his completeness.

I leave you with two Bible descriptions of your state without Christ:

Psa 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Do you know what your left with?

John 15:5…for without me ye can do nothing.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Flee to Christ, flee to Christ, flee to Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!

May God bless

 

[mutzrein]

This is an issue which this and other threads seem to wrestle with. In fact there is much that many can’t seem to come to terms with regarding predestination – whatever side of the fence you sit. Sure we can believe in a heaven reserved for the ‘elect’ by why is it we believe the rest are condemned to hell?

Consider perhaps the most quoted verse in the bible, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.†Everlasting life is not the issue – we can grasp that (well maybe), but perishing seems to have been interpreted to mean eternal suffering in hell. ie ‘everlasting life in hell’ Why?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

This is an issue which this and other threads seem to wrestle with. In fact there is much that many can’t seem to come to terms with regarding predestination – whatever side of the fence you sit. Sure we can believe in a heaven reserved for the ‘elect’ by why is it we believe the rest are condemned to hell?

Consider perhaps the most quoted verse in the bible, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.†Everlasting life is not the issue – we can grasp that (well maybe), but perishing seems to have been interpreted to mean eternal suffering in hell. ie ‘everlasting life in hell’ Why?

Because of the distortions of men and faulty translations of the Bible.

 

[mutzrein]

This is an issue which this and other threads seem to wrestle with. In fact there is much that many can’t seem to come to terms with regarding predestination – whatever side of the fence you sit. Sure we can believe in a heaven reserved for the ‘elect’ by why is it we believe the rest are condemned to hell?

Consider perhaps the most quoted verse in the bible, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.†Everlasting life is not the issue – we can grasp that (well maybe), but perishing seems to have been interpreted to mean eternal suffering in hell. ie ‘everlasting life in hell’ Why?

Because of the distortions of men and faulty translations of the Bible.

I agree but how do we know that what WE believe is not based on the distortions of men and faulty translations. Now I accept that anyone would be a fool to believe something that they knew was false and everyone claims to have the 'truth' in terms of biblical understanding but of course not everyone has the truth do they.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

This is an issue which this and other threads seem to wrestle with. In fact there is much that many can’t seem to come to terms with regarding predestination – whatever side of the fence you sit. Sure we can believe in a heaven reserved for the ‘elect’ by why is it we believe the rest are condemned to hell?

Consider perhaps the most quoted verse in the bible, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.†Everlasting life is not the issue – we can grasp that (well maybe), but perishing seems to have been interpreted to mean eternal suffering in hell. ie ‘everlasting life in hell’ Why?

Because of the distortions of men and faulty translations of the Bible.

I agree but how do we know that what WE believe is not based on the distortions of men and faulty translations. Now I accept that anyone would be a fool to believe something that they knew was false and everyone claims to have the 'truth' in terms of biblical understanding but of course not everyone has the truth do they.

That is why we need the leading of the Holy Spirit and not the creeds of men. Oh, and modern day revelation does not hurt either!

 

[mutzrein]

Ah, the leading of the Holy Spirit and modern day revelation! Wonderful! And I agree, but if what you say disagrees with what I say (or vice versa), who do you say has the leading of the Holy Spirit and revelation?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Ah, the leading of the Holy Spirit and modern day revelation! Wonderful! And I agree, but if what you say disagrees with what I say (or vice versa), who do you say has the leading of the Holy Spirit and revelation?

Well me of course! :-D

 

[stovebolts]

Good Post AVBunyan,
Although I disagree with OSAS, I can better understand the theology from this perspective.

Let me ask you this, and I by no means want to debate, I just want your input.

In Option 3, you state:
In other words all were born to die and then go to a lake of fire because of sin and God chose to save some out of mercy.

I have been searching the Bible, and perhaps I just havn't found it yet... and please know that this is an honest question and I would really like to find the answer, perhaps it's starring me in the face, yet I can't see it.

Here goes.

I find many places where ones name would be blotted out of the book of life, but I don't, havn't found where one's name is actually placed in the book. So, if logic is correct, you are thrown into the lake of fire if your name isn't found in the book of life... would it be safe to say that there isn't any biblical support for a childs name being blotted out or , have I missed a verse somewhere or, am I putting too much emphasis on the book of life?

Please know that I have never ardently studied the afterlife, but instead focused on getting by day by day. Last week we did a bible study on Matthew 23, and something referenced this verse... and it hit me. What do you think about this verse?

Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and infants have you ordained strength because of your enemies, that you might still the enemy and the avenger.

 

[mutzrein]

Ah, the leading of the Holy Spirit and modern day revelation! Wonderful! And I agree, but if what you say disagrees with what I say (or vice versa), who do you say has the leading of the Holy Spirit and revelation?

Well me of course! :-D

Tongue in cheek of course . . . but it sounds like you and you alone believe yourself to be the 'spiritual man' judging everyone elses position of no account since their revelation does not agree with yours. Let me put it this way. Would you concede that somone else could have revelation of the Holy Spirit that is outside the realm of your understanding? Or do you know everything and have you received from God all that he desires to reveal to man?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Ah, the leading of the Holy Spirit and modern day revelation! Wonderful! And I agree, but if what you say disagrees with what I say (or vice versa), who do you say has the leading of the Holy Spirit and revelation?

Well me of course! :-D

Tongue in cheek of course . . . but it sounds like you and you alone believe yourself to be the 'spiritual man' judging everyone elses position of no account since their revelation does not agree with yours. Let me put it this way. Would you concede that somone else could have revelation of the Holy Spirit that is outside the realm of your understanding? Or do you know everything and have you received from God all that he desires to reveal to man?

Oh, I have very little of myself. I know how in need of God I am and know that I do not have the answers. I only know when the Spirit speaks to me and helps me to know right from wrong.

No, I am not on a pedestal and know that I am prone to many mistakes. I will embrace and seek after all that is good and do not have any pre-conceived notions of where that will come from, except from the Lord.

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks Lyric's Dad - I appreciate the way that was said. Wouldn't it be good if we could all share those sentiments.

If I can go back to the comment you made that gave rise to this exchange which was, "Because of the distortions of men and faulty translations of the Bible."

Did you have anything specific in mind in regard to the words I said - that prompted your comment?

Regards

 

[Scott]

Did you have anything specific in mind in regard to the words I said - that prompted your comment?

I can answer that fairly easily for you. Its the result namelessly introducing cultic doctrines into a discussion. For example, lets take a look at a few things here.

Hell is not even a real concept but a faulty translation.

Because of the distortions of men and faulty translations of the Bible.

And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

Notice any patterns here? We have clear Mormon doctrines along with a passage from the Book of Mormon itself. So what do we have? We have a Mormon who's slipped in among us and is trying to debate in a Christian Apologetics forum despite the fact that he apparently has no confidence in God's Word to begin with.

 

[duncdawg]

In response to the very first post on this thread...that children go to hell, or something...a statement which is not true.

We will be judged on what we know and dont do, not our ignorance. Children will not be judged for what they dont know.

Luke 18:16 - "Jesus called them back. "Let these children alone. Don't get between them and me. These children are the kingdom's pride and joy.""

Mark 10:14 - "The disciples shooed them off. But Jesus was irate and let them know it: "Don't push these children away. Don't ever get between them and me. These children are at the very center of life in the kingdom."

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Good Post AVBunyan,

2. Although I disagree with OSAS, I can better understand the theology from this perspective.

3. …would it be safe to say that there isn't any biblical support for a childs name being blotted out or , have I missed a verse somewhere or, am I putting too much emphasis on the book of life?

4. What do you think about this verse? Psalms 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and infants have you ordained strength because of your enemies, that you might still the enemy and the avenger.

1. Thank ye kindly

2. OSAS is not the issue – we disagree on how a sinner is justified before God. The issue is justification. How one views the issue of justification determines his view on this OSAS issue.

3. To be honest – just not sure here. Because one cannot find where a child is blotted out doesn’t mean they are not. The book of life could be associated with Israel and works may be related which rules out being doctrinally for the body of Christ though a reference can be found in Philippians and even there those folks referred to could have been Jews not associated with the body of Christ – just not sure. The fact that you find the book of life in Revelation, especially the great white throne, hints at it not being for the body of Christ today.

4. Again, just not sure – there may not be any hidden meaning here.

Wasn’t much help here, huh?

God bless 8-)

 

[mutzrein]

Notice any patterns here? . . .

Thanks for that Scott. Typically I ask a few questions to better understand a premise so you might have saved me the trouble.