5000 shekels of brass - half an ounce to a shekel = 156.4 lbs
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Bible Study Children of Seth?
- Thread starter daninthelionsden
- Start date
5000 shekels of brass - half an ounce to a shekel = 156.4 lbs
dianegcook
Member
I believe that is no comparison, to what I stated.
There are 2 advents.
Jesus comes in flesh, rejected as the Messiah, gospel to the Gentiles...
Second time with vengeance.
I think that even Judas thought He (Messiah) would set up His Kingdom on earth, as most of the Jews.
Including John the Baptist.
dianegcook
Member
The moon isn't made of cheese?My goodness, you're all over the place here. It seems to me that if you think all these verses are related to the preexistence idea, then I would say emphatically that you're taking them out of context, and presuming a pretext into them. So yes, I still reject that idea. You can believe the moon is made of cheese if you want, but it doesn't make it true.
TD
2
Edward
2024 Supporter
Sure, which post of mine would you like me to post the references for? I will.
Be advised that my source is scripture. I will post the citations for them. I didn't post them before because I was talking with ForHisGlory, who is well acquainted with scripture and my thought was that surely she knows these scriptures already.
There are teachings and videos from respected teachers and pastors which helped to point me in the right direction on this topic, but having did my homework on it I feel as if I can go by scripture. If you like, I can chase down some different videos that I have seen and post them also for your perusal...??
dianegcook
Member
Hi kurseez and welcome to CF
Jesus was never an angel of light nor is He an angel. He was/is the the word of God from the beginning that brings life as being a light that shines in the darkness of men, John 1:1-14.
Satan is very deceptive, 1 Peter 5:8, as he deceives the mind of those who do not walk in obedience to God's commands. It is a narrow path to follow, but if we are led by the Holy Spirit that path is made easy to follow, but flesh will always try to knock us off that path if we allow it to.
There is nothing wrong with watching TV or playing video games as long as they do not distract you from fellowship with the Lord as He comes first in all things we do and say, but this needs to be another topic if you would like to start one in the Bible Study forum.
Edward
2024 Supporter
FHG, if I'm wrong then I am not above learning and acknowledging my error. But I do have to be able to comprehend the truth and wherein was my mistake. We all must be careful to not, uh, force the text to say what we want it to. The answers and the truth is within scripture and most times it takes some effort and study to put it together. That said, I'm having very much difficulty wrapping my mind around how you said that in scripture that fallen angels are the same as demons and unclean spirits. We know that God is not the author of confusion, so why would He call fallen angels demons or spirits and so forth when it makes it sound like other types of beings altogether?
I've spent a little time in my strongs lately looking up different scriptures and words used in them which relate to our discussion. I would think that if demons and fallen angels are the same thing, then the words would go back to the same word in the original language which defines fallen angels. This transliteration does occur at times in scripture depending on which translation and passage is being read. So it is possible, and yet...it does not seem to be the case here. So I'm going to need some help from you to understand your conclusion.
In 2 Peter 2:4 it talks about the fallen angels...
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;.../
"Angels" (G32) aggelos --Angels, messengers from God.
Luke 10:20 says,
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.../
Now the word "spirits" here has it's usage laid out in the Strongs.
Spirits (G4151)
III. a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
A. a life giving spirit
B. a human soul that has left the body
C. a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1. used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2. the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ.../(Strongs)
It is not showing the usage of demons or evil spirits along with Angels, but separately. So what do I do with this? It is but one example and I will surely list more if you wish. So would you mind expounding upon your position to help me to understand this and wherein is my mistake, if any? Angels in Greek is (G32), Spirits in Greek is (G4151), not the same. Demons goes to even an entirely different entry also, so I can not easily just lump all fallen angels and demons together. I believe it is easy to see that they are different.
I've spent a little time in my strongs lately looking up different scriptures and words used in them which relate to our discussion. I would think that if demons and fallen angels are the same thing, then the words would go back to the same word in the original language which defines fallen angels. This transliteration does occur at times in scripture depending on which translation and passage is being read. So it is possible, and yet...it does not seem to be the case here. So I'm going to need some help from you to understand your conclusion.
In 2 Peter 2:4 it talks about the fallen angels...
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;.../
"Angels" (G32) aggelos --Angels, messengers from God.
Luke 10:20 says,
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.../
Now the word "spirits" here has it's usage laid out in the Strongs.
Spirits (G4151)
III. a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
A. a life giving spirit
B. a human soul that has left the body
C. a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1. used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2. the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ.../(Strongs)
It is not showing the usage of demons or evil spirits along with Angels, but separately. So what do I do with this? It is but one example and I will surely list more if you wish. So would you mind expounding upon your position to help me to understand this and wherein is my mistake, if any? Angels in Greek is (G32), Spirits in Greek is (G4151), not the same. Demons goes to even an entirely different entry also, so I can not easily just lump all fallen angels and demons together. I believe it is easy to see that they are different.
Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39). Only God can incarnate them for the purpose of His ministry here on earth, Genesis 18:2-8.
The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of
heaven (Mark 13:32). But, the angel we call Satan who has been given many names rebelled against God as he became prideful and wanted everything that was God's as he wanted to be God , Ezekiel
28:13-17. Within his rebellion he also took a third of the angels who followed after Him and cast them down to the earth, Rev 12:3, 4. These angels oppose God under the leadership of Satan as being
his messengers here on earth as they too are created spirits of God that is why God could never destroy any of them because a spirit can not die. (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1: 6; Ephesians
6:12). We often call these types of angels demons/devils/evil spirits/unclean spirits for which an everlasting fire is prepared by God for Satan and these angels, Matthew 25:41.
The term demon comes from the Greek "daimon". Demons are also called evil spirits, unclean spirits and devils in scripture as they are disembodied spirits as angels have no form. The use of the terminology of demons, evil spirits, unclean spirits and devils are interchangeable in scripture as they all mean the same thing. They exist in a demonic realm as principalities, Romans 8:38, 39; Ephesians 6:12, and have a hierarchy of rulership controlled by Satan as being his messengers, Matthew 12:22-30; Mark 3:22; Luke 4:35. They have no physical form, but can viciously posses a body, Matthew 8:16-31; 12:43-45. Demons are numerous in numbering and can also speak like the Legion (2000) of unclean spirits in Mark 5:9.
Strong's Concordance: Demon
Part of speech: noun masculine
Transliteration: daimon
Definition: a demon
Usage: evil spirit, demon
Edward
2024 Supporter
With all due respect, this is not true, Sister. Angels can materialize and always appear as men. They have taken people by the hand (Genesis 19:10), they ate meals with men (Genesis 18:8), they even engaged in physical combat on earth (2 Kings 19:35, Isaiah 37:36) and in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 we can see that not only is Satan himself able to transform into an Angel of light, but so are his minions...(v 15)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.../
I notice that in your post you did not address my post and expound on how you came to these conclusions that you have, but merely stated your beliefs. I believe that in discussions such as ours that in order to establish the truth and figure out who is wrong, that we both should be able to suspend our preconceived notions and enter the discussion with an open mind. I expressed my willingness to do this, myself, but will you also, for the sake of discussion?
Angels in scripture are very active and able to do many things. Whereas demons seem to not be able to do very much at all beyond being able to possess someone. They are constantly seeking embodiment and were regularly cast out by Jesus. So, again, if you can explain (scripturally) why you believe what you do, I am very interested in reading it.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Now, I do agree that Angels can not die it would seem from scripture. But that leaves us in a quandry here...
In Isaiah 26:13-14 it says:
13 O Lord our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.../
Who is dead here? Who shall not live? Who was destroyed?
If Angels can not die, then...who did?
I believe that this is speaking of the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. They will not rise and were killed in the flood. They can not be redeemed and rise to eternal life because they are hybrids...that makes sense to me. If I am wrong, then what does this passage mean? Please correct me.
In Isaiah 26:13-14 it says:
13 O Lord our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.../
Who is dead here? Who shall not live? Who was destroyed?
If Angels can not die, then...who did?
I believe that this is speaking of the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim. They will not rise and were killed in the flood. They can not be redeemed and rise to eternal life because they are hybrids...that makes sense to me. If I am wrong, then what does this passage mean? Please correct me.
I agree that angels come down to earth in human form, but yet it is only God who can transform them as humans that we can see as they are only spirits without form. This is why it is said in Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
As far as Satan transforming himself into an angel of light we have to understand the meaning of the word light in 2 Corinthians 11:14. Darkness and light are metaphors for good and evil as we can see throughout scripture like in James 1:17 as light is a metaphor for truth and God's unchanging nature. John 1:5 the light being Christ in His nature of goodness shines in darkness as darkness represents evil and evil is the nature of Satan.
Satan, being a created angel/spirit disguises himself as an angel of light who plays on our love of the light (goodness of Christ) as he deceives others into thinking he is good, truthful, loving and powerful like that of God's attributes. He does this by using false prophets and deceitful workers of iniquity to blind those from the true Christ and His disciples meaning all who are in Christ and he in them.
Satan appears as an angel of light to draw others to him and the lust of this world. People unaware follow him to their own destruction not allowing themselves to know the love of Christ and eternal life with the Father.
As to the rest of your post I thought we were discussing that of what we believe and that I did address your post by giving that of what and how I believe by using scripture as I do not come with preconceived notions and my mind is always opened to learn things I yet have understanding of. This has nothing to do with who is right or wrong, but that of what and how each of us believe. I have given all I can with scripture and definitions of words as I don't know what more I can give that I already gave without repeating myself over and over.
Edward, with all do respect as my brother in the Lord Isaiah chapter 26 has nothing to do with angels as this chapter is all about Israel praising God for delivering them from the pain of their enemies as God slew all of them as in the various kings and their armies that have formerly come against Israel. They sing a new song unto God as He has increased their nation.
Again, we differ in who Nephilim are and what seems to make sense by how others teach certain things. Many take it for granite that what comes from the pulpit (like I use to do) is truth for after all, these are our Pastors and they should know what they are talking about, but many never search out what scripture truly says.
I too use to believe Nephilim were fallen angels as being sons of God in Genesis 6:1-5 and I only took it as truth because this is what was taught from the pulpit. It wasn't until a few years ago I was reading those scriptures and I started questioning who the sons of God really were as those teachings just weren't setting well with me in knowing angels are only created spirit beings who can not procreate and only God can incarnate them as His messengers for the purpose of His ministry here on earth.
Many things seem to make sense to me, but yet bring a certain curiosity and it is those things I learned to thoroughly search out within the scriptures. I'm not saying I am always right as I have been proven wrong a few times as the Holy Spirit sends correction through another that has more knowledge then I do.
It seems like you and I are just going to have to disagree, but yet we still walk in love for each other as we are ever learning.
Edward
2024 Supporter
I don't understand that. If Satan can transform into an Angel of light but he is evil, and Angels can not materialize as men without God's power and directive, then it kind of sounds like satan can do more than the good Angels can? That kind of would not make sense. Unless I'm missing something or misunderstood?
It's not that Satan can physically transform himself, but also has an unholy trinity of Dragon, Beast and False Prophet, Rev 12; 13; 16:13, as he works through others to deceive the world into thinking the beast and false prophets are the light of Christ, Matthew 24:11, 23, 24.
In examining the context of the statement made by the apostle Paul, the point he is making concerns people who teach false ideas. Satan's messengers appear like good teachers teaching God's word, but their false ideas lead people astray. It's not the 90% they teach as truth, but the 10% false is what makes them "Satan's messengers." If everything they said was false, no one would listen; but the falsehood is intertwined among Bible verses quoted and commonly known truth.
So, Paul doesn't elaborate on what that "angel of light" looks or sounds like. To Jesus, it sounded like "turn these stones into bread" or Peter's rebuke "that won't happen to you."
TD
dianegcook
Member
I disagree about Spirits can not die.
Those verses you had given says nothing of them not being able to die.
The Spirit is the intellect of the soul.
Matt.10:28 states that He can destroy body and soul.
Just curious,
What is your take on 1Cor.11:10?
I believe angels were also created in God's image with His attributes, but no one can truly say what they look like other than being immortal beings which can never die, but yet will also be judged in God's final judgement. It's like humans in a sense that their spirit can never die as when a human dies their breath/spirit/soul returns back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7, Ecc 12:7.
The spirit is not the intellect of the soul, but only the breath that made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. Ruach, the Hebrew word for spirit here, means "breath" or "wind" as well as "spirit". The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. When this physical body dies the breath/spirit and soul returns back to God. I think even angels have souls, Luke 15:10; 2 Samuel 14:20; Psalms 103:20. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state of God's final judgement, John 5:28, 29. Breath/Spirit/soul are all connected and when this physical body dies the breath/spirit/soul returns back to God, 2 Corinthians 5:8.
1 Corinthians 11:10 A man has Spiritual authority over a woman within the church and at home as women are to be submissive to this Spiritual authority. Some women in Paul's day gave prophecy in the assembling as the power on her head or in other words what she spoke was given to her by the angels being messengers of God. It's like that of John in Revelations where Jesus sent the angel unto him as a messenger to speak to him and show him all those visions. It was Christ who gave to the angel what to speak to John and show him these visions.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Good morning, this is getting interesting, huh? I believe you all are dancing all around it and this is something I have been chewing on myself for awhile now also and I do not yet have it all thoroughly comprehended yet but have been piecing it together. Where In at with it is...I *think* that we must not believe with from our intellect and (perhaps) our intellect will never be able to believe because it is flesh and is unable to receive the spiritual truths of God because it is flesh and so we must believe from our heart and when we do this and believe from our heart, many times the intellect will begin freaking out and usually screaming no it is not true, it is not logical or even rational, that was no miracle, or that is not truth blah blah blah, and he very well may make sense on some level because the intellect is what we are used to using and most were never taught how to stand in belief from our heart, and so it can be easy to slip into unbelief in your heart by accident so to speak by even listening or considering what the intellect is saying. so we ignore must ignore him and rise above the intellect to simply believe from your heart and trust the Lord. This is an act of faith and what our Lord responds to for this is what he does.
Many times when this is happening to me I find myself saying I trust you Jesus, I trust you Jesus, I trust you Jesus...and this, I believe is becoming as a child and not needing to understand and rationalize but simply trusting in your daddy and believing with a simple faith in Him for whatever the situation may be at that time. And this is, I think not leaning upon our own understanding, which is what we are supposed to be doing, right? And in this way, we are being led of the spirit as we should be...?? I think.
this pretty much makes good sense to me and agrees with much of our scripture, but the perplexing thing to me about it comes out of the Gospel of Thomas book but is related to this topic somehow and it says something about when the two become one and agree then umm we enter heaven or have a breakthrough or something like that it's been a little while since I read it but I think it may have been talking about how our spirit and soul finally agree somehow I think and that is what I don't get because for them to come into agreement and become one then how because I thought scripture said that one side of us is unable to receive the spiritual things. So I dunno I may have to continue chewing on it for awhile and go read it again.
Many times when this is happening to me I find myself saying I trust you Jesus, I trust you Jesus, I trust you Jesus...and this, I believe is becoming as a child and not needing to understand and rationalize but simply trusting in your daddy and believing with a simple faith in Him for whatever the situation may be at that time. And this is, I think not leaning upon our own understanding, which is what we are supposed to be doing, right? And in this way, we are being led of the spirit as we should be...?? I think.
this pretty much makes good sense to me and agrees with much of our scripture, but the perplexing thing to me about it comes out of the Gospel of Thomas book but is related to this topic somehow and it says something about when the two become one and agree then umm we enter heaven or have a breakthrough or something like that it's been a little while since I read it but I think it may have been talking about how our spirit and soul finally agree somehow I think and that is what I don't get because for them to come into agreement and become one then how because I thought scripture said that one side of us is unable to receive the spiritual things. So I dunno I may have to continue chewing on it for awhile and go read it again.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Wow guess what I accidentally found last night. StoveBolts asked for my source and references of what I had been saying earlier. I could not remember exactly where I had heard and read about the Angel topic and the Sethite view. And I didn't remember all the time exactly where. Over time I learn a little here, a little there and put the pieces together, and I think over time all of it comes together within me and becomes a part of me within and then its not like I try to remember exactly but since I put the info into me, then the Holy Spirit is able to come and bring it back to our remembrance for us at the proper times. It's like a partnership, lol. We input it and He then uses it through us at His will. Anyway, suddenly it was in my favorites and I dont even recall when I put it there, and of course it is not complete but is a good read on our very topic, so...here it is for your perusal and enjoy!
www.khouse.org
We must remember that hen we read scripture passages that it should always agree with all of the rest of the entirety of scriptures and it will either shine light and agree with with them or it will not and thererin is our clue to the our proper approach of the ultimate search for our Lord and His truths and righteousness in our lives and growth.
Ohhh, I had such a strange and yet great day yesterday. It was up and down and bad and good to very good and it was such a strange order of events which happened to me and the Lord certainly had His hand in it! but it ended story good. Long story but I think I passed it and the Lord is soo good!
Mischievous Angels or Sethites? | Koinonia House
Why did God send the judgment of the Flood in the days of Noah? Far more than simply a historical issue, the unique events leading to the Flood are a prerequisite to understanding the prophetic implications of our Lord's predictions regarding His Second Coming.
We must remember that hen we read scripture passages that it should always agree with all of the rest of the entirety of scriptures and it will either shine light and agree with with them or it will not and thererin is our clue to the our proper approach of the ultimate search for our Lord and His truths and righteousness in our lives and growth.
Ohhh, I had such a strange and yet great day yesterday. It was up and down and bad and good to very good and it was such a strange order of events which happened to me and the Lord certainly had His hand in it! but it ended story good. Long story but I think I passed it and the Lord is soo good!
Our flesh can not receive the things of the spirit for they are enemies against it other. With studying anything from the scriptures we must first pray and ask the Holy Spirit to open our Spiritual eyes and ears to understand what is being taught to us.
The carnal mind wants to rationalize, pick apart and come up with it's own reasoning and when we allow the carnal to study this way then we receive nothing from the Holt Spirit.
As for me I take studying very serious and hopefully am listening to the Holy Spirit as I am taken from word to word, scripture to scripture and OT to NT. I'm not saying I am always right, but what I present is my belief of what the scriptures speak of. In my 40 years of studying if I am wrong the Holy Spirit always corrects me by using others with a greater Spiritual knowledge than I to show me my error.
This is why we discuss scripture among us to help us grow into areas of knowledge we have missed and we do this in unity of love, not a right or wrong approach towards each other. It is always good to show your sources as like me I am not going to just take someone's word for what they say, but want to go study their sources. There is no shame in respectfully disagreeing with each other at times as we are ever learning.
The carnal mind wants to rationalize, pick apart and come up with it's own reasoning and when we allow the carnal to study this way then we receive nothing from the Holt Spirit.
As for me I take studying very serious and hopefully am listening to the Holy Spirit as I am taken from word to word, scripture to scripture and OT to NT. I'm not saying I am always right, but what I present is my belief of what the scriptures speak of. In my 40 years of studying if I am wrong the Holy Spirit always corrects me by using others with a greater Spiritual knowledge than I to show me my error.
This is why we discuss scripture among us to help us grow into areas of knowledge we have missed and we do this in unity of love, not a right or wrong approach towards each other. It is always good to show your sources as like me I am not going to just take someone's word for what they say, but want to go study their sources. There is no shame in respectfully disagreeing with each other at times as we are ever learning.