[_ Old Earth _] Chimps and humans: How similar are we really?

[Milk-Drops]

Better yet, were apes ever humans?

That's similar to asking if cats were ever tabbies, one is the name of a group and one is a species within a group.

Some who are deluded or persuaded may think so...OR were any humans ever apes?

For classification all humans are part of the group known as apes.

Some deluded or persuaded may think so....

Those who understand taxonomic structure classify humans as part of the ape group.

some think apes are humans and should be given inalienable rights....

ok

others think humans are apes and oh well we can only feel sad for them and pray....

I'll never understand why it's so sad to acknowledge that for the sake of phylogeny and taxonomy that is where humans fit. It doesn't hurt anything, it's like calling nails hardware, it's literally just a classification.

But yes MD Jesus was human....YHVH became flesh and tabernacled with men...and that MAN was named Jesus. Now though I doubt you believe that, to ask if a historically verified person was ever human is a little strange even for you

Test asked how Jesus fits in and I wanted to know if Test ever thought Jesus was human.

 

[Barbarian]

Some

Better yet, were apes ever humans?

Some of us are. An entire genus, Homo.

Put aside your pride. After all, Christ is God, and was willing to become the same biological entity as we are. If He could so humble himself, it won't hurt any of us to admit the truth.

 

[brother Paul]

Let Him know you think He became an ape when you meet Him...He'll get a good laugh!

 

[Milk-Drops]

Let Him know you think He became an ape when you meet Him...He'll get a good laugh!

What are you talking about? Jesus didn't become an ape, if Jesus ever existed in human form, he would have had the body of Human that is part of the group known as ape.

We are at the point where this is becoming silly. Ape is just a classification for all organisms that share a genetic pastern. Thats it. Its like being an American, but also being called North American because the USA is part of the North American Continent. Yet people get mad because that would put them in the same group as Mexicans and Canadians.

Do you see how silly this looks to someone looking in? To me its the same thing because being part of the Ape group changes zilch about humanity.


Personally, If Jesus exists he probably thinks most people that get hung up on this arbitrary stuff is funnier than anyone ever being classified as an ape.

Is this place that anti science that we have to argue over classifications that don't impact Christianity at all?

 

[Barbarian]

Paul thinks that God would be less insulted if we pretended that humans aren't apes. I'm sure He's having a good laugh over that.

 

[brother Paul]

Ape is just a classification for all organisms that share a genetic pastern. Thats it.

They use to be a separate classification until they realized they had to change it so it would support the hypothesis. Until then no scientists believed humans were apes (even after for a long time).

 

[brother Paul]

Paul thinks that God would be less insulted if we pretended that humans aren't apes. I'm sure He's having a good laugh over that.

He knows they are not. He has no need to convince people. You are free to believe whatever comes down the pike.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Ape is just a classification for all organisms that share a genetic pastern. Thats it.

They use to be a separate classification

You mean the 1500s when Taxonomy was invented by a Christian who was only going by Homology at the time. Humans have been classed as apes for hundreds of years.

until they realized they had to change it

No, Linnaeus classed us as apes due to our physical proportions and genetics eventually confirmed it. Its not some conspiracy, its legit science. Who are these "they" you are referring to?

so it would support the hypothesis.

Except the whole few hundred year gap between humans being classed as apes and Darwin penning the Origin of Species or Mendal noticing the anomalies with his pea plants. That is the biggest crux in your conspiracy theory there.

Until then no scientists believed humans were apes (even after for a long time).

Accept Linnaeus and those that studied Taxonomy for the last 400 to 500 years.

 

[brother Paul]

Its like being an American, but also being called North American because the USA is part of the North American Continent.

No! Its like calling a whale a bear. But they are actually each a separate unrelated creatures, even though in recent times some "scientists" are "interpreting" some aspects to imply they are more one kind than two. Many already accepting the hypothesis have jumped to accept this trash and who knows maybe they will convince the many but that does not make it true. And I am not "anti-science", I am against believing one must interpret through the lens of the hypothesis (that goes for what Barbarian calls "creationists" as well even though he/she believes in creation)

 

[Barbarian]

They use to be a separate classification until they realized they had to change it so it would support the hypothesis. Until then no scientists believed humans were apes (even after for a long time).

In fact, from the start, scientists knew humans were apes. The man (Linnaeus, a creationist) who first demonstrated the nested hierarchy of taxa (which we now know only happens in cases of common descent) admitted that he should have included man with the apes, but that he was worried about criticism from religious leaders.

I demand of you, and of the whole world, that you show me a generic character—one that is according to generally accepted principles of classification, by which to distinguish between Man and Ape. I myself most assuredly know of none. ...But, if I had called man an ape, or vice versa, I should have fallen under the ban of all the ecclesiastics. It may be that as a naturalist I ought to have done so.
Carol Linnaeus, Letter to J. G. Gmelin (1747)

 

[brother Paul]

In fact, from the start, scientists knew humans were apes.

Not! Only Darwinian oriented scientists and even then not all....but in recent times they are taught it to be true since grade school (imprinting and drill and repetition with reward/passing and punishment/failure go a long way)...anyway this is way off OP

 

[Barbarian]

Its like being an American, but also being called North American because the USA is part of the North American Continent.

No! Its like calling a whale a bear.

No. More like calling a gorilla an ape. Same as calling a man an ape. As you learned, biologist have always known this, although as Linnaeus admits, they tended to hide it because of people's feelings. It would be like calling a whale an ungulate, which they are.

But they are actually each a separate unrelated creatures, even though in recent times some "scientists" are "interpreting" some aspects to imply they are more one kind than two.

1747 doesn't strike me as "recent." Before that, as Linnaeus also wrote, people thought apes were a form of human. As his analysis shows, they had it backwards.

As a natural historian according to the principles of science, up to the present time I have been not been able to discover any character by which man can be distinguished from the ape; for there are somewhere apes which are less hairy than man, erect in position, going just like him on two feet, and recalling the human species by the use they make of their hands and feet, to such an extent, that the less educated travellers have given them out as a kind of man.
Carol Linnaeus Fauna Suecica (1746)

 

[brother Paul]

You may believe whatever you have been persuaded of. As I have said I have no problem with science.but with what some scientists say these things mean (not the same). One is data the other a way of interpreting that data. One is real the other imaginary....

 

[Barbarian]

You may believe whatever you have been persuaded of.

Comes down to evidence. And the evidence is unequivocal. Every biologist without a religious bias (and note that most biologists who are Christians accept the evidence without compromising Christian belief) accepts the fact of evolution.

As I have said I have no problem with science.but with what some scientists say these things mean (not the same).

I don't think that rationalization works very well.

 

[Milk-Drops]

No! Its like calling a whale a bear.

You mean Mammals. Paul you keep moving the goal posts. That or you don't understand Taxa.

But they are actually each a separate unrelated creatures, even though in recent times some "scientists" are "interpreting" some aspects to imply they are more one kind than two.

Paul there is no singular creature called an Ape. It's the name of a group of organisms. What separates humans from other apes that makes it deserve it's own catagory? Humans are already separated into the genus Homo while chimps are Pongo.

Many already accepting the hypothesis have jumped to accept this trash

It's easy to make claims when you just say they or some people. You still have yet to aknowledge you were wrong about several things so far. So who are these people you are talking about?

And I am not "anti-science", I am against believing one must interpret through the lens of the hypothesis (that goes for what Barbarian calls "creationists" as well even though he/she believes in creation)

Yet you never admit when you are mistaken and always fall back on the us vs them fallacy. I didn't call you anti science, but you are a pain to conversate with due to your topic jumping and ignoring any corrections to your wrong statements.

 

[turnorburn]

Why is it so embarrassing for you to imagine God becoming human? Would it be better for you if God became modified dirt?

Of course He took on all aspects of humanity, including our nature as animals. It was an amazing act of love for the Creator to have done so.

Remember, for anyone who thinks, "ape" isn't a disparaging term. It's just a word for the group of most intelligent and adaptable living things on this planet.

Why are you so anxious to bring Jesus down to the level of an ape?

 

[Barbarian]

Why are you so anxious to bring Jesus down to the level of an ape?

You should be very grateful to Him for becoming man. Your only chance at salvation exists because he became human. With all our physical imperfections, and biological characteristics. He set His power and majesty aside to become one of us.

Surely you can afford to set your pride aside and admit that humans evolved from other apes.

 

[brother Paul]

Humans evolved from which ape

 

[Milk-Drops]

Humans evolved from which ape

Modern Humans can be traced back to the Cromags.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Modern Humans can be traced back to the Cromags.

More Specificly it was most likely Homo Heidelbergensis, Then again no single ape evolved into Humans, it was a branch off of the parent group that would become genetically isolated.