Choice or Chance?

[Danus]

I thought I post this here.

An acquaintance of mine posted this quote on FB ‎"It's choice - not chance that determines your destiny." - Jean Nidetch. (Founder of weight watchers by the way)

This got me thinking. Do we really have a choice when it comes to our destiny? For example, if your walking along and you come to a fork in the road where you can go one way or the other, we could say that your choice of direction will determine your destination. However, since there is no alternative to reality, how can anyone say they have made a choice at all.

If you chose to take the east fork in the road, then you did not chose the west fork, so the west fork does not exist. The west fork will never be realized and never be a part of your reality, since you chose the east fork. You can't know what would have happened taking the west fork. You can't ever say "I should have taken the west fork", or, "I'm glad I too the east fork." Before you even "Made a choice" you had an idea of which way you would have taken and it can be said that your choice was in fact predetermined. WHY? because that's the "choice' you made, and the choice you made is the reality, and since there is NO alternative to reality it was in fact your destiny.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I thought I post this here.

An acquaintance of mine posted this quote on FB ‎"It's choice - not chance that determines your destiny." - Jean Nidetch. (Founder of weight watchers by the way)

This got me thinking. Do we really have a choice when it comes to our destiny? For example, if your walking along and you come to a fork in the road where you can go one way or the other, we could say that your choice of direction will determine your destination. However, since there is no alternative to reality, how can anyone say they have made a choice at all.

If you chose to take the east fork in the road, then you did not chose the west fork, so the west fork does not exist. The west fork will never be realized and never be a part of your reality, since you chose the east fork. You can't know what would have happened taking the west fork. You can't ever say "I should have taken the west fork", or, "I'm glad I too the east fork." Before you even "Made a choice" you had an idea of which way you would have taken and it can be said that your choice was in fact predetermined. WHY? because that's the "choice' you made, and the choice you made is the reality, and since there is NO alternative to reality it was in fact your destiny.

....

2.3: No foul language, pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or similarly related material or language including toilet humor. Including words purposely misspelled or alternate use of characters to indicate such statements.

The letters BS fit this TOS reba

 

[handy]

I think there are times when we do see what "would have been"...not often but...

There was the time we had all our friends praying for a job opportunity for Steve. It sounded wonderful, getting on with the school district and their good salaries and great benefits....it was down to either him or this woman he worked with and was friends with.

She got the job.

Steve was disappointed at the time. But we ran into her about a year later and found out that at the end of the school year, the school decided that they couldn't afford the position after all and let her go. She still hadn't found employment. If it had been Steve, it would have been the same story. We praised God that He closed the door to him...and prayed for his friend that she could find other employment. Fortunately for her, her income was a supplemental one to her husband's and their family was OK. We would have been devastated.

Just one example.

"Choose this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord..." Joshua's words rang true throughout Israel's history...when the Israelites chose to serve the Lord, they prospered and were blessed. When they went after other gods and failed to keep God's commandments, they were bad things happened. When they were headed in the wrong direction and a king would rise up who called the nation to repentance...imminent danger was averted...

I guess I'm not such a big one for destiny.

 

[childeye]

Love this thread. This is the reason why I see freewill as relative. Handy has done an excellent job of pointing out that God looks after His own and that He maintains barriers that cannot be breached. So High you can't go over it, so low you can't go under it, so wide you can't get around it, you must go in through the door. Those who deny this, saying we are free to deny it, are simply parroting the voice of sin.

Danus, you are really quite on the money abut your analysis in my view. While it may seem we can both obey and disobey God, in reality we can only do one or the other.
Even then the paths provided send men on courses meant for either humility or exhaultation according to the choice made. So automatically sown within each choice is also the appropriate course for the one who chooses so that they should be exhaulted or diminished revealed in their choice. In this way God's ways are perfect and we must go in through the door. That door becoming dead in Christ so that no pride exists that can be exhaulted or humiliated. That's my B.S. added to this thread.

P.S. If destiny is destined to be a good one I'm all for it. if it's a bad destiny I'm against it. So when we say we have faith in God what exactly are we saying?

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

Do you think that God is a Puppeteer? Does there need to be a God at all? The idea of destiny that never changes regardless of the seeming choices we make can be in a totally materialistic universe. Even the choices that a God might make is nothing more than destiny.

I remember being given a Science Fiction book when I was in college that was based on that premise. What will be, will be. Spoken by an ancient alien race at the end of the book to the protagonist. That no matter what choice we make, for good or bad, it's the right choice because it's the only choice we can make. And we live in an oscillating universe (popular idea at the time) and everything just repeats itself over and over and over. The last words of the book was the words of the alien, "We'll meet again".

FC

 

[jasoncran]

lovely another thread on limited free will. i am arminist in nature. do i believe God does control my decisions at times.

"he directs the path of the righteous" hmm what would that mean if there no truth to that?there are times where i have gone of the beaten path and God pursued me and when we sin we are miserable so we repent. is that not directing? yes i do believe we can choose sin over god as i state i am arminist but really at times most often we do repent when the heart is softened enough.

why just ask ..JONAH.

 

[Danus]

I think there are times when we do see what "would have been"...not often but...

There was the time we had all our friends praying for a job opportunity for Steve. It sounded wonderful, getting on with the school district and their good salaries and great benefits....it was down to either him or this woman he worked with and was friends with.

She got the job.

Steve was disappointed at the time. But we ran into her about a year later and found out that at the end of the school year, the school decided that they couldn't afford the position after all and let her go. She still hadn't found employment. If it had been Steve, it would have been the same story. We praised God that He closed the door to him...and prayed for his friend that she could find other employment. Fortunately for her, her income was a supplemental one to her husband's and their family was OK. We would have been devastated.

Just one example.

"Choose this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord..." Joshua's words rang true throughout Israel's history...when the Israelites chose to serve the Lord, they prospered and were blessed. When they went after other gods and failed to keep God's commandments, they were bad things happened. When they were headed in the wrong direction and a king would rise up who called the nation to repentance...imminent danger was averted...

I guess I'm not such a big one for destiny.

Interesting.

But, it could be said that Steve's destiny was to not get the job in the first place since he did not get it. His choice was the job, but the reality was no. So, we can't say he would have lost a job he did not get because it's not his reality, but someone else's reality. We could make a reasonable assumption I suppose, but of what value is it since he had no foreknowledge of getting a job that would be lost.

I guess what I'm trying to point out, or question, is that no matter how we see the alternative to what is, we can't say those visions exist. We can't draw a conclusion to what does not happen, only to what does happen.

But more than that....do we shape our destiny, and if so, how do we have any real control of that if we are to shape our destiny by making certain choices?

In Steve's case his destiny was shaped not by his choice. In the case of the job, it was what it was, not what Steve would have initially wanted it to be. You mentioned he was disappointed, but did that change when he found out the other person lost the job? "whew glade I did not get that job" ?? Why then and not after learning right off that he did not get that job?

Here is another way to look at this. Only God knows the future. I think we can agree on that. The future may have certain outcomes, but that's pointless to us since we do not know what those are. We can only assume.

If what we do shapes the future, for good or bad, but we can't change that in the past to alter the current, then all we can do is assume based on the past. From there, are we choosing anything in what we do, or aren't we simply stepping into our own destiny and fulfilling it?

 

[Eventide]

lovely another thread on limited free will..

Yup... this is what people want to talk about today.. how that God chose them and that they're the elect yada yada yada.. that's the bottom line in all these threads.

 

[Danus]

"he directs the path of the righteous"

Exactly. Or do the righteous direct their own path? I'm going with you on this, He does.

 

[Former Christian]

Jasoncran

"lovely another thread on limited free will."

I wanted to say something like this. But I felt it would sound better coming from you as a moderator.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

Since you presume that God is in the picture, let's look at it a little differently. Why is the Bible full of choices we're asked to make if whatever we choose is only our destiny? Why would God complicate the issue? Why doesn't he just let us go about our business that would have been our destiny anyway?

FC

 

[childeye]

Yeah I can't stand these freewill threads. I am not a Robot!!! I'm a human being!!!Prick me do I not bleed? Hurt me will I not cry??? WAH, WAH, WAH... see? I am not going to hope I am a chosen one. I'm going to choose myself and no one can stop me. For I am the master of destiny!!!

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

LOL

That's one way to say you're not a robot.

Choosing to be in Christ is left to us. And our hope is in the promises of God. The promises that say that if we choose to be in Christ, so shall it be.

FC

 

[childeye]

Childeye

LOL

That's one way to say you're not a robot.

Choosing to be in Christ is left to us. And our hope is in the promises of God. The promises that say that if we choose to be in Christ, so shall it be.

FC

Actually FC, the promise is to Abraham and as we have all been declared worthy of death according to the law, the only hope is in His mercy and He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. I maintain that this knowledge of God if believed gives a man hope in mercy. Therewith we must have faith that God is faithful according to His forbearance and able to heal us of our blindness.

 

[Danus]

Danus

Since you presume that God is in the picture, let's look at it a little differently. Why is the Bible full of choices we're asked to make if whatever we choose is only our destiny? Why would God complicate the issue? Why doesn't he just let us go about our business that would have been our destiny anyway?

FC

I guess you'll have to be more specific. However, all God has to do to harden anyone’s heart is to withhold His own grace; that is to say, He gives a person over to himself, his own nature. We have choices even within this, but if we are to think we can over come our own nature then we are to say that Christ sacrifice is less than our ability to decide for ourselves.

If we are making choices in life, and we are clearly doing that, then we are so by the influence of God or ourselves. Either way, that is our destiny.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

I see the promise starting way back with Adam. And if we're blind, how are going to believe? That would lead you the position that says we're saved before anything else can occur. Including our own belief in God.

FC

 

[jasoncran]

Exactly. Or do the righteous direct their own path? I'm going with you on this, He does.

of course he does that but imho doesnt negate our choice to listen. even jonah never changed in that which was written on him about his attitude about the nivehenites. that was brought to my attention by a calvinist. God may direct our paths but he doesnt manipulate us to follow them. we are still allowed to be as stubborn as a mule.

stiffneckness runs in my family, i wonder why? would be of the physical seed of abraham have anything to do with this? nah. never.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

I see the promise starting way back with Adam. And if we're blind, how are going to believe? That would lead you the position that says we're saved before anything else can occur. Including our own belief in God.

FC

Yes, my ever clever FC. Many here would say the same thing. Please note that the Gospel makes the blind seeing and the seeing blind. Like a perfect sword it does not banty around splitting hairs anywhere but right down the middle. There is no "if" about being blind, only the semantics of what that blindness pertains to. I will concede that somebody is already saved before anything ever happened according to God's foreknowledge. But there is a reason we are here and some vanity that must be removed by the means of flesh.

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

God never hardens a heart that hasn't already hardened itself. God never lets anyone go of anyone that hasn't already decided to be let go.

I get the impression that your definition of destiny is just whatever happens. But the definition of the dictionary I have is a little different,

" the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future... the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate" (Oxford Dictionary)

And fate means,

“the development of events outside a person's control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power... the course of someone's life, or the outcome of a particular situation for someone or something, seen as outside their control... be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way†(Oxford Dictionary)

It was according to those definitions that you must understand what I said.

FC

 

[childeye]

AHHHH, Freewill..... The theology that the dung excretes the body.