Choice or Chance?

[jasoncran]

for the record what God does and how does isnt the issue. we know not all men will repent. just they way calvinims words it.

some he MADE TO GO TO HELL. others he will saved. no choice in the matter for the man.being born a human has no choice if he is to be saved or not. God choose whom he will save. that is the doctrine i dont like.

do we know if esau repented? we dont. do we know that pharoah didnt choose to harden his heart? yes we do.

Exodus 7



1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
2Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
3And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
4But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
5And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
6And Moses and Aaron did as the LORD commanded them, so did they.
7And Moses was fourscore years old, and Aaron fourscore and three years old, when they spake unto Pharaoh.
8And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
9When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
10And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
14And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.
15Get thee unto Pharaoh in the morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou shalt stand by the river's brink against he come; and the rod which was turned to a serpent shalt thou take in thine hand.
16And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.
17Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
18And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.
19And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
20And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
21And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.
23And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also.
24And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river. 25And seven days were fulfilled, after that the LORD had smitten the river

and

Exodus 8



1And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
2And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
3And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs:
4And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.
5And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.
6And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.
7And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
8Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, Intreat the LORD, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the LORD.
9And Moses said unto Pharaoh, Glory over me: when shall I intreat for thee, and for thy servants, and for thy people, to destroy the frogs from thee and thy houses, that they may remain in the river only?
10And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.
11And the frogs shall depart from thee, and from thy houses, and from thy servants, and from thy people; they shall remain in the river only.
12And Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh: and Moses cried unto the LORD because of the frogs which he had brought against Pharaoh.
13And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and the frogs died out of the houses, out of the villages, and out of the fields.
14And they gathered them together upon heaps: and the land stank.
15But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
16And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
17And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
18And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.
19Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
20And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
21Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.
22And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.
23And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.
24And the LORD did so; and there came a grievous swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh, and into his servants' houses, and into all the land of Egypt: the land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies.
25And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye, sacrifice to your God in the land.
26And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?
27We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice to the LORD our God, as he shall command us.
28And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far away: intreat for me.
29And Moses said, Behold, I go out from thee, and I will intreat the LORD that the swarms of flies may depart from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people, to morrow: but let not Pharaoh deal deceitfully any more in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD.
30And Moses went out from Pharaoh, and intreated the LORD.
31And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and he removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; there remained not one. 32And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

seems to me that pharoah choose not to listen and God foreknew that.

and of course the contrargument as i stated.

exodus 10:1

1And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him

if you take note that pharoah was harden already. we dont know if God was calling him to let them go before moses as that is speculative as he had to know what and whom God was.

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

"Take a hard look at what you have here: "we hope to change some of what was and what is by what will be."
You talking about changing the past . And using the future to change the past. .......where have I heard this from? Do you own a flux-capacitor and a Delorean?"

LOL I wish.

No, I was referring to changing the results of choices made in the past that we have to live with in the present.

FC

 

[jasoncran]

i may take the the role of antagonist here but why would i listen any calvinist preacher such as

http://tunein.com/radio/Godward-Living-p103995/

i listen to him daily. i suggest that statement of me hating calvinists be retracted. i dont hate them,i see that in err. i know of that doctrine and i dont see them teach hyper calvinism as svbg57 does.

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

"Who are the ones who are better at it? If we can only guess at the future then what of our choices can influence it, since it's going to be what ever it is, at which time it becomes the past.
Your suggesting that I should be a predictor of the future, or that I should be better at it because I'm Christian? Don't follow you on that one. Can you explain?"

Well, don't you think you have an inside scoop on how best to make choices because you have a Bible?

FC

 

[childeye]

sigh, draw men. i never said that our choices dont have consequences only that we are allowed to face them." choose god and live, or satan and die"

just because the laws says i cant murder doesnt by force stop jason from going out and killing. it merely says that is wrong and we will punish you. the act isnt stopped.(unless a cop is near)

please that isnt the argument i'm using God created consequences for the decision we make that isnt denied at all by me. just that God wont save men is what calvin preaches and those saved were ordained to be saved(thus their decisions are already predetermined)

so if you want to say that you arent a calvinist then i suggest rewording that better and you might get an amen if you said WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE LIFE OR DEATH. EITHER WAY the choices are only those.

But I don't think we are free to choose life or death lest I deny the proof of the law that condemns all men as sinners. For these are the words of the Old Testament to choose life or death. So it is I would not choose death but death reins through sin regardless of my choice. Also therefore I must admit I need a saviour according to such illumination brought forth through the Old Testament that has proven me only worthy of death. Now how in all honesty before God do you dare me to say I have chosen life through believing in Christ when all I have done is admit to what God has shown me to be true through the Old Testament?

 

[Danus]

for the record what God does and how does isnt the issue. we know not all men will repent. just they way calvinims words it.

some he MADE TO GO TO HELL. others he will saved. no choice in the matter for the man.being born a human has no choice if he is to be saved or not. God choose whom he will save. that is the doctrine i dont like.

NOW JASON...you know I did not create this topic to discuss Calvinism. :p

However, in defense of "predestination" I'm going to suggest you have a slightly slanted view of the doctrine.

 

[Former Christian]

Jasoncran

"i listen to him daily. i suggest that statement of me hating calvinists be retracted. i dont hate them,i see that in err. i know of that doctrine and i dont see them teach hyper calvinism as svbg57 does."

Having come out of a Church that believed just like Svbg57, I didn't know there was a difference. Thanks for mentioning that. I'll have to check into it.

FC

 

[jasoncran]

again to chideye, the lord must reveal himself first to the sinner, they must then choose to deny the lord.

ok take you arguments with deavonrye, if sadly he dies this day those words shall condemn him to hell if he doesnt repent. dont think you(ivdavid,levy, and yourself) speak the word to him. he now has no exuse for he has heard the gospel here. he has to choose now to reject it or repent. his choice. God doesnt hypnotise us to follow him. he works in ways to draw us but still we must listen.

we can be sure (d wont admit) that he is being dealt with over those words to repent.so when he does come, he will say man this voice i know( i did when i came to christ and even said for years this voice called me)

@ danus

"for whom he foreknow he predestined.." and he ordained them to goodworks.

that doesnt negate our choice. lets take that to the extreme. the very prayers you and i say are those happenstance or orchestrated?

it can be both.

 

[Danus]

Danus

Well, don't you think you have an inside scoop on how best to make choices because you have a Bible?

FC

Well, That's true. However, those choices don't tell me the future. I have faith in God and I follow God, in so much as I have a relationship with Christ.

Often I use the bible to confirm the choices I once made, as well as learning ways to live better in the presence of God. IN that relationship I still have choices, but the choices i make are often a direct influence that God has on my life based on the relationship I have with him.

There are times when I feel I am left to make my own choice. Will I choose on my own understanding and desire or will I tap into God for the choice?

In any case I am not shaping the future so much as I am shaping my relationship with God, but it's not just my own doing. I have to understand that God has a hand in this as well. God shapes the relationship as well, and perhaps completely. In fact I'd go as far as to say that he does since only he knows what choices I will make.

incidentally let's look at some "choices" you and I may have made up to this point in our lives.

You call yourself "Former Christian". I understand that to imply that you where once Christian and now you are not. Can you tell me about that?

 

[Saltwater]

Hello Danus, Childeye, Jasoncran, Formerchristian,

I'm finding things pretty interesting reading your debate re choice/destiny/freewill.

Here's a few things I have noticed in these free will debates which appear to be constantly going on:

1. I get the impression these debates are always be posted by those of the Reformed/Calvinist persuasion
2. the freewill issue seems to be a problem/bug bear for them
3. could it be the obvious flaw within their theology that they struggle with the most when reading their Bible & seeing the nature of God revealed fully in the Lord Jesus Christ? God is love - He is not the source/cause of evil.
4. The struggle seems to go along these lines - if there is no freewill for us & God is the director of our thoughts and/or behaviour then this makes God the author of sin/evil
5. many a philospophical premise is then presented to convince themselves otherwise or the ultimate cop out is presented - tis a mystery to us.
6. For those of us of an Arminian/Wesleyan persuasion free will fits perfectly into our theology without having to delve into the flowing streams of these never ending discussions about free will.

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

"You call yourself "Former Christian". I understand that to imply that you where once Christian and now you are not. Can you tell me about that?"

Well, I can't think of a thing I disagree with in that post. And this question would take us too far afield. In this case, I don't know how to relate it to the topic of this thread. Since you started this thread, maybe you can think of a way.

Suffice it to say, you probably wouldn't agree with my reasons. Very few understand my reasons, let alone agree with them.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Saltwater

You like to hit nails on the head, don't you?

FC

 

[Danus]

"for whom he foreknow he predestined.." and he ordained them to goodworks.

that doesnt negate our choice. lets take that to the extreme. the very prayers you and i say are those happenstance or orchestrated?

it can be both.

Calvin would agree.

 

[Danus]

Well, I can't think of a thing I disagree with in that post. And this question would take us too far afield. In this case, I don't know how to relate it to the topic of this thread. Since you started this thread, maybe you can think of a way.

Suffice it to say, you probably wouldn't agree with my reasons. Very few understand my reasons, let alone agree with them.

FC

Understand, but I will try to relate it.

Assuming you where once Christian and now your not, tells me that you freely chose the christian life at one point. For whatever reason you are no longer a Christian, but a former such.

I one the other hand never chose the Christian life in so much as saying; "Why Christianity sounds pretty good to me and I am going to be a Christian. " I spent most of my life trying to get as far away from Christianity as I could. I did everything I could to be my own man. I wanted nothing more than to be left alone by God and Christians alike.

And here I am now a Christian. So at some point I had to make a decision to follow Christ. However for me it was not really a decision as much as it was the only alternative to my life. I was cornered, trapped and defeated by God himself.

Does that mean that God dragged me kicking and screaming into the fold? No. The kicking and screaming I did well before to stay away. I did not shape my future because my future is not what I intended. However, in hindsight it is my destiny whether I wanted it or not, because it is my reality.

I'm I more worthy of salvation than you or any other? No, but for me to be saved regardless, I had to accept it. That seems my choice and to me it is, but getting me to that choice was God's doing and not mine.

My destiny from here on, is not in my hands. My will in this has changed. It has been handed over to the point where even if I could take it back, not only would I have no desire I'd just be captured again, mostly because I am willing to be.

 

[Danus]

Hello Danus, Childeye, Jasoncran, Formerchristian,

I'm finding things pretty interesting reading your debate re choice/destiny/freewill.

Here's a few things I have noticed in these free will debates which appear to be constantly going on:

1. I get the impression these debates are always be posted by those of the Reformed/Calvinist persuasion
2. the freewill issue seems to be a problem/bug bear for them
3. could it be the obvious flaw within their theology that they struggle with the most when reading their Bible & seeing the nature of God revealed fully in the Lord Jesus Christ? God is love - He is not the source/cause of evil.
4. The struggle seems to go along these lines - if there is no freewill for us & God is the director of our thoughts and/or behaviour then this makes God the author of sin/evil
5. many a philospophical premise is then presented to convince themselves otherwise or the ultimate cop out is presented - tis a mystery to us.
6. For those of us of an Arminian/Wesleyan persuasion free will fits perfectly into our theology without having to delve into the flowing streams of these never ending discussions about free will.

Who is saying there is no freewill? Not me? I have no problem with free will. All these things you've listed are not struggles I have at all as a reformist. Just to be clear. Nor I'm I involved in a debate about it. I have not brought theology up in my original post. Just posed a few questions is all.

 

[jasoncran]

Calvin would agree.

i add one more caveat.

God knows our prayers(needs) correct? yes

but sometimes in our needs when we either sin or are in trial. did God orchestrate say 9-11?

i can add much on that. perhaps i should say what i felt on that days afterword.while all things are under his control. its still our choice to pray or not to. to listen or reject. he knows the outcome but that again doesnt remove our actions at all. we still free as far mortals can be. he doesnt make us pray.

i once said this a while ago. does God zombie the calvinists to their churches or do good works?

 

[Danus]

i add one more caveat.

God knows our prayers(needs) correct? yes

but sometimes in our needs when we either sin or are in trial. did God orchestrate say 9-11?

i can add much on that. perhaps i should say what i felt on that days afterword.while all things are under his control. its still our choice to pray or not to. to listen or reject. he knows the outcome but that again doesnt remove our actions at all. we still free as far mortals can be. he doesnt make us pray.

i once said this a while ago. does God zombie the calvinists to their churches or do good works?

Since the reformist views are being brought up here I have to again say that no one is disagreeing. Reformist do not hold to the understandings of God forcing anyone to be a Christian or pray or turned into zombies for Christ. I've yet to get to the heart of the argument if in fact there is one here.

Just because I posted this in A&T does not mean I am bringing up this whole predestination / free will debate. That's all you Armenian's and possibly an atheist / agnostic doing that. I sewer you guys will :fullauto a Calvinist at the drop of a hat.

In the words of Rodney King..."Cain't we all get along?"

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;571306]again to chideye, the lord must reveal himself first to the sinner, they must then choose to deny the lord.

ok take you arguments with deavonrye, if sadly he dies this day those words shall condemn him to hell if he doesnt repent. dont think you(ivdavid,levy, and yourself) speak the word to him. he now has no exuse for he has heard the gospel here. he has to choose now to reject it or repent. his choice. God doesnt hypnotise us to follow him. he works in ways to draw us but still we must listen.

Yes all directions we must choose from as it so happens we are alive and God has not left us without instruction. But I do not argue that I could not listen or in pride not hear His voice. I am simply saying to not follow His voice or hear it is the carnal mind subject to the carnal nature, sin, and death. This is not freedom lest I count God's voice treacherous. You are always pointing to choice existing for the sake of responsibility. Yet God is the Love that makes a man care about others. You talk of Him as an option of man's.

Deavonreye may misunderstand now, but it is my prayer that devonreye does see even because I believe Devonreye has an issue with religion. Look at Saul who became Paul, certainly he had heard the Gospel and misunderstood. But yet God turned him even though he was at one time an enemy to the Gospel. I do not ignore this. Do you honestly think Paul would say he chose, or rather he gained sight by God's grace for God's purpose?

 

[reba]

Salvation is not by chance.

 

[childeye]

=Saltwater;571308]Hello Danus, Childeye, Jasoncran, Formerchristian,

I'm finding things pretty interesting reading your debate re choice/destiny/freewill.

Here's a few things I have noticed in these free will debates which appear to be constantly going on:

1. I get the impression these debates are always be posted by those of the Reformed/Calvinist persuasion

I've never studied Calvinism and I don't like carnal labels.

2. the freewill issue seems to be a problem/bug bear for them

It is a problem even as it's premise ends in hypocrisy.

3. could it be the obvious flaw within their theology that they struggle with the most when reading their Bible & seeing the nature of God revealed fully in the Lord Jesus Christ? God is love - He is not the source/cause of evil. I believe evil is a product of vanity, a freewill in the corrupt mind of the ignorant through a false image of god.

On the contrary, I can't speak for others I personally base all my reasoning on the premise God is Love and He is not the source or purpose of evil.

4. The struggle seems to go along these lines - if there is no freewill for us & God is the director of our thoughts and/or behaviour then this makes God the author of sin/evil

No, it goes like this - a freewill must for all intensive purposes be able to accomplish what it decides to do. So it is that men have been unable to not sin despite their choice making our so called freewill limited in some capacity. To understand why, we must either assume we actually want to be sinners or there is corruption of the mind and heart and indeed even if we want to be sinners there is corruption of the mind and heart. The scripture testifies that this is the case. For we must have our minds renewed so as to be free in our wills. Hence the Truth sets you free. So rather your belief that the will is free always and at all times is an amoral view of choice. God is not to blame nor is man. It is the devil playing both sides against the middle hence he is both temptor and accuser.

5. many a philospophical premise is then presented to convince themselves otherwise or the ultimate cop out is presented - tis a mystery to us.


6. For those of us of an Arminian/Wesleyan persuasion free will fits perfectly into our theology without having to delve into the flowing streams of these never ending discussions about free will.

Yes, but you avoid the implications of your thought process based on that premise by avoiding discussion of whether the premise is intact. The carnal comparing and judging of one another according to a freewill sees justice differently than the spiritual concept of an enslaved will becoming free. The spiritual says forgive them they know not what they do, the sick need a doctor, return good for evil and love your enemies.