Choice or Chance?

[Danus]

of course he does that but imho doesnt negate our choice to listen. even jonah never changed in that which was written on him about his attitude about the nivehenites. that was brought to my attention by a calvinist. God may direct our paths but he doesnt manipulate us to follow them. we are still allowed to be as stubborn as a mule.

stiffneckness runs in my family, i wonder why? would be of the physical seed of abraham have anything to do with this? nah. never.

Basically we are agreeing. I am not suggesting we don't have the ability to choose. I'm questioning if our choices change reality since there is only one reality. "Could have, and "should have", have never done anything.

 

[jasoncran]

AHHHH, Freewill..... The theology that the dung excretes the body.

ah yes the limited freewill doctrine that tries to deny that God wont save all men as he lets them go to hell with no offer to repent.

and with the same breath says God isnt evil.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

"Yes, my ever clever FC...Freewill..... The theology that the dung excretes the body."

Don't be insulting. That you agree that salvation comes before faith is no excuse.

FC

 

[jasoncran]

Basically we are agreeing. I am not suggesting we don't have the ability to choose. I'm questioning if our choices change reality since there is only one reality. "Could have, and "should have", have never done anything.

a mystery indeed, thus the never ending debate.

 

[childeye]

ah yes the limited freewill doctrine that tries to deny that God wont save all men as he lets them go to hell with no offer to repent.

and with the same breath says God isnt evil.

But I would be a hypocrit if I were talk like that. Surely you are not refering to me?

 

[childeye]

Childeye

"Yes, my ever clever FC...Freewill..... The theology that the dung excretes the body."

Don't be insulting. That you agree that salvation comes before faith is no excuse.

FC

First you thought I was funny and now you find me insulting. I am both exhaulted and humbled and yet remain the same.

 

[jasoncran]

But I would be a hypocrit if I were talk like that. Surely you are not refering to me?

you do understand that is what you say. when say limited freewill to these here its what it taken from

romans 9

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

note vs 22. read it and weep lol. this is why eventide doesnt like calvinism.i am not saying that all say it that way but i have seen them dance around that God is evil thing. all mean all

for whomesever will let him come. mean any that choose to come will. not only that God calls.

 

[Danus]

Danus

God never hardens a heart that hasn't already hardened itself. God never lets anyone go of anyone that hasn't already decided to be let go.

I never said he did. All I said was, "all he has to do to harden someones heart is withhold his grace, given them over to themselves.

I get the impression that your definition of destiny is just whatever happens. But the definition of the dictionary I have is a little different,

" the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future... the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate" (Oxford Dictionary)

How is the Oxford Dictionary definition of destiny different from what you think my definition of destiny is? I'm trying to square your point and I'm lost.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

"First you thought I was funny and now you find me insulting. I am both exhaulted and humbled and yet remain the same."

That you do.

FC

 

[Danus]

for whomesever will let him come. mean any that choose to come will. not only that God calls.

Is the choice not the call of God? and is the call of God not the choice of God?

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

"Basically we are agreeing. I am not suggesting we don't have the ability to choose. I'm questioning if our choices change reality since there is only one reality. "Could have, and "should have", have never done anything."

As far as the past, it is done. As far as the future, it is our choice. As far as now, we're stuck in the middle of what was and what will be. And we hope to change some of what was and what is by what will be.

FC

 

[childeye]

=jasoncran;571273]you do understand that is what you say. when say limited freewill to these here its what it taken from

Actually no. It is not taken from any of these scriptures although they are relevant. A freewill that is limited means there are boundaries. A freewill that is relative is pertaining to the knowledge of God and the ignorance of God. For there exists the will of the flesh and the false imagery of god. You seem to find fault with God if He does what you perceive as evil, is this not patronizing to God when He does what you perceive as good? He knows better than we. We do not love greater than He. This is where my faith is pointed. This is where my thoughts go and my words try to follow. I am not fit to judge God.

 

[Danus]

As far as the future, it is our choice.

FC

To qualify this you'd have to know the future. Do you?

 

[jasoncran]

Is the choice not the call of God? and is the call of God not the choice of God?

for many are called few are chosen. heres the problem for you that think that way.

was pharoah doomed to hell before birth? what of esau?

i think calvin got it wrong with the hardening of hearts. i takes a while for me to decide that some people wont listen. in the science forum theres those that wont walk away from(or even consider) the toe. therefore i dont bother with them. calvin presumes that God wont leave us(correct) but in err he states that we cant leave God.

surely we can on this earth stop loving our spouses or gf or bf. why not so with God? the great falling away means that some KNOW god and choose the opposite. hard to fathom but clearly stated.

romans 1 indicates that the reprobate had a meeting with God and decided to serve something else and God said hey have at it. you want it i wont stop you at all.

2 Peter 2



1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

that kinda contradicts what you say danus. these false ones know what they do.

 

[Former Christian]

Danus

We don't know the future. Not perfectly. We can extrapolate the future from what we know of the past and the present. And make choices accordingly. Some people are better at it than others. Those who are in Christ should be better at it than most, since they have the written word of God and a living being to tell them how to understand it. Doesn't always seem to make a lot of difference as far as daily life is concerned. Since most know only enough that they think will get them saved. Is that their destiny or their choice?

FC

 

[jasoncran]

Actually no. It is not taken from any of these scriptures although they are relevant. A freewill that is limited means there are boundaries. A freewill that is relative is pertaining to the knowledge of God and the ignorance of God. For there exists the will of the flesh and the false imagery of god. You seem to find fault with God if He does what you perceive as evil, is this not patronizing to God when He does what you perceive as good? He knows better than we. We do not love greater than He. This is where my faith is pointed. This is where my thoughts go and my words try to follow. I am not fit to judge God.

sigh, draw men. i never said that our choices dont have consequences only that we are allowed to face them." choose god and live, or satan and die"

just because the laws says i cant murder doesnt by force stop jason from going out and killing. it merely says that is wrong and we will punish you. the act isnt stopped.(unless a cop is near)

please that isnt the argument i'm using God created consequences for the decision we make that isnt denied at all by me. just that God wont save men is what calvin preaches and those saved were ordained to be saved(thus their decisions are already predetermined)

so if you want to say that you arent a calvinist then i suggest rewording that better and you might get an amen if you said WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE LIFE OR DEATH. EITHER WAY the choices are only those.

 

[Danus]

As far as the past, it is done. As far as the future, it is our choice. As far as now, we're stuck in the middle of what was and what will be. And we hope to change some of what was and what is by what will be.

FC

Sorry I meant to add this to my last reply what we'll make it another one.

Take a hard look at what you have here: "we hope to change some of what was and what is by what will be."

You talking about changing the past . And using the future to change the past. .......where have I heard this from? Do you own a flux-capacitor and a Delorean?

 

[childeye]

Why does everyone who hates Calvin quote Calvin to me? I witness only that which I can witness to and so it is not my job to defend Calvin.

 

[childeye]

Sorry I meant to add this to my last reply what we'll make it another one.

Take a hard look at what you have here: "we hope to change some of what was and what is by what will be."

You talking about changing the past . And using the future to change the past. .......where have I heard this from? Do you own a flux-capacitor and a Delorean?

A wise statement seeing that you have left room for knowledge and ignorance to make a difference in mens choices.

 

[Danus]

Danus

We don't know the future. Not perfectly. We can extrapolate the future from what we know of the past and the present. And make choices accordingly. Some people are better at it than others. Those who are in Christ should be better at it than most, since they have the written word of God and a living being to tell them how to understand it. Doesn't always seem to make a lot of difference as far as daily life is concerned. Since most know only enough that they think will get them saved. Is that their destiny or their choice?

FC

Who are the ones who are better at it? If we can only guess at the future then what of our choices can influence it, since it's going to be what ever it is, at which time it becomes the past.

Your suggesting that I should be a predictor of the future, or that I should be better at it because I'm Christian? Don't follow you on that one. Can you explain?