Choosing a Church

[elijah23]

And this is entirely correct. We should not do that. But the 'rhabbi' and 'kathēgētēs' Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 23 are not the 'didaskalos' that God has appointed in the church to teach his people.

It's okay to have teachers (didaskalos) in the church. That is not what Jesus was talking about. If we take what Jesus said in Matthew 23 the way you are then we should not even address our grade school teachers by that title.

We have one teacher.

That doesn’t mean we don’t learn from each other—I think the Lord wants us to learn from each other.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Unless the preacher is also an elder (elder and pastor being the same) he cannot be termed "pastor". Qualifications for such men are found in I Tim. 3 and Titus 1. This goes back to what I said in my 1st. post that in choosing a church, if you want Christ's church and not a man-made church study it's identity in the NT. There are many counterfeits.

My understanding is the pastor is basically the head elder. And like all elders, he should have a true spiritual gift of teaching. But the church is good at accepting pastors who's gifts are evangelism, and helps, and other things, but not teaching.

IMO, the pastor's primary gift and burden should be to teach the body of Christ the truths of God from the Word. All of them, not just the truths connected with a particular gifting and calling. But that is what we commonly see--a pastor who steers the body according to his own personal (non teaching) gifting.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We have one teacher.

That doesn’t mean we don’t learn from each other—I think the Lord wants us to learn from each other.

But just not in official offices of teaching?

 

[elijah23]

But just not in official offices of teaching?

Yes, that is correct.

I once served as a “teacher†in adult Sunday school classes, but it wasn’t my job to teach. It was my job to call the classes’ attention to the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Elijah674]

When one looks for a church, does one want a church that believes exactly as he, or she, does, or does one want a church that will provide a group of loyal friends?

OK: Elijah to Elijah!
I find James 4..
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

That is telling me that it is what I know to be truth is what I am accountable for, and to be 'yoked in membership with' any church or them to me is serious business! And I find that to be the Josh. 7 ones being the one to accept me as well. (that sin was one of the ten)

If I do not believe in the church teachings (doctrines?) we would find verse 12 applying to sin! According to Jame 2:10, right?

But here is the Josh. 12 verse...
[12] Therefore the children of Israel (all were held accountable! See verse 1)could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: [[ neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.]]

That is documented again in Rev. 18:4!
Rev. 18
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
[5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
[6] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

So yes, it works both ways as 'i' see it in Matt. 28:19

 

[Webb]

Its news to me that the Bible has any teaching at all about a "head elder" other than our Lord Jesus Christ who is the chief Sheppherd.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, that is correct.

I once served as a “teacher” in adult Sunday school classes, but it wasn’t my job to teach. It was my job to call the classes’ attention to the teachings of Jesus.

So you don't believe that God has called and anointed certain individuals to do this as a special and particular calling, and that we are all teachers equally the same?

Simple observation shows this to be hardly true at all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Its news to me that the Bible has any teaching at all about a "head elder" other than our Lord Jesus Christ who is the chief Sheppherd.

The burden on you, then, is to distinguish between a pastor and an elder.

 

[Classik]

When one looks for a church, does one want a church that believes exactly as he, or she, does, or does one want a church that will provide a group of loyal friends?

the church must have good doctrine! I won't be comfortable in a church that has 90 percent elderly people - so, there should be about 70 percent youth. (It should be technologically sound - not unnecessarily expensive)

Finally, wow! A lovely choir and a good band:sing:guitar

 

[Webb]

Jethro you wrote on post 22: "--the pastor is basically the head elder." The burden is on you to show where this is taught in the scripture. Where is such a thing as "the head elder" taught? Its just not there.

Acts 20 clearly shows the elders, overseers the ones doing the pastoral work. Note the plural.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro you wrote on post 22: "--the pastor is basically the head elder." The burden is on you to show where this is taught in the scripture. Where is such a thing as "the head elder" taught? Its just not there.

Acts 20 clearly shows the elders, overseers the ones doing the pastoral work. Note the plural.

You're unfairly misrepresenting what I'm asking.

I said a pastor is basically the head elder (among several elders). You say a pastor IS an elder. But, since the Bible plainly distinguishes between an elder and a pastor how is it that you can say they are one and the same thing?

I contend that the pastor is the lead, or head elder of all the elders in a congregation. And for purposes of the topic of this thread, the head elder, the pastor, MUST have the gift of teaching the Word of God and MUST have that as the foundation for the church he leads...everything else springing out of that education in the Word.

And I mean teaching everything, not just narrowly confining all discussion and purpose for meeting to a single gift or subject of discussion, insisting it is what God wants emphasized to the neglect of other necessary gifts and subjects of discussion. For that is precisely the error that divides the church and which is so prevalent in our churches today.

 

[Webb]

Jethro, I must continue to ask you: where does the Bible come any where near teaching that there is a "head" elder?

I gave you Acts 20 as scriptural example that elders are pastors of the flock in which they reside.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, I must continue to ask you: where does the Bible come any where near teaching that there is a "head" elder?

I gave you Acts 20 as scriptural example that elders are pastors of the flock in which they reside.

I told you already.

The Bible makes a distinction between a pastor and an elder. If all the church had was elders, why does the Bible also speak of the office of pastor? But you claim there is no difference (though I know that a pastor is also an elder). So the burden is on you to explain why the Bible speaks of two different titles, pastor and elder, while you claim they are one and the same with no distinction. Understand now?

I don't have to defend that the Bible speaks of both pastors and an elders. The Bible already makes that distinction. I do, however, have an opinion about what makes the two different. You don't because you think they are one and the same, even though the Bible refers to them as being distinct.

 

[Webb]

Jethro, before I make reply to your last post, you have said there is such thing as a "lead" elder or a "head" elder. I deny the Bible teaches that and continue to insist that show where it does. I have given you (3rd time now) Paul's meeting with the Ephesian elders (plural) in Acts 20 where their work is pictured as that of pastors, shepherds. You continue to ignore these matters.

In your post #33 you wrote: ''THE BIBLE MAKES A DISTINCTION BETWEEN PASTOR AND AN ELDER." I ask you to show us in the Bible where such distinction is made. You cannot do it.

You also wrote: "( --- I ALSO KNOW THAT A PASTOR IS ALSO AN ELDER). Although you have not said so, I assume you understand the pastor to be the preacher. If so, if as you say "a pastor is also an elder", ( and I also believe an elder is a pastor, vice versa) then the pastor (preacher) must meet the qualifications for an elder. Both Timothy and Titus say he is to be a man, be married and have children and the children must be faithful. Some preachers are not married and do not have children and in todays world some preachers are not even men.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, before I make reply to your last post, you have said there is such thing as a "lead" elder or a "head" elder. I deny the Bible teaches that and continue to insist that show where it does. I have given you (3rd time now) Paul's meeting with the Ephesian elders (plural) in Acts 20 where their work is pictured as that of pastors, shepherds. You continue to ignore these matters.

I'm not ignoring Acts 20. Elders are the ones who perform the shepherding duties in the church, I know this. I'm suggesting to you that 'pastor' (as opposed to 'elder') is the role of the head, or lead elder (notice I said lead 'elder', not lead 'pastor'). All pastors are elders, but not all elders are pastors. Though it's not spelled out in scripture (thus the nature of my 'opinion' of what a pastor is compared to just an elder) we know 1) an elder and a pastor are different because they are presented in scripture as two different titles, and 2) the implication from scripture is that 'pastor' represents a lead, or head role of one of the elders.

In your post #33 you wrote: ''THE BIBLE MAKES A DISTINCTION BETWEEN PASTOR AND AN ELDER." I ask you to show us in the Bible where such distinction is made. You cannot do it.

What is it about 'pastor' and 'elder' as it is used in scripture by virtue of them being different words is not distinguishable to you? If they were one and the same thing 'elder' (or pastor) would suffice to describe the function of shepherd in the church, but as it is, Christ is described as the "that great Shepherd ('pastor'-Strong's 4166) of the sheep" (Heb. 13:20 NIV1984), while at the same time there are 'pastors' (Strong's 4166 again) ordained in the church, as well as elders (Strong's 4245). Both being distinctly noted from each other through the use of a different word for each. But you say they are one and the same thing with the identical function.

You also wrote: "( --- I ALSO KNOW THAT A PASTOR IS ALSO AN ELDER). Although you have not said so, I assume you understand the pastor to be the preacher.

No. A preacher is a herald, a proclaimer of the gospel, like in an evangelistic role. Some pastors may have that gift/ calling, some may not. But ALL pastors should have the gift of teaching...and should be making it the centerpiece of the meeting of the saints (in keeping with the topic of this thread).

If so, if as you say "a pastor is also an elder", ( and I also believe an elder is a pastor, vice versa)...

...which is where we differ. I do not believe it is 'vice versa', as I have explained above.

...then the pastor (preacher) must meet the qualifications for an elder.

Yes! Because a pastor is indeed an elder (but not all elders have the title of 'pastor').

Both Timothy and Titus say he is to be a man, be married and have children and the children must be faithful. Some preachers are not married and do not have children and in todays world some preachers are not even men.

And it's no surprise to me that the church does not abide by the guidelines for how the church should operate set down by Paul. No surprise to me at all.

Good talk. I'm enjoying this. Discussion inspires me, and I hope it does you to. Gee, we might actually be fulfilling what God intended for his people when they meet together, even if it is via modern electronic technology. God bless you.

 

[Webb]

Hi Jethro
We finally have some agreement, the pastor is not the preacher. Thats good. I assumed you thought that since most denominations refer to the preacher as the "pastor" or "Reverend." While it is my understanding that the preacher may. if needed, also be an elder providing he (1) desires the office (I Tim.3:1) and meets the scriptural qualifications following vs.1, yet under no circumstances are preachers "reverends" as is popular in denominationalism. So, we have at last some common ground I trust.

Yet you continue to insist that the pastor "IS THE ROLE OF THE HEAD, OR LEAD ELDER." It is this that I deny and will continue to press you for Biblical reference. WHERE does the scripture teach the pastor to be the "head, or lead elder"? It is this thought which had a part in the birth of the Roman Catholic Church which culminated in the pope and other unscriptural titles they assume.

You wrote in post 35: ''---AN ELDER AND A PASTOR ARE DIFFERENT BECAUSE THEY ARE PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE AS TWO DIFFERENT TITLES-- ." I will prayerfully show that they are the same individual wearing different titles denoting his various functions. For example in the above mentioned scripture ( I Tim.3:1) he is called "bishop" and the qualifications for that office follow vs. 1. Yet in Titus 1:5 the same qualifications are demanded for the office of "elder". Same man. In one place he is called "bishop" and in another place "elder." By way of illustration a man may be a father, brother, and uncle all at the same time. Same man but different titles describing his different relations in the family. I contend the same is true in the matter of "pastor" and "elder" and that there is no "lead" or "head" "elder".

And of course, God bless

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet you continue to insist that the pastor "IS THE ROLE OF THE HEAD, OR LEAD ELDER." It is this that I deny and will continue to press you for Biblical reference. WHERE does the scripture teach the pastor to be the "head, or lead elder"?

You wrote in post 35: ''---AN ELDER AND A PASTOR ARE DIFFERENT BECAUSE THEY ARE PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE AS TWO DIFFERENT TITLES-- ." I will prayerfully show that they are the same individual wearing different titles denoting his various functions. For example in the above mentioned scripture ( I Tim.3:1) he is called "bishop" and the qualifications for that office follow vs. 1. Yet in Titus 1:5 the same qualifications are demanded for the office of "elder". Same man. In one place he is called "bishop" and in another place "elder."

We know bishop and elder are plainly one and the same from Titus 1 alone where the terms are used interchangeably in the exact same context. But that same kind of connection between 'pastor' and 'elder' is not made in the scriptures.

In the scriptures 'pastor' is used to describe Christ as the head 'pastor'. So when Paul speaks of the office of 'pastor' in the church in Ephesians 4 (not elder, not bishop as in other places) this suggests a similar element of headship for that office within the church that 'pastor' has in regard to Christ, but which 'elder' does not.

 

[Webb]

Good morning Jethro

Having shown that "bishop" and ''elder" are the same person and office ( I Tim.3 and Titus 1 ) I shall now show from the scripture that "elders" and "overseers" are the same office describing different functions of that office.

Please turn to the passage I have oft referred you to to proove, yes, proove that elders are pastors. Actrs 20:17 reads: "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church." Here they are termed "elders''. In verse 28 (same chapter, same context) these men are termed "overseers". Elders are overseers and overseers are elders and note it is always plural not singular. Two different titles given the same class of men describing their functions, plural. As I said before a man may be a husband, father and son; different relations, different functions yet the same man.

My PC continues to be troubled. A repair man will come today (for the 4th time) so this may be my last post.

May God bless you with a good day.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good morning Jethro

Having shown that "bishop" and ''elder" are the same person and office ( I Tim.3 and Titus 1 ) I shall now show from the scripture that "elders" and "overseers" are the same office describing different functions of that office.

Please turn to the passage I have oft referred you to to proove, yes, proove that elders are pastors. Actrs 20:17 reads: "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church." Here they are termed "elders''. In verse 28 (same chapter, same context) these men are termed "overseers". Elders are overseers and overseers are elders and note it is always plural not singular. Two different titles given the same class of men describing their functions, plural. As I said before a man may be a husband, father and son; different relations, different functions yet the same man.

My PC continues to be troubled. A repair man will come today (for the 4th time) so this may be my last post.

May God bless you with a good day.

We know elders are overseers. What you can't do is show all elders are pastors.

I have the feeling that the real agenda you're defending here is the plurality of elders argument. No argument from me on that. What I think the scriptures point to is that a pastor is a prominent, or head elder. James and Peter would be good examples of this.

There's no reason to not let churches choose one elder to be the lead elder. It works. Like in the home, if you don't have a designated head you really just end up with a confusing and inefficient way to lead. In this time in church history all you have to do is go to the church you feel has a structure of leadership that works. This is not a big issue really. I'm of the opinion that people who struggle and strain to change their church should not do that. They need to just go find one that is doing things the way they think they should be done. Let the Catholics do what they want. Catholics don't have to be Catholics that we need to insist their concept of 'pastor' is wrong.

 

[Webb]

NB

Hi Jetho

The PC repairman has not arrived yet so maybe I can get this post in, or partially at least.

In your post #39 you wrote: ''I HAVE A FEELING THAT THE REAL AGENDA YOUR'RE DEFENDING HERE IS THE PLURALITY OF ELDERS ARGUMENT.'' Not so. I mention their plurality because some who read this have churches in which there is but one elder. The scriptures teach a plurality, and my mentioning this has nothing to do per se with our subject.

You wrote: ''WHAT I THINK THE SCRIPTURES POINT TO IS THAT A PASTOR IS A PROMINENT, OR HEAD ELDER.'' Jethro, I have asked you time and again where the scriptures fo teach. They neither teach nor do they point, nor do they imply any such thing as a "head" or "lead" "elder." If so cite it. You then wrote:''JAMES AND PETER WOULD BE GOOD EXAMPLES OF THIS." I ask you, was James an elder? Perhaps I need refreshing on that one. Peter was, but his case was exceptional for he was an apostle. Your example does not fit.

You wrote: ''THERE'S NO REASON NOT TO LET CHURCHES CHOOSE ONE ELDER TO BE THE LEAD ELDER." Well, at least 2 reasons apply here. (1) This thread on on 'CHOOSING A CHURCH." If its a man-made church (as many are) then there is ''NO REASON NOT TO LET CHURCHES CHOOSE ONE ELDER TO BE THE LEAD ELDER."But, if its Christ's church it makes all the difference because; (2) There is no scripture teaching, pointing, suggesting or even infering such, and as I have asked repededly if you know of such scripture please come forth and we WILL examine it.

Now, lets review. You have agreed that the office of bishop and elder are the same refering to the same class of men. You have agreed in your last post that the office of elder and overseer are also the same. So lets now go one step further. Acts 20: ''TAKE HEED THEREFORE UNTO YOURSELVES, AND TO ALL THE FLOCK, OVER WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, WHICH HE HATH PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD. FOR I KNOW THIS, THAT AFTER MY DEPARTING SHALL GRIEVOUS WOLVES ENTER IN AMONG YOU, NOT SPARING THE FLOCK ----- THEREFORE WATCH--" Verses 28, 29 and part of vs.31. Please note:
1. "Take heed to all the flock"-----The work of a pastor, shepherd.
2. "Over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers." Pastors are over but one flock.
3. "To feed the church of God" --- The work of the pastor is to feed.
4. "Therefore watch." --- Pastors, shepherds "watch" their flock.
The above describes the work of elders, overseers as the work of a pastor or shepherd therefore from scripture it is concluded an elder is also a pastor. Same man with different titles because of different responsibilities upon him.

God bless