Choosing a Church

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: NB

Hi Jetho

The PC repairman has not arrived yet so maybe I can get this post in, or partially at least.

In your post #39 you wrote: ''I HAVE A FEELING THAT THE REAL AGENDA YOUR'RE DEFENDING HERE IS THE PLURALITY OF ELDERS ARGUMENT.'' Not so. I mention their plurality because some who read this have churches in which there is but one elder. The scriptures teach a plurality, and my mentioning this has nothing to do per se with our subject.

You wrote: ''WHAT I THINK THE SCRIPTURES POINT TO IS THAT A PASTOR IS A PROMINENT, OR HEAD ELDER.'' Jethro, I have asked you time and again where the scriptures fo teach. They neither teach nor do they point, nor do they imply any such thing as a "head" or "lead" "elder." If so cite it. You then wrote:''JAMES AND PETER WOULD BE GOOD EXAMPLES OF THIS." I ask you, was James an elder? Perhaps I need refreshing on that one. Peter was, but his case was exceptional for he was an apostle. Your example does not fit.

You wrote: ''THERE'S NO REASON NOT TO LET CHURCHES CHOOSE ONE ELDER TO BE THE LEAD ELDER." Well, at least 2 reasons apply here. (1) This thread on on 'CHOOSING A CHURCH." If its a man-made church (as many are) then there is ''NO REASON NOT TO LET CHURCHES CHOOSE ONE ELDER TO BE THE LEAD ELDER."But, if its Christ's church it makes all the difference because; (2) There is no scripture teaching, pointing, suggesting or even infering such, and as I have asked repededly if you know of such scripture please come forth and we WILL examine it.

Now, lets review. You have agreed that the office of bishop and elder are the same refering to the same class of men. You have agreed in your last post that the office of elder and overseer are also the same. So lets now go one step further. Acts 20: ''TAKE HEED THEREFORE UNTO YOURSELVES, AND TO ALL THE FLOCK, OVER WHICH THE HOLY GHOST HATH MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD, WHICH HE HATH PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD. FOR I KNOW THIS, THAT AFTER MY DEPARTING SHALL GRIEVOUS WOLVES ENTER IN AMONG YOU, NOT SPARING THE FLOCK ----- THEREFORE WATCH--" Verses 28, 29 and part of vs.31. Please note:
1. "Take heed to all the flock"-----The work of a pastor, shepherd.
2. "Over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers." Pastors are over but one flock.
3. "To feed the church of God" --- The work of the pastor is to feed.
4. "Therefore watch." --- Pastors, shepherds "watch" their flock.
The above describes the work of elders, overseers as the work of a pastor or shepherd therefore from scripture it is concluded an elder is also a pastor. Same man with different titles because of different responsibilities upon him.

God bless

I don't know what else to say except what I've already said. All you keep doing is showing how elders have shepherding duties. We know this. The matter we're discussing is whether the Bible suggests the role of head, or lead elder among all the elders in the church--a role called 'pastor', not just 'elder'. You have not shown there is not. But I certainly respect how you see that it does not infer that. I don't have to agree with it, and I don't, but since it's not as plainly taught as some would like to think it is, we are both at liberty to accept what we choose to believe about it. I will attend a church that appoints a head, or lead pastor from among the elders, and you can choose not to.

I don't believe for a minute it's as serious a matter as you seem to be suggesting it is. Really. I'm more concerned that the leadership of the church, whether that be a group of elders, a group of elders and a head pastor, or a pastor alone, have the teaching of the entire counsel of God as the very foundation and purpose for meeting together. Not the only purpose, but the foundational one. When choosing a church that may well be the most important factor to consider. That is more important than how that teaching is administered to the church through the leadership of the church (pastor/elders, elders only, pastor only). If someone is sure they have the right leadership structure but does not have teaching as the cornerstone of the church you don't have a Biblical church to worry about the leadership structure anyway, IMO.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God's direction -

"When one looks for a church, does one want a church that believes exactly as he, or she, does, or does one want a church that will provide a group of loyal friends?"

One should look for a church until he finds the one that God lets him know is "Home", and stick with it until he's either "Led OUT", and into another church, or forced to leave through circumstances - like relocation.

Every church is a "Mixed bag" of truth, error, fellowship, rejection, good and bad relationships, celebrations, disappointments, & betrayals.

 

[Nick]

I agree with Webb and would add these as practical application in finding a true bible believing church:

1) The church must be preaching the Word of God from the pulpit. Is the message clearly rooted in scripture or is it just a lot of opinion and fluff?

2) Does the church offer inreach and outreach? Inreach meaning feeding the flock of beleivers with bible study, prayer meetings, suport groups, small groups, and so on. Out reach meaning supporting missions, evangelizing, serving the community, ect. There should be a balanced approach.

3) Is there a balance between the love of God and the justice of God taught by the pastors and lived out in the life of the members? A church that teaches all love and ignores sin and repentance should be avoided. The other extreme is also bad -- all sin and judgment with no love of God and forgiveness.

I'll add you should not be attending a church just to be around friends or family if there are problems with the fundamental theology or other warning signs I have listed above.

What great adivce!

I would add that churches aren't perfect, and won't always line up 100% with what we're looking for, or what we perceive as 100% Biblical doctrine, but we should consider what is ok to us if there is a difference on belief on, and what we consider core beliefs.

 

[Webb]

Jethro on post 41 you wrote: "ALL YOU KEEP DOING IS SHOWING HOW ELDERS HAVE SHEPHERDING DUTIES." So now you admit elders do "have shepherding duties. Thank you. There is a secular saying "that if a thing looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, it must be a duck." Even so, if the scriptures teach that elders have pastoring duties then they must be pastors and I ask you, if not, why not?

Again, you write: ''THE MATTER WE'RE DISCUSSING IS WHETHER THE BIBLE SUGGESTS THE ROLE OF HEAD, OR LEAD ELDER AMONG ALL THE ELDERS IN THE CHURCH --- A ROLE OF PASTOR, NOT JUST ELDER." And I continue to ask you (how many times now, I can't keep count ) where does the Bible teach or even suggest such thing as "lead" or "head" "elder"? Find that please and this part of our discussion is over, but until you I shall continue pressing you for it. As far as the rest of this paragraph I've quoted from I refer you to my 1st paragraph above.

Again, you write: ''IF SOMEONE IS SURE THEY HAVE THE RIGHT LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE BUT DOES NOT HAVE TEACHING AS THE CORNERSTONE OF THE CHURCH YOU DON'T HAVE A BIBLICAL CHURCH TO WORRY ABOUT LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE ANYWAY, IMO." But, if you do not have scriptural leadership structure, ( and I have shown you do not ) then that error in itself leaves the door wide open for other errors. In the congregation Iattend we have 5 elders. Not one of them is the "head" elder. They shepherd, feed the flock, teach. Each one teaches a public class. Each one can and will conduct home Bible studies with both Christians and non-Christians. My wife teaches one of the ladies Bible classes. At times the class may use a book written by a Christian, usually a woman (on Bible subjects of course) but before that happens EACH elder must first have read the book before approved for class. Thats pastoring, feeding the flock right down to the least degree. BTW what does IMO stand for?

I now provide for you another scripture: ''the elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the suffeings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shallbe revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" I Pet.5: 1-4. Now, take notice. These elders do what? They "feed the flock"! Thats what pastors do, do they not?
Again, the duck! Peter calls these men "elders", says they are to do the labor of a "pastor", a shepherd, and then Peter mentions the appearing of the "chief Shepherd." What more do you need? Elders are pastors, shepherds. And BTW Jethro, the only lead, or head pastor, shepherd mention in the church IS JESUS, thus I continue to challenge you to show that in a congregation any man can assume the "head" pastor role.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro on post 41 you wrote: "ALL YOU KEEP DOING IS SHOWING HOW ELDERS HAVE SHEPHERDING DUTIES." So now you admit elders do "have shepherding duties.

Oi vey...I'm sure this has degraded to the point where you and I are the only ones reading this thread. Why have you not given me the courtesy of reading and understanding all my posts????? This is not what is in debate. And do I have to repost what I've already shared to show you you're not seeing that I'm not saying anything new? I already don't like the forums because of how time consuming it is. You make it worse by not seeing everything I share the first time around and force me to repeat or repost what I say.

...you write: ''THE MATTER WE'RE DISCUSSING IS WHETHER THE BIBLE SUGGESTS THE ROLE OF HEAD, OR LEAD ELDER AMONG ALL THE ELDERS IN THE CHURCH --- A ROLE OF PASTOR, NOT JUST ELDER." And I continue to ask you (how many times now, I can't keep count ) where does the Bible teach or even suggest such thing as "lead" or "head" "elder"? Find that please and this part of our discussion is over, but until you I shall continue pressing you for it. As far as the rest of this paragraph I've quoted from I refer you to my 1st paragraph above.

I shared that already. Please, for the sake of time (and sanity) read what I've already posted. I think I articulated it well enough for you to understand the scriptural basis for what I believe about this. If you can't see that I don't know what else to do.

Again, you write: ''IF SOMEONE IS SURE THEY HAVE THE RIGHT LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE BUT DOES NOT HAVE TEACHING AS THE CORNERSTONE OF THE CHURCH YOU DON'T HAVE A BIBLICAL CHURCH TO WORRY ABOUT LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE ANYWAY, IMO." But, if you do not have scriptural leadership structure, ( and I have shown you do not ) then that error in itself leaves the door wide open for other errors.

What's the danger of 'other errors' if you do not have teaching the Bible as the foundation in your church anyway(through whatever pastor/elder arrangement you have)? How does a particular system of pastors/elders going to fix that fundamental problem? That's the point.

I'll take a church that has a single pastor and no elders (never heard of one...but anyway) that has Bible teaching/discussion as it's very foundation and purpose for meeting over a church with five elders who emphasize other things other than teaching (evangelism, helps, etc.) any day of the week.

BTW what does IMO stand for?

'In my opinion'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I now provide for you another scripture: ''the elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the suffeings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shallbe revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away" I Pet.5: 1-4. Now, take notice. These elders do what? They "feed the flock"! Thats what pastors do, do they not?
Again, the duck! Peter calls these men "elders", says they are to do the labor of a "pastor", a shepherd, and then Peter mentions the appearing of the "chief Shepherd."

We know elders shepherd the flock. That is not the point of debate. Go back and read my posts, I've been saying this all along.

The point of debate is, among those who do the shepherding (the elders/bishops), God has appointed 'pastors' who are elders but who are in a lead or head role among the elders just as Christ, an elder and bishop himself, is distinguished by that title as being head over the others who shepherd the flock. If Paul never used the word 'pastor' to describe an office in the church itself besides Christ you would be right in that Christ is the ONLY pastor. But as it is, the distinction is made between 'pastor' and 'elder', and by virtue of how those titles are used elsewhere we can see the suggestion that 'pastor' is an office that is distinguished from that of 'elder'. If you read slow and with thoughtful consideration for what I'm saying I'm confident you'll understand what I'm saying...whether you agree with it or not.

Do a simple word study in Strong's concordance for pastors 4166; elders 4245; chief shepherd 750; bishop 1984/1985; and see all the places where those are used. You have to understand the different words for these titles and where they are used to have an appreciation for what I'm saying.

Part of being a mature believer is to be able to purposely examine scripture with another person's point of view in mind--in effect, try to make what you read correct according to what they believe. You'll be amazed at what you'll learn, and more importantly, how to have respect for how and why people believe the things they do and begin to treat them with dignity and respect and end the pride of knowledge game we are so prone to play in the church. Which is the more important thing that counts and matters in the kingdom above what doctrines you and I believe and defend.

 

[Webb]

Jethro--

Regarding your post # 46, I endorse your last paragraph.

I do not have your edition of Strong, but I DO have the scriptures and believe them to be sufficient, and being sufficient, I do not find them teaching your position.

However, I find upon reading back posts that you are getting closer to what I believe the scriptures teach so I encourage you to take heart and continue prayerful study as I have no doubt you will.

You wrote: ''THE POINT OF DEBATE IS, AMONG THOSE WHO DO THE SHEPHERDING ( THE ELDERS/BISHOPS ), GOD HAS APPOINTED 'PASTORS' WHO ARE ELDERS BUT WHO ARE IN A LEAD OR HEAD ROLE AMONG THE ELDERS---" So, not you agree "pastors" are "elders". Thank you. BUT I continue to ask you and I have done this I believe in each of my posts WHERE is that scripture which says ''GOD HAS APPOINTED 'PASTORS' WHO ARE ELDERS BUT WHO ARE IN A LEAD OR HEAD ROLE AMONG THE ELDERS" ??? Find the inspired passage and our discussion is concluded.

Wishing you the very best

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...I find upon reading back posts that you are getting closer to what I believe the scriptures teach so I encourage you to take heart and continue prayerful study as I have no doubt you will.

You wrote: ''THE POINT OF DEBATE IS, AMONG THOSE WHO DO THE SHEPHERDING ( THE ELDERS/BISHOPS ), GOD HAS APPOINTED 'PASTORS' WHO ARE ELDERS BUT WHO ARE IN A LEAD OR HEAD ROLE AMONG THE ELDERS---" So, not you agree "pastors" are "elders". Thank you.

Here is the very first sentence of my very first response to you in this thread:

"My understanding is the pastor is basically the head elder." (Jethro Bodine post 22)

So I don't understand what you mean by 'So, not (sic) you agree "pastors" are "elders"'.

 

[Webb]

Thanks you Jethro for the correction. NOW, where is the scripture teaching ''THE PASTOR IS BASICALLY THE HEAD ELDER"? I have continously, again and again asked for it. Since you have not produced it I can only conclude that from my studies and YOURS there is NONE! Your doctrine then can only be based on sand.

 

[reba]

Ya might try looking up the old English meaning to the word elder..

http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm

 

[elijah23]

So you don't believe that God has called and anointed certain individuals to do this as a special and particular calling, and that we are all teachers equally the same?

Simple observation shows this to be hardly true at all.

Jesus told us not to call ourselves teachers (Matt 23:8). That doesn't mean we can't learn from each other. I am always learning from other people.

 

[elijah23]

the church must have good doctrine! I won't be comfortable in a church that has 90 percent elderly people - so, there should be about 70 percent youth. (It should be technologically sound - not unnecessarily expensive)

Finally, wow! A lovely choir and a good band:sing:guitar

There are no perfect churches. One comes to appreciate loyal friends.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus told us not to call ourselves teachers (Matt 23:8). That doesn't mean we can't learn from each other. I am always learning from other people.

"11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers" (Ephesians 4: NIV1984)


Jesus said we should not be called 'rhabbi' and 'kathēgētēs'. He did not issue a prohibition against being called 'didaskalos'. And that is the term Paul and others use to speak of teachers who have been appointed to do that in the church. It's okay to be called that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thanks you Jethro for the correction. NOW, where is the scripture teaching ''THE PASTOR IS BASICALLY THE HEAD ELDER"? I have continously, again and again asked for it. Since you have not produced it I can only conclude that from my studies and YOURS there is NONE! Your doctrine then can only be based on sand.

"The Bible makes a distinction between a pastor and an elder. If all the church had was elders, why does the Bible also speak of the office of pastor?" (Jethro Bodine post #33)

"I'm suggesting to you that 'pastor' (as opposed to 'elder') is the role of the head, or lead elder (notice I said lead 'elder', not lead 'pastor'). All pastors are elders, but not all elders are pastors. Though it's not spelled out in scripture (thus the nature of my 'opinion' of what a pastor is compared to just an elder) we know 1) an elder and a pastor are different because they are presented in scripture as two different titles, and 2) the implication from scripture is that 'pastor' represents a lead, or head role of one of the elders." (Jethro Bodine post #35)

"If they were one and the same thing 'elder' (or pastor) would suffice to describe the function of shepherd in the church, but as it is, Christ is described as the "that great Shepherd ('pastor'-Strong's 4166) of the sheep" (Heb. 13:20 NIV1984), while at the same time there are 'pastors' (Strong's 4166 again) ordained in the church, as well as elders (Strong's 4245). Both being distinctly noted from each other through the use of a different word for each. But you say they are one and the same thing with the identical function." (Jethro Bodine post #35)

"We know bishop and elder are plainly one and the same from Titus 1 alone where the terms are used interchangeably in the exact same context. But that same kind of connection between 'pastor' and 'elder' is not made in the scriptures.

In the scriptures 'pastor' is used to describe Christ as the head 'pastor'. So when Paul speaks of the office of 'pastor' in the church in Ephesians 4 (not elder, not bishop as in other places) this suggests a similar element of headship for that office within the church that 'pastor' has in regard to Christ, but which 'elder' does not." (Jethro Bodine post #37)

"The point of debate is, among those who do the shepherding (the elders/bishops), God has appointed 'pastors' who are elders but who are in a lead or head role among the elders just as Christ, an elder and bishop himself, is distinguished by that title as being head over the others who shepherd the flock. If Paul never used the word 'pastor' to describe an office in the church itself besides Christ you would be right in that Christ is the ONLY pastor. But as it is, the distinction is made between 'pastor' and 'elder', and by virtue of how those titles are used elsewhere we can see the suggestion that 'pastor' is an office that is distinguished from that of 'elder'. If you read slow and with thoughtful consideration for what I'm saying I'm confident you'll understand what I'm saying...whether you agree with it or not." (Jethro Bodine post #46)

 

[elijah23]

"11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers" (Ephesians 4: NIV1984)


Jesus said we should not be called 'rhabbi' and 'kathēgētēs'. He did not issue a prohibition against being called 'didaskalos'. And that is the term Paul and others use to speak of teachers who have been appointed to do that in the church. It's okay to be called that.

My Bible says this:

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. Matt 23:8 RSV

 

[Igloo]

Believing the main tenets of the faith is the most important thing. Of course, if you can't make friends in your new church because everyone has a cold shoulder, I would have to wonder if they really understood the gospel at all. (The greatest commandment is...)

 

[elijah23]

"11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers" (Ephesians 4: NIV1984)


Jesus said we should not be called 'rhabbi' and 'kathēgētēs'. He did not issue a prohibition against being called 'didaskalos'. And that is the term Paul and others use to speak of teachers who have been appointed to do that in the church. It's okay to be called that.

You shouldn’t let others do your thinking for you. You have a Bible and can read it. You can pray constantly as Paul instructed (1 Thess 5:17), and you can listen for what the Lord is saying to you.

 

[elijah23]

Believing the main tenets of the faith is the most important thing. Of course, if you can't make friends in your new church because everyone has a cold shoulder, I would have to wonder if they really understood the gospel at all. (The greatest commandment is...)

Don’t underestimate the value of a loyal friend.

Here is the great and first commandment:

[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment. Matt 22:37-38 RSV

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You shouldn’t let others do your thinking for you. You have a Bible and can read it. You can pray constantly as Paul instructed (1 Thess 5:17), and you can listen for what the Lord is saying to you.

But the Lord has spoken. He said we are not to be called 'rhabbi' and 'kathēgētēs'. He did not issue a prohibition against being called 'didaskalos'. If he did were Luke, Paul, James, and whoever the author of Hebrews is, not listening to what the Lord said?

 

[reba]

Did Jesus speak Greek? Why do i think He spoke Aramaic or Hebrew?