Christ applies redemption as well!

[journeyman]

journeyman
False statement nowhere in scripture, all for whom Christ died , by His death were redeemed from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13

I'm saddened you think you dont need to follow Christ to be saved. That is precisely how we got into this mess. Satan telling Eve( the church ) she didnt have to follow what God said.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

Therefore I make known to you that no onespeaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; 1Cor.12:3
NASB20

Because He bore their sins on the Tree 1 Pet 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

regard the patience of our Lord as salvation just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their owndestruction. 2Pet.3:15-16

It's good to examine how people can be seen as "cursed by Moses law."

I think the Reformers as knowledeable as they were didnt know what the law actually says, but here's a monster clue.

Nowhere in scripture do we see ANYONE saying "Jesus is accursed"...except by those who didnt know Him.

 

[journeyman]

@brightflame52
I wish you understood I'm not saing "We're saved by works."

I'm saying we're saved by believing Jesus suffered, rather than bringing us to judgement fir sinning aganst Him...for committinhg atrocities aganist Him...against God... patuently enduring the abuse of sinners without striking us down,

When the Lamb returns, He's coming as the Lion of Judah.

 

[journeyman]

Dear sweet Lord Jesus open our eyes before it's too late.

 

[journeyman]

@brightflame52
I dont need to be right if Im wrong. If im saying simething thats wrong i want your correction, but im not wrong about this point.
I don't know how people like John Calvin or any of the other "pillars" of the Christian faith stumbled here but I know without doubt they did. I am not judging them I just don't understand how they became entangled in this heresy.

 

[journeyman]

Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. Heb.5:8 NASB95

Cults use this to prove "Jesus and God because he needed to learn."

He means as an example to us,

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.” Heb.12:4-6

he means we are saved because God suffered in the flash rather than judge us. We are not saved because we suffer. We are saved because He suffered.

f you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—_b]then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. [/b{Heb 12:8 NIV

We can't deliver ourselves by suffering. We can deliver ourselves and others sinners by showing them WHY why Jesus, God in human flesh suffered.

 

[brightfame52]

He fulfilled all Righteousness for His People the Church !

Matt 3:15

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I believe this includes the fulfilling of the Righteousness of the Law Rom 8:4

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Christ's coming to the earth was also in regard to keeping the Law, Honoring it as it should have been Isa 42:21

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

He magnified it by keeping it for His People the Church, Christ as Adam did, did a Representative Work, He lived and died in the behalf of Gods People, those who also had a Representative Union with Him from before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Christ for this Representative Work had all the fruits and graces of the Spirit Isa 11:1-5

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

He was given the Spirit without measure Jn 3:34

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Hence Christ as the Representative Surety of His People while living on Earth doing the Will of God for them Heb 10:7,9

He did for them perform all the Faith and Love to God and His Neighbor as required by the Law, Like when Jesus said to one who questioned Him here:

Matt 22:35-40

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

He has fully for His Church fulfilled The First and Great Commandment of the Law In Vs 37-38 and the second like unto it in Vs 39, So True Believers claim the Faith of Christ as theirs, not their own faith, but that Faith Christ exercised towards God while He was here living as the Surety Representative of His People, fulfilling all Righteousness ! 46

 

[brightfame52]

Brings Fruit unto God !

One of the things Jesus atoning death was purposed to do and does do, it brings fruit unto God. Jesus said on one occasion Jn 12:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

And Paul writes Rom 7:4

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ[His death for you]; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Christ brings forth fruit when those He died for, according to the Will of God bring forth fruit, that was the purpose of His death, without the fruit, it was all in vain.

Christ death accomplished a twofold purpose, that those He died for should be #1 Married to another, because by His death for them they become dead to the Law, in order that they would be married to Christ. How did they become dead to the Law according to the text in Rom 7:4 ?

By the Body of Christ is how, which simply means by His death. Did you know that everyone Christ died for, are born into this world dead to the Law ? Not under its condemning power ! All other men are born condemned by the Law, those Christ did not die for, for instance those in Jn 3:18 cannot and do not believe because they are condemned by the Law, already condemned , their unbelief is evidence of their being already condemned !

But again, not so for those Christ died, because by His death or by the Body of Christ they become dead to the law !47

 

[brightfame52]

Brings Fruit unto God ! 2

Yet It was for a Purpose that by Christ's death they were made dead to the Law, that purpose is " that they should become married to another, that being Jesus Christ, and that occurs when they in conversion believe on Him. Faith in Christ is how they become married to Him, Trusting in the Son, Kissing Him as the Psalmist wrote Ps 2:12

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Kissing the Son is evidence of subjection and esteem and warm affection,

Its the subjection that Paul counsels the Christian wife to have for her husband Eph 5:24

Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

The word subject here is in the passive voice, the church is made subject to Christ by the purpose of God, that part of the purpose of Christ's death, so the church would be married to Him !

And then secondly, He died for them, made them dead to the Law, that they should bring forth fruit unto God, which is to Live by Faith, for this was one of the designs and purposed results of the death of Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

Eternal Justification

That Christ's death alone hath eternally Justified them He died for is seen here Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The word for redemption here lutrósis, means:

(in the Old Testament: ransoming from imprisonment for debt, or from slavery, release from national misfortune, etc.), liberation, deliverance, release.

redemption from the penalty of sin: which constitutes Justification, remission of sin, its a full absolution and acquittance from God, which Christ has obtained for them, if He indeed died for us, and its an Eternal One, an Eternal Redemption /Justification with Eternal effects, by which they shall always be free from any penalty of sin and death, even the second death.

This also applies to them in this blessed regard Heb 10:17

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

They could never be of those who shall yet die in their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24, for that would mean God lied and did remember their sins again ! 47

 

[brightfame52]

He abolished death for them !

Its quite simple, all those Christ died for, by His death alone, He abolished death for them 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

And the Gospel, as a Word of Salvation, is not for all, but strictly for them He abolished death for, which we know cant be for all without exception because we read of many that shall enter into the second death Rev 2:11;20:6,14;21:8 , so its obvious Christ did not die for such, because if He had, their would be no second death for them to go to , it would have been abolished,

But the Gospel is a Savor of Life unto Life 2 Cor 2:16, to them whom Christ has abolished death for, for it results in Life.

 

[brightfame52]

Made Righteous by Christ's Law Keeping for Us !

All for whom Christ lived and died are reckoned by Divine Testimony to be Righteous based solely upon the Covenant Suretyship of Jesus Christ Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

During His Living upon the Earth, all that He did was not for Himself, but in stead and Name of His People Matt 1:21, those given to Him by the Father Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Now He obeyed Gods Law Perfectly in their stead, as well as suffered condemnation in their stead, for their many transgressions against His Holiness and Law.

He for them obeyed the Law and fulfilled all Righteousness Isa 42:21

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. By His Perfect Obedience unto it for His People !

So because of His Federal Headship Law Obedience, the Righteousness of the Law [all that it demands of man] has been fulfilled in them Rom 8:4, and this explains why Rom 5:19b is True

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That because or by the Surety Obedience of One, Jesus Christ in His Federal Headship Capacity [as was adam in the beginning of time] many are made righteous, which is apart from any Gospel Obedience of theirs like faith and repentance, and it was while they were even being enemies and disobedience Rom 5:10 !

 

[brightfame52]

He was made a curse for us !

Gal 3:13,14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Us is everyone Christ died for, His Church Eph 5:25. Now being made a curse for them, He has for them drank damnation dry, so doing by providing a full satisfaction for all their sins, transgressions against the Holy Law of God, and with that all damnation and or condemnation has been removed from them, so much so, that its impossible that any one sinner that He died for, was made a curse for, can ever be of the damned, like these here who believe not Mk 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

2 Thess 2:12

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Even in unbelief those Christ died for, was made a curse for cannot be damned, because His death reconciled them to God while they are in unbelief and enemies Rom 5:10 !

Also none for whom He died, for whom He was made a curse can possibly be of that world which shall be condemned 1 Cor 11:32

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

And since everyone Christ died for cannot be damned, cursed into the lake of fire Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Then the reasonable conclusion is, all who are finally damned, cannot possibly be anyone for whom Christ died, and thats why they did not believe, Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

They cannot believe because they are cursed and damned into perpetual unbelief, because Christ was never made a curse for them ! 48

 

[brightfame52]

Things that accompany the death of Christ !


One of the reasons we know for a certainty that Christ's death was not for all mankind without exception, though it was for all men without distinction, as in different ethnic groups, is because of what His death alone accomplished and what accompanies it. Rom 8:32-34

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The all for whom Christ was delivered up for, with Him being delivered up for them, comes all things.

Two of the all things freely given them is seen in Vs 33 #1 No charge can be laid against them as Gods Elect, that's consistent with non imputation 2 Cor 5:19, and secondly, what is freely given them is Gods Justification of them ! This is based solely on God not sparing His own Son, but delivered Him up for all of them, all the Elect of God !

 

[journeyman]

Things that accompany the death of Christ !


One of the reasons we know for a certainty that Christ's death was not for all mankind without exception, though it was for all men without distinction, as in different ethnic groups, is because of what His death alone accomplished and what accompanies it. Rom 8:32-34

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The all for whom Christ was delivered up for, with Him being delivered up for them, comes all things.

Two of the all things freely given them is seen in Vs 33 #1 No charge can be laid against them as Gods Elect, that's consistent with non imputation 2 Cor 5:19, and secondly, what is freely given them is Gods Justification of them ! This is based solely on God not sparing His own Son, but delivered Him up for all of them, all the Elect of God !

Or God means if His Son tolerated people sinning against Him, showing sinners mercy who did things to our Savior that are "abominations against God" things that cause "desolation"...well, anyway this is what God finds "abominable",

There are six things that the LORD hates, even seven things that are an abomination to Him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift to run to evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a person who spreads discord among family members. Pro.6:16-19

That sounds like what sinners did to Gods Son. It really sounds like the sins of men which Jesus bore. The Messiah sounds exactly like His Abba.

@brightflame
1) Was our Father glad that His Son was tortured for doing nothing wrong?

or,

2) Was our Father glad when His Son patiently endured sin against Himself and forgave sinner who deserved death?

I'm going with #2, because all through the Bible God calls sinners to repentance and freely forgives the truly repentant. So Jesus looks and acts just like His Father.

Which One do you think is right?

Please don't say, "No man can come to Jesus unless God draws him."

If you believe no sinner on Earth can understand why God allowed His Son to suffer unless for some unknown reason God touches a sinners mind apart from common sense, it might sound like you think #1 is right.

 

[brightfame52]

Sin not being imputed !

A Glorious benefit and accomplishment of the atoning death of Christ, that religionist cant receive is this, those Christ died for sin cannot and will not be imputed to them, or charged to them, for they all are the blessed man here Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Sin is not imputed or charged to any sinner Christ died for, for His Blood alone cleanses them from all sin 1 Jn 1:7

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The word purge here is from the word cleanseth in 1 Jn 1:7, they are talking about the very same thing as the result of Christ's death !

Now lets understand something, all of Gods Elect, those Christ died for, before and after conversion have sin in them experimentally, and at times it reigns in them, in their flesh and members Rom 7, such sins as these listed but not limited to them Mark 7:20-23

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


But the good news for them Christ died for is this, even though these sins may harass them, even overcome them, bring them into captivity, give us great pleasure in the flesh, deprive them of sweet fellowship and communion with God, nevertheless God does not charge them to their account, and God sees them still as perfectly righteous, holy and unblameable in His sight, that's the hope of the Gospel Col 1:21-23

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

And True God given Faith rests in and believes this Blessed Truth !
For the Just shall live by Faith !

 

[journeyman]

Free
Would you read post #754 and give me yiur opinion?

 

[journeyman]

Sin not being imputed !

A Glorious benefit and accomplishment of the atoning death of Christ, that religionist cant receive is this, those Christ died for sin cannot and will not be imputed to them, or charged to them, for they all are the blessed man here Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Paul is quoting Psa.1 where David actually meant people who follow Jesus are forgiven,
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Psa.1:1-2

As king Davids' King said,

And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peace makers: for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs isthe kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for sopersecuted they the prophets which were before you. Mt.5:2-12

They said Jesus was cursed by His Father. They lied to the people.

Sin is not imputed or charged to any sinner Christ died for, for His Blood alone cleanses them from all sin 1 Jn 1:7

Our Savior will not charge us for our sins if we ask Him to forgive us and sinners who really really want His forgiveness will learn from God to forgive others.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: Isa.1:18

We both know admitting to God that we are helpless and hopeless without Him is the Truth.

Why is that a problem? Why is it that Calcanists think being able to admit that we are sinners who need Gods' grace is some kind of bragging?

 

[Free]

Or God means if His Son tolerated people sinning against Him, showing sinners mercy who did things to our Savior that are "abominations against God" things that cause "desolation"...well, anyway this is what God finds "abominable",

There are six things that the LORD hates, even seven things that are an abomination to Him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift to run to evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a person who spreads discord among family members. Pro.6:16-19

That sounds like what sinners did to Gods Son. It really sounds like the sins of men which Jesus bore. The Messiah sounds exactly like His Abba.

@brightflame
1) Was our Father glad that His Son was tortured for doing nothing wrong?

or,

2) Was our Father glad when His Son patiently endured sin against Himself and forgave sinner who deserved death?

I'm going with #2, because all through the Bible God calls sinners to repentance and freely forgives the truly repentant. So Jesus looks and acts just like His Father.

Which One do you think is right?

It's both, except that I wouldn't say that the "Father was glad," but that would depend precisely on what one meant by that in each question. There is, perhaps, one main reason Jesus died--to destroy the works of the devil. But that can be broken down into several other reasons, and among them are to redeem all of creation and reconcile it to God. For humans, that meant taking all of humanities sins on himself as a propitiatory sacrifice in our place. This is what the Passover and whole sacrificial system point to and why penal substitutionary atonement makes the most sense. Whatever else one may believe about what happened at the cross and why God planned for it to happen, penal substitution is central. Without it there is no gospel.

 

[journeyman]

It's both, except that I wouldn't say that the "Father was glad," but that would depend precisely on what one meant by that in each question. There is, perhaps, one main reason Jesus died--to destroy the works of the devil. But that can be broken down into several other reasons, and among them are to redeem all of creation and reconcile it to God. For humans, that meant taking all of humanities sins on himself as a propitiatory sacrifice in our place. This is what the Passover and whole sacrificial system point to and why penal substitutionary atonement makes the most sense. Whatever else one may believe about what happened at the cross and why God planned for it to happen, penal substitution is central. Without it there is no gospel.

I'm certain without repentance there is no good news. Even the Feast of Passover required the Israelites to remove all leaven from their homes. A gentile was required to be circumcised if he desired partaking of the sacrifice. We both know those symbols refer to a soft heart toward God an removing sinful thoughts from our minds because of His sacrifice.

Penal substitution was forbidden under the law of Moses and God said in Ezekiel that no father or son of Israel would ever bear the sins of any other Israelite. I've posted this fact plainly stated and mo one has ever commented on it.

The work of the devil is to kill and destroy. Satans' works were defeated by our Savior conquering death , so that we would have no fear of anything.

 

[Free]

I'm certain without repentance there is no good news.

But repentance isn’t itself the good news. The good news is that Jesus died for us, taking the punishment of God upon himself for our sins, so that we could be made spiritually alive and have everlasting life.

Even the Feast of Passover required the Israelites to remove all leaven from their homes. A gentile was required to be circumcised if he desired partaking of the sacrifice. We both know those symbols refer to a soft heart toward God an removing sinful thoughts from our minds because of His sacrifice.

Is that so? That doesn’t seem to be what the Bible teaches:

Deu 16:3 You shall eat no leavened bread with it. Seven days you shall eat it with unleavened bread, the bread of affliction—for you came out of the land of Egypt in haste—that all the days of your life you may remember the day when you came out of the land of Egypt. (ESV)

It’s a remembrance for their hasty deliverance from Egypt, much like the Lord’s Supper is a remembrance of the believer’s deliverance from death and sin by Jesus’s sacrifice—his blood and body given for us.

Mat 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you,
Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (ESV)

Penal substitution was forbidden under the law of Moses and God said in Ezekiel that no father or son of Israel would ever bear the sins of any other Israelite. I've posted this fact plainly stated and mo one has ever commented on it.

And, yet, you have been shown numerous passages which explicitly state that Jesus was the substitutionary sacrifice for our sins to appease the wrath of God. And I don’t think you have addressed those, other than to repeat Ezekiel, which shows that your understanding of that passage is incorrect in believing that it applies to either Jesus’s death or salvation.

Although, I am quite certain I have addressed it. The main point is that each person is responsible for their own sins and will reap the consequences, if they don’t repent and turn from their sins and keep all God’s statutes and does good.

Do you believe in works salvation? What does the law require for atonement of sins?

The work of the devil is to kill and destroy. Satans' works were defeated by our Savior conquering death , so that we would have no fear of anything.

By the works of the devil, I was referring to his role in causing the fall of Adam and Eve, the physical and spiritual death in humans, separating us from God, and usurping the authority God gave to humans.