Christian Beliefs

[seekandlisten]

Hi there. I am here to pose a question about 2 of my biggest issues with the doctrine in christianity. First, I do not believe in the Trinity and I have not found a rational logical reason to believe otherwise. The problem I have is for me to believe in it I need to change my whole understanding of God in relation to man and our spiritual journey. Any thoughts as to why those of you who believe in the Trinity have that belief. I also wouldn't mind hearing reasons others like myself do not believe in said doctrine. Keep in mind this is not a debate simply present your belief and respect others.

The second being is being saved by grace and not works?? Well I believe we are saved by grace shouldn't works follow suit?? It just seems like faulty logic to me in that its like a free pass rather than a journey. On the flip side of that I don't agree entirely with the fact that works alone won't save you. I believe that we can't be saved of our own accord but someone who leads a life as Jesus laid out for us why wouldn't they be saved??

I'll leave you with that for now as I need to go. I won't be back on until probably tomorrow night so I'll respond to any questions then. I hope to enjoy a good discussion here. Thank you for any contributions.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Hi there. I am here to pose a question about 2 of my biggest issues with the doctrine in christianity. First, I do not believe in the Trinity and I have not found a rational logical reason to believe otherwise. The problem I have is for me to believe in it I need to change my whole understanding of God in relation to man and our spiritual journey. Any thoughts as to why those of you who believe in the Trinity have that belief. I also wouldn't mind hearing reasons others like myself do not believe in said doctrine. Keep in mind this is not a debate simply present your belief and respect others.

The second being is being saved by grace and not works?? Well I believe we are saved by grace shouldn't works follow suit?? It just seems like faulty logic to me in that its like a free pass rather than a journey. On the flip side of that I don't agree entirely with the fact that works alone won't save you. I believe that we can't be saved of our own accord but someone who leads a life as Jesus laid out for us why wouldn't they be saved??

I'll leave you with that for now as I need to go. I won't be back on until probably tomorrow night so I'll respond to any questions then. I hope to enjoy a good discussion here. Thank you for any contributions.

Just a couple of random thoughts / responses...

- Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? Do you believe that God moves through us with the power of the Holy Spirit? Do you believe in God? If you believe in these three things than you can believe in the Trinity.

- Jesus dies for our sins as a free gift with no strings attached other than acknowledging that this is what he did and that you believe he is who he says he is. Part of the gig is to try to be more Christ like and to bring the kingdom of God to us right now through helping others. There is no free pass after believing IMHO. All Christians have the obligation to love and help their fellow man as a priority in life instead of a when I get the time to do it thing.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Free]

Any thoughts as to why those of you who believe in the Trinity have that belief.

Because it most fully takes into account all that Scripture reveals about God's being and his relationship to us.

The second being is being saved by grace and not works?? Well I believe we are saved by grace shouldn't works follow suit?? It just seems like faulty logic to me in that its like a free pass rather than a journey. On the flip side of that I don't agree entirely with the fact that works alone won't save you. I believe that we can't be saved of our own accord but someone who leads a life as Jesus laid out for us why wouldn't they be saved??

I'm not sure what your question is but maybe this will answer it:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[seekandlisten]

Just a couple of random thoughts / responses...

- Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? Do you believe that God moves through us with the power of the Holy Spirit? Do you believe in God? If you believe in these three things than you can believe in the Trinity.

- Jesus dies for our sins as a free gift with no strings attached other than acknowledging that this is what he did and that you believe he is who he says he is. Part of the gig is to try to be more Christ like and to bring the kingdom of God to us right now through helping others. There is no free pass after believing IMHO. All Christians have the obligation to love and help their fellow man as a priority in life instead of a when I get the time to do it thing.

Just my thoughts.

I agree with you for the most part here but don't I have to believe that Jesus is God in order to believe in the trinity??

 

[shad]

I agree with you for the most part here but don't I have to believe that Jesus is God in order to believe in the trinity??

I believe Jesus is the Son of God and Savior of the world, but I don't believe that the Bible teaches He is as equal as the Father.

.

 

[handy]

I believe that one has to believe that Jesus is God in order to believe in the Trinity.

May I ask this? What do you believe about the Bible? Do you believe that the Bible is fully inspired by God and is God's truth? Or do you believe that it has been somewhat corrupted by the various translations over the thousands of years, and therefore not completely reliable?

Not going off topic, but it would be hard to explain the Trinity unless we can agree about the Scriptures.

 

[seekandlisten]

Any thoughts as to why those of you who believe in the Trinity have that belief.

Because it most fully takes into account all that Scripture reveals about God's being and his relationship to us.
What Scripture reveals to me brings me to the point of rejecting the trinity as plausible as to my understanding of the trinity. My belief is that God is God, He works through us by the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus was a man.

The second being is being saved by grace and not works?? Well I believe we are saved by grace shouldn't works follow suit?? It just seems like faulty logic to me in that its like a free pass rather than a journey. On the flip side of that I don't agree entirely with the fact that works alone won't save you. I believe that we can't be saved of our own accord but someone who leads a life as Jesus laid out for us why wouldn't they be saved??

I'm not sure what your question is but maybe this will answer it:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

What I was getting at here was the belief that works alone won't save you and only if you believe that Jesus died on the cross for you sins. Let me put it this way.

A persons lives there life in humbleness never shying away from helping out a neighbor. This person leads a life mirroring Jesus' example of love. This person dies without ever believing a man named Jesus died for mankinds sin and that the christian God created the world. Will this person receive eternal life??

Another person grows up in a christian family always participating in any church event. They go out every Saturday and hand out tracts to the homeless telling them Jesus loves them and if they believe in Him they will go to heaven. They host youth group every week. Will this person receive eternal life??

Think about it for a minute as they are not simple yes and no answers.

 

[shad]

A persons lives there life in humbleness never shying away from helping out a neighbor. This person leads a life mirroring Jesus' example of love. This person dies without ever believing a man named Jesus died for mankinds sin and that the christian God created the world. Will this person receive eternal life??

Jesus tells us to "go therefore make disciples of all nations... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Just doing good works is not good enough. There are many people who are doing good works in the world. If we don't accept Jesus' forgiveness of our sins and repent of our ways, we don't have hope of salvation.

Another person grows up in a christian family always participating in any church event. They go out every Saturday and hand out tracts to the homeless telling them Jesus loves them and if they believe in Him they will go to heaven. They host youth group every week. Will this person receive eternal life??

You are doing a good job making your point.

No, just preaching doctrine is not good enough, we should live and practice what Jesus teaches too.

"Faith without deeds is dead".

.

 

[seekandlisten]

I believe that one has to believe that Jesus is God in order to believe in the Trinity.

May I ask this? What do you believe about the Bible? Do you believe that the Bible is fully inspired by God and is God's truth? Or do you believe that it has been somewhat corrupted by the various translations over the thousands of years, and therefore not completely reliable?

Not going off topic, but it would be hard to explain the Trinity unless we can agree about the Scriptures.

I believe the bible is a compilation of Scriptures by Constantine and a Council in short. Do I think they are corrupt? Not exactly. Do I believe man could have tainted the bible as we know it today, possibly but irrelevant. Do I believe there are writings outside of the bible as we know it today that are just as relevant and teach of Jesus. Yes. I believe Scripture to be God-breathed. This is why I believe that the Truth is contained in Constantine's bible despite what effect man has had on it. The problem lies when people accept another man's interpretation of the bible to be true and by blind faith use that belief to interpret what they read in the bible, rather that putting there trust in God and letting the Holy Spirit guide them in Scripture. So in short, yes i believe the bible contains Scripture that reveal God's relation to man, the plan of salvation, and a warning about what is to come. I don't believe the bible to be a history book, a science book, or the one and only book. Does this answer your question as to what I believe about the bible?

 

[handy]

Thanks for the answer. Yes, it helps clarify. There are so many differing beliefs out there, it helps to know where one is coming from.

I asked, because I wanted to ask your opinion of this passage. I shared it in our other discussion, but it fits better in this one:

Hebrews 1:8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

10And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."

 

[seekandlisten]

Thanks for the answer. Yes, it helps clarify. There are so many differing beliefs out there, it helps to know where one is coming from.

I asked, because I wanted to ask your opinion of this passage. I shared it in our other discussion, but it fits better in this one:

Hebrews 1:8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

10And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."

Well, Hebrews 1 is referring to the relationship between the angels, Jesus, and man. Basically the throne of Jesus will last forever. I believe it also talks of that in Revelation when Jesus takes David's throne. This passage also speaks of God restoring the earth to it's original perfection before the separation of man. Hmmm...how can i organize this. To sum it up, Jesus who through enduring as a man on earth and rising to His spot at God's right hand, the plan of salvation, will sit on David's throne on earth and this throne will last forever. God's children will be in this restored earth and will be ministered to by the angels. The reward of eternal life with God.

 

[handy]

I brought this passage up because I believe that this passage is the clearest passage in the Bible regarding the divinity of Jesus.

The person speaking in this passage is God the Father. It is God the Father who says of the Son, Jesus Christ, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."

It is also God the Father who says of the Son, Jesus Christ, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundations of the earth."

This passage is supported by other passages in the Scriptures that clearly point to the Son being God.

Your thoughts?

 

[shad]

This passage is supported by other passages in the Scriptures that clearly point to the Son being God.

Your thoughts?

Most Christians are not scholars of the original Scripture. Jesus' followers should not ostracize anyone just because some believe He is God and we have to believe as such.

Jesus is equal with His Father does not harmonize with many, many of Jesus' statements.

Most Jesus' statements clearly shows that Jesus is subservient to His Father about their relationship.

.

 

[handy]

I'm not aware of any "ostracizing" going on here. We are having a very civil discussion as to the Scriptural support or lack thereof of the divinity of Christ.

Most Jesus' statements clearly shows that Jesus is subservient to His Father about their relationship.

As I am subservient to my husband in our relationship, and yet we are both equal. Submissiveness and equality are two very different things.

Jesus is equal with His Father does not harmonize with many, many of Jesus' statements.

But it does harmonize with many of His other statements.

The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

One cannot, or at least one should not, ignore the fact that the resurrected Jesus accepted the worship of Thomas when Thomas knelt before Him and cried, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28)

Also, if we are to believe that Jesus is not God, then we have an irreconcilable conflict in the Scriptures as to who the Savior is, God or a man.

Is God the only Savior?

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Savior... Jude 1:12

God our Savior. Titus 2:10

...we trust in the living God, who is the Savior. I Timothy 4:10

God my Savior. Luke 1:47

Or is a man, even such a man as Jesus?

...and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world." John 4:42

Here is Jesus speaking: "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:47

We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14

And, here is Peter, who was one of the ones closest to Jesus when He walked here on earth: "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:" 2 Peter 1:1

There are many more texts, texts where it is either Jesus speaking or others speaking of Jesus that point to Jesus being both God and Savior.

As far as Jesus' equality with God, Philippians 2:5-7 explains that Jesus humbled Himself, He Himself took on inequality in order to fulfill His mission here on earth:

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

Again, when it comes to whether or not Jesus Himself believed that He was God, again, I cannot stress the importance of the fact that He accepted Thomas' worship of Him. There is no other person who walked this earth, who was a believer in the true God, that accepted the worship of man.

 

[shad]

I'm not aware of any "ostracizing" going on here. We are having a very civil discussion as to the Scriptural support or lack thereof of the divinity of Christ.

I am talking about over all treatment in the Christian community. It is no secret, friend.

As I am subservient to my husband in our relationship, and yet we are both equal. Submissiveness and equality are two very different things.

Jesus and His father relationship is not like marriage. Jesus is right hand of mighty God. It is clearly says He is second in command.

But it does harmonize with many of His other statements.

Jesus being subservient to His Father out weigh way too many in His Gospels.

"I and the Father are one."

They are in unity in the God's purpose, Jesus is obedient to His Father, remember?

The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)[/color]

This is one of very few you can claim Jesus as as equal with His Father.

[quote:2rpe1yyb]One cannot, or at least one should not, ignore the fact that the resurrected Jesus accepted the worship of Thomas when Thomas knelt before Him and cried, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28)

[/quote:2rpe1yyb]

The same as the above.

 

[shad]

Also, if we are to believe that Jesus is not God, then we have an irreconcilable conflict in the Scriptures as to who the Savior is, God or a man.

Is God the only Savior?

Jesus does not have to be God to be a Savior. His father gave Him power and authority to be Savior of the world.

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Savior... Jude 1:12

God our Savior. Titus 2:10

...we trust in the living God, who is the Savior. I Timothy 4:10

God my Savior. Luke 1:47

Or is a man, even such a man as Jesus?

The same as the above. Without God the Father, there is no Savior.

...and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world." John 4:42

Here is Jesus speaking: "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:47

What does this have to do with what we are talking about.?

We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14

And, here is Peter, who was one of the ones closest to Jesus when He walked here on earth: "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:" 2 Peter 1:1

There are many more texts, texts where it is either Jesus speaking or others speaking of Jesus that point to Jesus being both God and Savior.

Not so. Your quotes are still not many and they are not even talking about Jesus being equal with His Father.

 

[shad]

As far as Jesus' equality with God, Philippians 2:5-7 explains that Jesus humbled Himself, He Himself took on inequality in order to fulfill His mission here on earth:

Why does He have to humble Himself if He is equal with His Father? There is not even one verse God the Father being subservient to Jesus.

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men."

Of course Jesus' followers should humble themselves to both the Father and the Son because we are all under Jesus like Jesus is under His father.

Again, when it comes to whether or not Jesus Himself believed that He was God, again, I cannot stress the importance of the fact that He accepted Thomas' worship of Him. There is no other person who walked this earth, who was a believer in the true God, that accepted the worship of man.

Again, this is one of very few verses you are holding onto to. Jesus' being under His Father out weigh way too many, friend.

 

[shad]

BTW handy,

How did you make your post so lengthy? I had to make it in three part to answer to your long post.

.

 

[Nick]

BTW handy,

How did you make your post so lengthy? I had to make it in three part to answer to your long post.

.

That's strange. The longest a post is allowed is 15,000 characters...and I don't think either of you went over that mark....

 

[shad]

BTW handy,

How did you make your post so lengthy? I had to make it in three part to answer to your long post.

.

That's strange. The longest a post is allowed is 15,000 characters...and I don't think either of you went over that mark....

Maybe just my computer then.

thanks.