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Christian Beliefs
- Thread starter seekandlisten
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handy
Member
OK, let's make this really, REALLY, simple:
Hebrews 1:8: (God speaking of Jesus Christ)
8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
10And, (still God speaking of Jesus Christ here)
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Explain to me how these texts show that Jesus IS NOT GOD.
Make it simple.
Hebrews 1:8: (God speaking of Jesus Christ)
8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
10And, (still God speaking of Jesus Christ here)
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Explain to me how these texts show that Jesus IS NOT GOD.
Make it simple.
handy said:
Handy,
I am not scholar I will not argue about vague conflicted Scriptures. You guys believe Jesus is YHWH too and I dont. YHWH is God the Father.
What is clear in the Scripture is that Jesus is Son of God and was sent by God to be the Lamb of God. Jesus did not claim Himself He is God. But He clearly claims He is Son of God over and over. I go by that.
What is importance is that Jesus is the Savior of the world and without Him no one can be saved. This is without doubt. Why do you guys have to argue about the trinity and try to ostracize others who dont believe the way you do?
Why do you believe Jesus has to be God to be the Savior? You cannot find this claim in the Scripture.
Jesus' Father is our Father and without the Father there is nothing, not even Jesus. Think about it, friend.
This is my last post because I will be gone for a three weeks for my ministry.
Thank you handy for friendly exchange of views.
.
handy
Member
And thank you as well, shad. It's always refreshing to discuss things in a friendly manner in Apologetics and Theology!
Although you're not a bible scholar, the quoted text is so very clear. It is every bit as clear as "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Now, I assume that you embrace John 3:16 as God's simple truth. Why not Hebrews 1:10 or John 1:1-3, which are similarly just as simple and straightforward. Prayerfully consider it, it can open your mind to a wonderful truth about the Son who created the world.
Which is my segue to the point raised in a different thread that seekandlisten questioned.
Here is the post:
I want to clarify that I believe that Jesus wasn't alone in creating the world. I believe that God, the Triune God: Father, Son, and Spirit all worked as One to create the world.
For those who deny that Jesus Christ is God though, John Chapter 1, Hebrews Chapter 1, Colossians chapter 1 all hold some very real problems, because the bible clearly teaches that God created the heavens and the earth and these texts very clearly teach that Jesus created them.
Although you're not a bible scholar, the quoted text is so very clear. It is every bit as clear as "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Now, I assume that you embrace John 3:16 as God's simple truth. Why not Hebrews 1:10 or John 1:1-3, which are similarly just as simple and straightforward. Prayerfully consider it, it can open your mind to a wonderful truth about the Son who created the world.
Which is my segue to the point raised in a different thread that seekandlisten questioned.
Here is the post:
I want to clarify that I believe that Jesus wasn't alone in creating the world. I believe that God, the Triune God: Father, Son, and Spirit all worked as One to create the world.
For those who deny that Jesus Christ is God though, John Chapter 1, Hebrews Chapter 1, Colossians chapter 1 all hold some very real problems, because the bible clearly teaches that God created the heavens and the earth and these texts very clearly teach that Jesus created them.
handy
Member
I understand that shad will be out for a while, but I'm going to post this for consideration by anyone else who troubles over Hebrews 1:8-10:
shad said, "I am not scholar I will not argue about vague conflicted Scriptures."
I would really like to see a list of Scriptures that these, not vague but on the contrary quite clear and concise, verses conflict with.
shad said, "I am not scholar I will not argue about vague conflicted Scriptures."
I would really like to see a list of Scriptures that these, not vague but on the contrary quite clear and concise, verses conflict with.
I'm not implying anything. You said that Jesus Christ is not God. The Bible clearly says that He is. I can only go by what you say. I agree that you don't believe Jesus is God. I find that to be completely contrary to the word of God and this is the reason why most Christians believe Mormon's are a cult.seekandlisten said:
Not my interpretation...the Bible's. I think this is a common tactic that Mormon's like to use. The guy last night said the exact same thing.
Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Nope.
Or one can simply acknowledge that Jesus said plainly He was God.
Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
I am at liberty to say, unequivocally that you preach and teach a different gospel than the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Yes I know.
Not at all and in fact it actually gives credence and authority to His Holy word.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
God answers His word for us Himself. And God's word is not for 'you' to interpret.
Once again the plain meaning to you. Understand here that I'm not saying you are wrong. That is not my place. I firmly believe that God will reveal Himself as He sees fit and that He does this on a personal level. I accept the fact that you don't share the same belief as me as to the divinity of Jesus and how it effects your understanding of the Bible. How one interprets the bible is between them and God and of no concern to me. It is definitely a concern when one attempts to corrupt and pervert the word of God as Mormon's do.
Of course! Jesus Christ is God. The Bible and Jesus Christ says it plainly.
Why, if you are comfortable with your belief system then reading an opposing view should have little consequence. I order the Book of Mormon last night and expect to learn quite a bit about the book from reading it.
You unfortunately wrest the word of God to your own destruction.
cyberjosh
Member
Hello seekandlisten,
Could you elaborate on this experience a little more, as I believe this is pivotal to what you believe? I do not personally believe what I believe because of a hand-me-down faith, and through God's personal working in my life through extraordinary experiences of the Holy Spirit in my life God has truely become my God not just the God of my Church, or of my parents, on my behalf but truely my God. I am only 22 but I already feel God's calling in my life and I feel that God has given me a gift, not to be mishandled or treated lightly, of being a teacher such that I am looking to go to seminary in the next year. It is not this or anything else that gives me any kind of qualification to have a handle on the truth, but only through careful study of Scripture and sincere searching for the truth have I come to hold the convictions I hold. If you would like you can have a look at my website at www.scholarofgod.com which I am using to put my bible studies, among other things, on the internet to hopefully benefit others in the study of Scripture.
With all this said, I feel truely convicted that Jesus is God from purely Scriptual evidence, and I would be glad to discuss it with you. So to an extent I can understand that if you held certain beliefs for a long time that were handed down to you, that when you learned something personally that may have been different from what you had always heard that you might wholely embrace it, but I believe there is a balance that must be acknowledged between Christ's divinity and his humanity. You cannot reject Christ's divinity in favor of his humanity, nor his humanity in favor of his divinity, because he is both - and the Scripture uses unreserved language to emphasize Jesus' divinity despite his humanity. Jesus' humanity is indeed a great revelation, and his complete submission to the Father, but Christ was never absolved of His divinity.
And if I may be allowed one verse of Scripture to ask you about, what do you make of Jesus' prayer to his Father where he said, "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). If Jesus was created, and always a man, how could he be with the Father before the world began and was made, before Adam and Eve were ever created? Earlier I also quoted Hebrews 1:2 which clearly says that God's Son, none other than Jesus, was the agent (the means) through which the world was created. I believe it is clear from Jesus' prayer in John 17:5 that he was preexistent with God the Father before anything was created.
What are your thoughts on that verse?
God Bless,
~Josh
seekandlisten said:
Could you elaborate on this experience a little more, as I believe this is pivotal to what you believe? I do not personally believe what I believe because of a hand-me-down faith, and through God's personal working in my life through extraordinary experiences of the Holy Spirit in my life God has truely become my God not just the God of my Church, or of my parents, on my behalf but truely my God. I am only 22 but I already feel God's calling in my life and I feel that God has given me a gift, not to be mishandled or treated lightly, of being a teacher such that I am looking to go to seminary in the next year. It is not this or anything else that gives me any kind of qualification to have a handle on the truth, but only through careful study of Scripture and sincere searching for the truth have I come to hold the convictions I hold. If you would like you can have a look at my website at www.scholarofgod.com which I am using to put my bible studies, among other things, on the internet to hopefully benefit others in the study of Scripture.
With all this said, I feel truely convicted that Jesus is God from purely Scriptual evidence, and I would be glad to discuss it with you. So to an extent I can understand that if you held certain beliefs for a long time that were handed down to you, that when you learned something personally that may have been different from what you had always heard that you might wholely embrace it, but I believe there is a balance that must be acknowledged between Christ's divinity and his humanity. You cannot reject Christ's divinity in favor of his humanity, nor his humanity in favor of his divinity, because he is both - and the Scripture uses unreserved language to emphasize Jesus' divinity despite his humanity. Jesus' humanity is indeed a great revelation, and his complete submission to the Father, but Christ was never absolved of His divinity.
And if I may be allowed one verse of Scripture to ask you about, what do you make of Jesus' prayer to his Father where he said, "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). If Jesus was created, and always a man, how could he be with the Father before the world began and was made, before Adam and Eve were ever created? Earlier I also quoted Hebrews 1:2 which clearly says that God's Son, none other than Jesus, was the agent (the means) through which the world was created. I believe it is clear from Jesus' prayer in John 17:5 that he was preexistent with God the Father before anything was created.
What are your thoughts on that verse?
God Bless,
~Josh
seekandlisten
Member
RND,
I will ask you one more time to quit making false assumptions/accusations about me. I’ve gone from antichrist, my spirit not being of God, and now I’m a Mormon?? I have not said one of these things. I have made one statement only that all these things come from. I don’t believe Jesus is God/equal to God. Even statements I’ve made in this thread about who I DO believe Jesus to be you ignore and say I don’t believe because of this statement. You said you believe Jesus is God and that doesn’t make me think you are an idol worshiper. If I thought that I would question your motives or are you saying as a proper Christian I should follow your lead and throw out random accusations based on nothing? Have you heard one word I’ve said since my statement that you so strongly oppose?
I can assure you I am not Mormon. I do see that for some reason you have a strong distaste for Mormons. I did talk to 2 Mormons a few years back once that wanted to share their faith. The 2 I talked to were quite pleasant. Well I don’t entirely agree with their set of beliefs I wouldn’t go as far as calling them a cult. I have direct experience of how calling someone’s religion a cult can have a drastic effect on your witness and that persons salvation. I question your motives for reading the book of Mormon though if you consider them a cult?? Well I agree with understanding other people’s religion I guard myself from attack too. Put it this way, I have read about the wiccans and well the only major flaw I see in their religion is the absence of Christ, I wouldn’t read a wiccan spell book. Do you see what I’m getting at? This is where I question your logic.
I have to ask you what is the point of your posts in this thread?? My opening post stated that I want to hear how people come to your belief that Jesus is equal to God the Father. You have done nothing to that matter. If your reason is plainly that’s what the bible says I’m sure your point is made. I am quite aware of passages in the bible that if you take them literally word for word that state Jesus is God. The problem I have is the rest of the bible doesn’t make sense if I take it to mean literally that. I read the NIV and KJV bible if you need that clarified. If you can’t make a logical point I ask that you leave this thread as you have nothing else to add, I think you’ve made your point clear. If you are trying to convert me I ask that you reevaluate your methods as I don’t see evidence of Christ’s love in your post or logic in presenting your point. If I must become like you in order to be a christian, no thanks.
If the reason you keep posting is to get the last word in go right ahead just don’t make statements regarding my character that are false please. You’ve have made a couple very bold posts in regards to the 1000 year reign, me not being able to interpret God’s word, and your authority to condemn me. Some of these points intrigue me as to your reasoning but with the prejudice you bring to the conversation I don’t think there is any point in discussing them. I do ask you if you are catholic? If you are, then I can accept some of your beliefs and reasoning a little better but if you are from some Protestant denomination I really question your logic. I ask you once again if you feel the need to post again in this thread that you refrain from making comments about my beliefs that I have not stated. Thank you.
God Bless
I will ask you one more time to quit making false assumptions/accusations about me. I’ve gone from antichrist, my spirit not being of God, and now I’m a Mormon?? I have not said one of these things. I have made one statement only that all these things come from. I don’t believe Jesus is God/equal to God. Even statements I’ve made in this thread about who I DO believe Jesus to be you ignore and say I don’t believe because of this statement. You said you believe Jesus is God and that doesn’t make me think you are an idol worshiper. If I thought that I would question your motives or are you saying as a proper Christian I should follow your lead and throw out random accusations based on nothing? Have you heard one word I’ve said since my statement that you so strongly oppose?
I can assure you I am not Mormon. I do see that for some reason you have a strong distaste for Mormons. I did talk to 2 Mormons a few years back once that wanted to share their faith. The 2 I talked to were quite pleasant. Well I don’t entirely agree with their set of beliefs I wouldn’t go as far as calling them a cult. I have direct experience of how calling someone’s religion a cult can have a drastic effect on your witness and that persons salvation. I question your motives for reading the book of Mormon though if you consider them a cult?? Well I agree with understanding other people’s religion I guard myself from attack too. Put it this way, I have read about the wiccans and well the only major flaw I see in their religion is the absence of Christ, I wouldn’t read a wiccan spell book. Do you see what I’m getting at? This is where I question your logic.
I have to ask you what is the point of your posts in this thread?? My opening post stated that I want to hear how people come to your belief that Jesus is equal to God the Father. You have done nothing to that matter. If your reason is plainly that’s what the bible says I’m sure your point is made. I am quite aware of passages in the bible that if you take them literally word for word that state Jesus is God. The problem I have is the rest of the bible doesn’t make sense if I take it to mean literally that. I read the NIV and KJV bible if you need that clarified. If you can’t make a logical point I ask that you leave this thread as you have nothing else to add, I think you’ve made your point clear. If you are trying to convert me I ask that you reevaluate your methods as I don’t see evidence of Christ’s love in your post or logic in presenting your point. If I must become like you in order to be a christian, no thanks.
If the reason you keep posting is to get the last word in go right ahead just don’t make statements regarding my character that are false please. You’ve have made a couple very bold posts in regards to the 1000 year reign, me not being able to interpret God’s word, and your authority to condemn me. Some of these points intrigue me as to your reasoning but with the prejudice you bring to the conversation I don’t think there is any point in discussing them. I do ask you if you are catholic? If you are, then I can accept some of your beliefs and reasoning a little better but if you are from some Protestant denomination I really question your logic. I ask you once again if you feel the need to post again in this thread that you refrain from making comments about my beliefs that I have not stated. Thank you.
God Bless
seekandlisten
Member
cyber,
I'm very interested in having a discussion with you. I don't have sufficient time right now to reply to your post but I will as soon as i can.
I'm very interested in having a discussion with you. I don't have sufficient time right now to reply to your post but I will as soon as i can.
I haven't done that. You stated yourself that you did not believe Jesus was God. The Bible states it as fact. It is not about interpretation. It is denying that Jesus Christ is God. That is language from the antichrist. Sorry to be so harsh but denying Jesus is God is simply blasphemy.seekandlisten said:
Denying the deity of Jesus Christ is simply blasphemy.
You mean like posting scripture and stuff?!
You can ask me to leave a thread all you want but I am free to post in this open thread whenever I wish as long as I post within the rules. Nor am I trying to convert you or anything of the sort. What I am attempting to do is point out the blasphemy of denying the deity of Jesus Christ that you spew.
Don't make statement about Jesus that you can't substantiate with scripture. You have consistently stated Jesus isn't God but you have offered precious little evidence other than your opinion.
Nope. You are quite accomplished at deflecting and twisting what people say.
Really, how so?
Your welcome. If you are going to continue to insist that Jesus is not God and deny His deity then I will certainly comment on those posts.
Ben Joiner
Member
seekandlisten
I hope to dialogue with you on the issue of the deity of Christ. I will try to avoid the overall flow of posts because it can be too difficult to keep up with.
You said that you do believe Christ to be the "Savior"?
My follow up question is that, "Do you then believe the Savior to be part of the creation, thereby making the creation it's own Savior?"
As to your question, I believe that God's Sovereignty and man's free will coexist in total harmony. God is not the author of man's evil. If you want me to go into further detail about this i would be delighted, but I wait for further questioning to see exactly what you want to know so as to not waste your time.
I hope to dialogue with you on the issue of the deity of Christ. I will try to avoid the overall flow of posts because it can be too difficult to keep up with.
You said that you do believe Christ to be the "Savior"?
My follow up question is that, "Do you then believe the Savior to be part of the creation, thereby making the creation it's own Savior?"
As to your question, I believe that God's Sovereignty and man's free will coexist in total harmony. God is not the author of man's evil. If you want me to go into further detail about this i would be delighted, but I wait for further questioning to see exactly what you want to know so as to not waste your time.
seekandlisten
Member
Ben Joiner said:
Just to answer your question quickly. Yes I believe Jesus to be our Saviour. You will have to rephrase this question or explaine it?? "Do you then believe the Savior to be part of the creation, thereby making the creation it's own Savior?" I'm not sure what you're getting at. If by creation you mean mankind than no we are not our own saviours. I am quite interested in hearing your beliefs and how you come to them. In an earlier post handy asked me what I believed about the bible which is probably relevant so I would suggest you read that post and if you have any questions I would be more than willing to oblige. "... I believe that God's Sovereignty and man's free will coexist in total harmony. God is not the author of man's evil." For your information i agree with you entirely on these two statements.
Just to further clarify, in the opening post i asked that if you held Jesus to be equal with God or for that matter actually God I asked for your reasoning. Quoting Scriptures that say he is God or allude to it are not a logical reason to me as there are just as many quotes in Scripture saying that God is the Father and Jesus is God's Son. If you want to engage in a conversation about why i come to beliefs that Jesus is not actually God the Father then go ahead and ask if you want to show me why you believe Jesus is God I ask that you present your logic as to how more so than because a verse says so. If you simply believe Jesus is God because Scripture says so, that is enough to let me know where you stand. I was brought up believing this way so I understand how if you believe the bible to be God's spoken word then you have no choice but to believe that. This doesn't however, in my opinion, prove anything logically so it is nothing more than that person's belief and I will respect that. I'm not here to make anybody believe that Jesus is not God. Edited note: this comment highlighted in green refers to my original intent and to anyone posting as a reply, not directed at Ben just a point I added for clarification of what I'm looking for.
I will hopefully be back on here later tonight so I will address this thread again then. I will also reply to you cybershark on your earlier post.
God bless
seekandlisten
Member
cybershark,
I sent you a pm on your first question in your post I'll now review the rest of your post.
I sent you a pm on your first question in your post I'll now review the rest of your post.
seekandlisten
Member
cybershark5886 said:
You put forth your belief in your first sentence for me thank you. The part I disagree with is the based on Scripture alone part. I respect that belief and while i don't doubt that you came to that belief through guidance of the Holy Spirit, I still cannot agree. You believe Jesus to be God based on Scripture alone. I ask what you believe Scripture to be? Reference my earlier post as to my belief of the bible and see if we agree on this point.
"You cannot reject Christ's divinity in favor of his humanity, nor his humanity in favor of his divinity," Now I could almost agree with you on this post. I'm glad you worded it that way. Now, when I say I don't believe Jesus to be God, I mean simply that. I do not equal Jesus to God as person. Now as wrong as I see this logic sounds as we are referring to a spiritual world, we know nothing of this realm other than what God reveals but as I don't know I will describe it how I can in physical form. I am referring to God being Jesus heavenly Father, the same as he is our Father. Jesus simply lived the way we are supposed to and was given his reward in heaven. This a just a basic thought, not all that it entails. Yes he was God's Chosen One, yes he did recieve power from God, but I don't try and explain what all this entailed. Yes I believe he is God's Promise of the OT and that he had a specific purpose in life and for that he now sits with God. In some passages is says Jesus is God, other passages say Jesus is God's Son, or Jesus will sit on the throne at God's right hand?? You can't deny the dilemma.
Now someone at some point in time came up with the trinity as their interpretation of how this comes together and it was accepted and made a part of christian doctrine. Now with from what I understand of the bible, I can't accept this doctrine. Once you start believing Jesus is God, Jesus created the world, etc.. I think that is taking it to far to state as absolute truth and to say it with absolute authority from God. Well I admit Jesus could possibly of been divine, I am not about the state the level of that divinity. I'm am curious as to references of Jesus in the OT of Jesus being God?? I will point out here that I don't agree with verse picking to an extent, as you can come up with all sorts of thinking that way. Everything has to be taken within context.
I your referrence to John 17:5 that is Jesus humbly praying for mankind to be restored the to way we were before Adam and Eve disobeyed. He is praying that he be glorified together with God just as we will be after the resurrection. I don't agree that Jesus was created. Hebrews 1 is talking about God, Jesus, us, and the angels and our relation. There is the one statement you put forward in verse 2 that I don't have an answer for you. I can't explain what that means but God reveals as He sees fit so I look at the overwhelming evidence of what Scripture shows me.
your comments?
Ben Joiner
Member
seekandlisten
well I agree with you that any point as huge as this wouldn't be tucked into a little verse somewhere. I once had a professor who said that the ancient Hebrews did not believe in only one God but worshipped only one. I soon realized that the issue wouldn't be decided by Deut. 32:39. It needed to be in the 10 Commandments to really have the force necessary.
Now a point that is repeatedly made is different to some degree from some lonely little verse. In this instance, the repeated reference to Jesus as "The Lord Jesus Christ" carries some weight. In fact, when it says, "christ our Lord" there is often an understood, "the" in Greek. Such a point should raise eyebrows, not conclude issues. To state what I believe about Jesus in this regard, I believe on the basis of Logic and evidence outside the Bible that Jesus is Saviour and God. So a scripture that disagrees with that I would reject as against Christ. There is much to say, but I basically believe two beings exist that know everything. The only way this is possible is if they know what it means to see the himself from the other's perspective. In this sense, there two different roles of son and father possible, but also a unity that makes them in each other's place. attack as you wish, but I think you may find what I believe more easily understood by following my line of questioning below. this would then make you attacks more poignant to what I actually believe.
In regards to the Inspiration of Scripture which you seem so interested in and rightly so: I believe that the way the Scripture was arrived at was the correct way. It is "You are a Christian and then base your belief in the Bible on it's connection to the Jesus you already know." That's how the judgments they made worked. They looked at the connection of the text to Jesus. And so based on that I believe that the Scriptures we have are inerrant in their original autographs, but not in the copies or translations. But I can read a text and judge it based on its connection to Christ, just as they did in the first place. Any supposed new revelations would have to pass similar tests.
As to the main question of mine. So you believe that mankind does not save itself, but do you believe that a member of creation, if not a member of mankind saved the rest of creation? That is what I am wondering. In other words, you think Jesus is not God, but you may think that God saved us from sin and hell and so you would be just changing names around. The issue I am wondering first is whether you believe that Jesus is "The Saviour." Then if you believe that He is part of the one God's creation. God Himself would obviously not be part of the creation. Jesus, if not God but still Saviour, would then be a member of creation saving the rest of creation. Is this what you believe about soteriology? I have no intention of putting words in your mouth, feel free to take up any issue with the way the question is worded.
also--after scanning the thread, you may find it helpful to make reference to the term "ad hominem attack" it is an informal logical fallacy. Basically it means that a logically valid argument that does not stem from its presenter's authority is not subject to destruction if said author is shown to be fallible. So if it's true without a name attached to it, then it stays true regardless of whose name is attached to it.
well I agree with you that any point as huge as this wouldn't be tucked into a little verse somewhere. I once had a professor who said that the ancient Hebrews did not believe in only one God but worshipped only one. I soon realized that the issue wouldn't be decided by Deut. 32:39. It needed to be in the 10 Commandments to really have the force necessary.
Now a point that is repeatedly made is different to some degree from some lonely little verse. In this instance, the repeated reference to Jesus as "The Lord Jesus Christ" carries some weight. In fact, when it says, "christ our Lord" there is often an understood, "the" in Greek. Such a point should raise eyebrows, not conclude issues. To state what I believe about Jesus in this regard, I believe on the basis of Logic and evidence outside the Bible that Jesus is Saviour and God. So a scripture that disagrees with that I would reject as against Christ. There is much to say, but I basically believe two beings exist that know everything. The only way this is possible is if they know what it means to see the himself from the other's perspective. In this sense, there two different roles of son and father possible, but also a unity that makes them in each other's place. attack as you wish, but I think you may find what I believe more easily understood by following my line of questioning below. this would then make you attacks more poignant to what I actually believe.
In regards to the Inspiration of Scripture which you seem so interested in and rightly so: I believe that the way the Scripture was arrived at was the correct way. It is "You are a Christian and then base your belief in the Bible on it's connection to the Jesus you already know." That's how the judgments they made worked. They looked at the connection of the text to Jesus. And so based on that I believe that the Scriptures we have are inerrant in their original autographs, but not in the copies or translations. But I can read a text and judge it based on its connection to Christ, just as they did in the first place. Any supposed new revelations would have to pass similar tests.
As to the main question of mine. So you believe that mankind does not save itself, but do you believe that a member of creation, if not a member of mankind saved the rest of creation? That is what I am wondering. In other words, you think Jesus is not God, but you may think that God saved us from sin and hell and so you would be just changing names around. The issue I am wondering first is whether you believe that Jesus is "The Saviour." Then if you believe that He is part of the one God's creation. God Himself would obviously not be part of the creation. Jesus, if not God but still Saviour, would then be a member of creation saving the rest of creation. Is this what you believe about soteriology? I have no intention of putting words in your mouth, feel free to take up any issue with the way the question is worded.
also--after scanning the thread, you may find it helpful to make reference to the term "ad hominem attack" it is an informal logical fallacy. Basically it means that a logically valid argument that does not stem from its presenter's authority is not subject to destruction if said author is shown to be fallible. So if it's true without a name attached to it, then it stays true regardless of whose name is attached to it.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
I think the more important question is on what basis do you decide what you believe? Every person on the planet who does not stick to a set God- book- or religion just willy nilly decides what to believe based on what seems right to themselves, what they like, what will be good for them in their own estimation but God in the Holy Scriptures says " your ways are not my ways" He also says " lean not upon your own understanding"seekandlisten said:
The answers to everything you mentioned are clearly layed out in the word of God.
It is wisdom when one comes to believe in the Lord Jesus to fear God and decide not to know or believe anything until it has been revealed to you by the Holy Spirit in the reading of the word of God.If we have not yet read something, we may just admit to not knowing and not yet make a decision on what we believe about that thing except that we believe whatever it is God says is true.
If we read the word of God and filter it through what seems right to us, what is logical and reasonable to us then what we really are doing is worshipping ourselves and relying on ourselves instead of Him.
seekandlisten
Member
GodspromisesRyes said:
Thank you for your post. I agree with you entirely on what you put forth here.