Christian Beliefs

[mutzrein]

seekandlisten

I appreciate the way in which you post - without the arrogance that some display. But it saddens me to see the judgmental responses of some who claim that salvation can only come if it is based on an academic assent of Jesus being God. You speak of having faith in Jesus and I believe that your sincerity is such that the person of Christ will be revealed to you as you ask and and seek for the truth.

I also see the word of God as living. That is, not confined to the pages of a book. This 'word' dwells within me - and many others of course - and it is brought about, solely, by God grace. Man cannot earn the grace of God because he bestows it on those he wills.

You speak of, and have quoted scripture referring to, following Christ's example.
I have two questions regarding this:
Firstly, how would you go about doing that?
Secondly, why do you think you should?

Blessings

 

[toddm]

I see we are running into a dilemma. Let's first separate something here. The Godhead, what is put forth in the Scripture. The trinity, what was put forth by man essentially a another mystery, man's interpretation, explaining another mystery, God's interpetation. My beliefs are that Jesus was a man born of Mary and Joseph. To what extent God worked through this man and to what level of divinity he holds in God's Kingdon I don't have the answers. I do believe that as Jesus was, here on earth as told in the bible, that Jesus was no more than a man like you and me. He holds a spot in God's Kingdom but I'm not about to equal him with God just because. When I try and figure it out it literally blows my mind and sounds absurd. Back to the doctrine in question, the trinity. It has done nothing but be a stumblingblock for christians. Here we get to why I don't believe the religion of christianiy to be any more the only way than any other religion. Until christianity accepts its infallibility it has no authority to say they are right over anyone else. If you think you have the authority to tell someone else they are not saved or are not in the right religion I'd be asking myself some personal questions.

I'm a little late jumping into this thread and I really don't have time to look over the last 7 pages, so please extend some grace my way if what I'm about to say has already been said.

Why is the Trinity a "stumbling block"? Is it because it's difficult to understand? If that's the case, then that's no reason to dismiss it. Man may have coined the word "Trinity", but the concept was clearly God's that he revealed to us through Scripture. The Father is fully & eternally God, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-eternal and co-equal w/ the Father. They are 3 persons (who) and one being (what). The best example I've heard from nature is something called the triple point of water. This is the idea that water in a tube, given the right pressure & heat, can simultaneously be in all 3 states (liquid, gas, solid), yet it's all still the element H2O. The H20 properties do not change or diminish whatsover regardless of what state it's in. Now, let me clarify, I'm not saying that it goes from solid, to liquid, to gas (that example would represent modalism, which is heresy), but that all 3 states are simultaneously co-existing, yet are one element.

Furthermore, Scripture does teach that one must believe in Jesus for who he is. One can't say that Jesus was fully God and believe that it's the same Jesus as someone who says he's a "lesser form" of God. That's like calling a rock and a car the same thing. Jesus himself states in John 8:24, "I told you tat you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins. The "I AM" statement is a direct reference to Exodus 3:14, and the Jewish audience recognized it. Jesus is essentially saying that "unless you believe that I AM (YHWH), you will die in your sins".

John 1:1-18 & Colossians 1:15-23 further attest to Jesus' full deity. We also see in Acts 5:1-5 and Hebrews 3:7-11 attesting to the Holy Spirit being equal w/ the Father. Yet they are each individual PERSONS (Jesus' baptism clearly shows all 3 Persons of the Godhead). So, we're left to conclude that there are 3 Gods (Deut. 6:4 and many other passages clearly refute this idea) or that God is ONE BEING made up of THREE PERSONS.

Here we get to why I don't believe the religion of christianiy to be any more the only way than any other religion.

The some people behave and what the Bible actually teaches are not always in harmony. The Bible says that belief in Jesus is the ONLY way and the ONLY truth (John 14:6). It makes no room for other religions to also be correct. Truth is not arrogant, it's truth. 2+2=4...that's truth. I'm not being arrogant if you disagree, it's just truth and disagreeing with it doesn't change it's veracity.

 

[toddm]

On a side note that kinda goes along w/ the overall gist of this (and many other) threads:

IT MATTERS WHAT YOU BELIEVE ABOUT JESUS!! If you believe in a Jesus other than what the Bible says about Him, then you believe in a FALSE JESUS. If you believe in a Jesus that loves everybody and isn't going to judge people, then you believe in a FALSE JESUS. If you believe in a Jesus that wants to make you rich, then you believe in a FALSE JESUS. If you believe that Jesus was just a godly man, but not God, then you believe in a FALSE JESUS. And a false Jesus can't save you because he doesn't exist!! Putting your faith in a false Jesus is just as futile as putting your faith in a golden calf.

That may come off as harsh, but I'm only saying it out of truth and love because it matters and it's important!! This isn't an issue like "end times' where there's room for disagreement. If you don't have the real Jesus, then you don't have salvation!! This is a matter of heaven and hell! So, if I come off as contentious, it's because I am and Scriptures tell us to contend for the faith and truth!

 

[Free]

But it saddens me to see the judgmental responses of some who claim that salvation can only come if it is based on an academic assent of Jesus being God. You speak of having faith in Jesus and I believe that your sincerity is such that the person of Christ will be revealed to you as you ask and and seek for the truth.

What is sad is that some let the post-modern belief system of the world inform their thinking, in particular their views of doctrine and Scripture. Truth becomes relative and it doesn't really matter what you believe as long as you are sincere. But that is anti-biblical. Every NT author and Jesus himself make it clear that what one believes is of central importance to salvation and right living.

So what are left with are people who believe that Jesus isn't God and people who believe Jesus is God. Surely both cannot be saved since those are contradictory views of Jesus.

I also see the word of God as living. That is, not confined to the pages of a book. This 'word' dwells within me - and many others of course - and it is brought about, solely, by God grace. Man cannot earn the grace of God because he bestows it on those he wills.

No one is denying that the word of God is living especially since said book states as much. I'm sure you would agree that just because it is living doesn't mean that one can believe something other than what it says.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (ESV)

The important point here is that verses 10-13 further explain what was said in verse 9. Verse 13 is taken from Joel 2:32a, "And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." Here, calling on "the name of the LORD," or "YHWH," is equated with confessing that "Jesus is Lord."

 

[mutzrein]

I believe what scripture says as has already been quoted, " . . . for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

It says that all things come FROM God and FOR him we live ... AND all things come THROUGH Christ and THROUGH Him we live.

You see, there is a distinction which many fail to acknowledge. The Father (God) is the author and we live for Him. Christ is not the author. He is NOT God but the one THROUGH whom God has given all things to man. We live FOR God but live THROUGH Christ.

 

[toddm]

I believe what scripture says as has already been quoted, " . . . for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

It says that all things come FROM God and FOR him we live ... AND all things come THROUGH Christ and THROUGH Him we live.

You see, there is a distinction which many fail to acknowledge. The Father (God) is the author and we live for Him. Christ is not the author. He is NOT God but the one THROUGH whom God has given all things to man. We live FOR God but live THROUGH Christ.

Sorry, but that's incorrect.

Colossians 1:16 says that all things were made by/in Christ, through him, and for him. He is the primary, instrumental, and final cause for all things made. Col. 1:17 goes on to say that Christ is also the sustainer of all things.

The same is said about the Father in Romans 11:36 (I think that's the verse...last one in the chapter). It says of the Father in Rom. 11 that all things are made through him too.

So, we see in Colossians 1 & Romans 11 that all things are made in/by, through, and for the Father AND the Son. If you choose not to accept Jesus as the Almighty Creator, then you have a problem w/ these passages.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I thought that I would mention that the Gnostic Christians were the ones who proposed the same substance theory. They were/are Trinitarian. Does anyone know if they were the ones to write the creeds?

 

[Free]

I believe what scripture says as has already been quoted, " . . . for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

.
Well, using that logic--if you want to use that verse to show that Jesus cannot be God--it follows that God, the Father, is not Lord. But clearly that is not the case.

It says that all things come FROM God and FOR him we live ... AND all things come THROUGH Christ and THROUGH Him we live.

You see, there is a distinction which many fail to acknowledge. The Father (God) is the author and we live for Him. Christ is not the author. He is NOT God but the one THROUGH whom God has given all things to man. We live FOR God but live THROUGH Christ.

No one has failed to make that distinction, certainly no trinitarian in this discussion. On the contrary, the main point that is continually avoided is that which toddm and I, among others, have pointed out with scripture from John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

This is why I have always maintained, and continue to maintain, that the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that Scripture reveals. Your position must avoid or change what those two passages clearly state while the trinitarian position takes them into account along with 1 Cor 8:6.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and all things have subsisted in Him.

These passages clearly show the past eternal existence of Jesus with the Father. Jesus is God in the fullest sense; just as the Father is God, so is the Son.

 

[Free]

I thought that I would mention that the Gnostic Christians were the ones who proposed the same substance theory. They were/are Trinitarian. Does anyone know if they were the ones to write the creeds?

While the Gnostics ("Gnostic Christian" is an oxymoron) were the first to use the word homoousios, they had nothing to do with the the writing nor the content of the Creeds. The term was adopted by trinitarians simply for its explanatory power of the relationship of the Son to the Father.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I thought that I would mention that the Gnostic Christians were the ones who proposed the same substance theory. They were/are Trinitarian. Does anyone know if they were the ones to write the creeds?

While the Gnostics ("Gnostic Christian" is an oxymoron) were the first to use the word homoousios, they had nothing to do with the the writing nor the content of the Creeds. The term was adopted by trinitarians simply for its explanatory power of the relationship of the Son to the Father.

I just read some history that it was the Gnostic Christians who introduced the same substance theory. Perhaps a check on historical figures will show a link to Catholicism. So who were the Gnostic Christians? We know that they were not the Judaizing Christians.

 

[Free]

I thought that I would mention that the Gnostic Christians were the ones who proposed the same substance theory. They were/are Trinitarian. Does anyone know if they were the ones to write the creeds?

While the Gnostics ("Gnostic Christian" is an oxymoron) were the first to use the word homoousios, they had nothing to do with the the writing nor the content of the Creeds. The term was adopted by trinitarians simply for its explanatory power of the relationship of the Son to the Father.

I just read some history that it was the Gnostic Christians who introduced the same substance theory. Perhaps a check on historical figures will show a link to Catholicism. So who were the Gnostic Christians? We know that they were not the Judaizing Christians.

Yes, the word homoousios doesn't appear anywhere until Gnostic theologians used it. Origen then used it in his writings. Gnosticism was a heretical sect and not Christian.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Yes, the word homoousios doesn't appear anywhere until Gnostic theologians used it. Origen then used it in his writings. Gnosticism was a heretical sect and not Christian.

There were different Gnostic sects, one sect was Christian. That is were some of the Gnostic Christian writings come from. During the first four centuries there were two main branches of Christianity, where one was the Judaizing, and the other was the Gnostics.

 

[Free]

No. Gnosticism isn't Christian and there were not two main branches of Christianity. There was Christianity and then there were the rest. I'm not sure what you mean by "Judaizing" since a "Judaizer" was/is one who thinks that Christians need to follow the Law of Moses. Such persons were in error as Acts 15 points out.

Gnosticism has never been Christian. Some of their error is dealt with in the NT and the early church fathers also strongly opposed them.

 

[mutzrein]

I believe what scripture says as has already been quoted, " . . . for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

It says that all things come FROM God and FOR him we live ... AND all things come THROUGH Christ and THROUGH Him we live.

You see, there is a distinction which many fail to acknowledge. The Father (God) is the author and we live for Him. Christ is not the author. He is NOT God but the one THROUGH whom God has given all things to man. We live FOR God but live THROUGH Christ.

Sorry, but that's incorrect.

Colossians 1:16 says that all things were made by/in Christ, through him, and for him. He is the primary, instrumental, and final cause for all things made. Col. 1:17 goes on to say that Christ is also the sustainer of all things.

The same is said about the Father in Romans 11:36 (I think that's the verse...last one in the chapter). It says of the Father in Rom. 11 that all things are made through him too.

So, we see in Colossians 1 & Romans 11 that all things are made in/by, through, and for the Father AND the Son. If you choose not to accept Jesus as the Almighty Creator, then you have a problem w/ these passages.

That's OK Todd. My understanding of the relationship of God with His Word is sufficient for me and I don't have any problem with the verses you quote. In fact they fit together rather beautifully with what the Lord has allowed me to see.

 

[mutzrein]

I believe what scripture says as has already been quoted, " . . . for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

.
Well, using that logic--if you want to use that verse to show that Jesus cannot be God--it follows that God, the Father, is not Lord. But clearly that is not the case.

It says that all things come FROM God and FOR him we live ... AND all things come THROUGH Christ and THROUGH Him we live.

You see, there is a distinction which many fail to acknowledge. The Father (God) is the author and we live for Him. Christ is not the author. He is NOT God but the one THROUGH whom God has given all things to man. We live FOR God but live THROUGH Christ.

No one has failed to make that distinction, certainly no trinitarian in this discussion. On the contrary, the main point that is continually avoided is that which toddm and I, among others, have pointed out with scripture from John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

This is why I have always maintained, and continue to maintain, that the doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that Scripture reveals. Your position must avoid or change what those two passages clearly state while the trinitarian position takes them into account along with 1 Cor 8:6.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and all things have subsisted in Him.

These passages clearly show the past eternal existence of Jesus with the Father. Jesus is God in the fullest sense; just as the Father is God, so is the Son.

Free, obviously I'm not a traditional trinitarian, but I have never denied the eternal existence of Jesus with the Father.

And there is no limit to the title of 'Lord'. God is the Lord, God and Jesus is the Lord, Jesus Christ.

As far as the scriptures you have referred to is concerned, as I have said to Todd, my understanding of the relationship of God with His Word is sufficient for me and I don't have any problem with the verses you quote.

 

[JudaicChristian]

No. Gnosticism isn't Christian and there were not two main branches of Christianity. There was Christianity and then there were the rest. I'm not sure what you mean by "Judaizing" since a "Judaizer" was/is one who thinks that Christians need to follow the Law of Moses. Such persons were in error as Acts 15 points out.

Gnosticism has never been Christian. Some of their error is dealt with in the NT and the early church fathers also strongly opposed them.

The Judaizing Christians believed in keeping the commandments of Yahwah, the Saturday Sabbath, and they did not believe in the authority of the Pope, or Trinitarianism. The Gnostic Christians called Arian a Gnostic who was a Judaizing Christian. I believe what they meant by that is that he is a person who thinks he knows. Regards to Acts 15: After the ruling circumcision was no longer a issue among Christians. This is what Judaizing Christians believed: John 10:33. "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

 

[seekandlisten]

In regards to the trinity, i was merely hoping to provoke one's thinking on how one interprets the plan of salvation and the NT. It's not a matter of a different Jesus or God, I read the same bible you do, but i believe when one approaches the bible believing in the trinity it can change their perspective and how they interpret the bible. I'll ask this question, if one must believe Jesus is actually God Himself, how do you interpret Jesus being the firstborn of the sons of God and firstborn of the dead and what it means??

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten

I appreciate the way in which you post - without the arrogance that some display. But it saddens me to see the judgmental responses of some who claim that salvation can only come if it is based on an academic assent of Jesus being God. You speak of having faith in Jesus and I believe that your sincerity is such that the person of Christ will be revealed to you as you ask and and seek for the truth.

I also see the word of God as living. That is, not confined to the pages of a book. This 'word' dwells within me - and many others of course - and it is brought about, solely, by God grace. Man cannot earn the grace of God because he bestows it on those he wills.

You speak of, and have quoted scripture referring to, following Christ's example.
I have two questions regarding this:
Firstly, how would you go about doing that?
Secondly, why do you think you should?

Blessings

In answer to your question, one must follow Christ's example first and foremost with a humble heart seeking God's guidance through the Holy Spirit. One must put forth what it means to be a servant to all and humble themselves in displaying God's unconditional love. Why should I do this? I am merely putting my faith in God that through Jesus and God's grace and mercy, I might be able to receive the gift of eternal life when God judges my heart because I have fallen short.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Has anyone studied about Gnostic Christians and what they believe?

 

[seekandlisten]

Has anyone studied about Gnostic Christians and what they believe?

What kind of christian you are is not relevant to why one must believe in the trinity to be saved. I don't believe Jesus was God here on earth, why must I believe that Jesus was God to be saved? the trinity is not in the bible.