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Christian Beliefs

I was reading Hebrews as a lot of you, on this point we've been discussing , have referenced it. Like I said earlier I'm not a big fan of verse picking because of what it can lead to and it usually doesn't solve anything. Yet I don't discourage from adding a passage to assert a point. Anyways, back to Hebrews. I can't say as I took anything as to one side or the other on the point of Jesus equal to God but Hebrews 4:12-13 made me stop and ponder on them as to what this really means. I don't think it really matters what you believe to understand what these 2 verses put forward.

Now what this related to me in relevance to our conversation we are having here is I believe the main point as to what level of divinity you should raise Jesus to lies in how you interpret Scripture. I also was thinking about what Ben put forth earlier in his post, the quote that he highlighted in red. To me one must realize the bible as a whole what it means and then everything in it when broken down is understood. Now I realize I seem to hold the bible not quite as highly as most of you seem to agree as it being infallible, but my belief that Jesus is not equal to God comes from the same bible you are reading, i'm assuming anyways(NIV or KJV are the ones I read). This belief does not stem from some teaching outside of the bible. My understanding of the bible as what it means as a whole helps me to see what it is saying as I read different passages throughout. I see God in a lot of things that aren't the bible but as the bible states everything comes from God.

Well I was thinking about what I've read here today and these 2 verses in Hebrews I came to a logical way of how to relate it. I'm going to put forth this method in my next post to whoever is interested.
 
Hi seekandlisten,

It's about 1AM for me here and I need to get some sleep, so I will try to get to your posts later. As for your reference to "verse picking", obviously cherry picking is not acceptable but most of the first chapter in Hebrews in full context quite clearly shows Jesus as having a hand in creation in the beginning. It would be more of a cherry picking effort to try to change its meaning to not say that through the Son of God the "worlds were created" (vs. 2). But I will try to address your specific concerns later.

G'night & God Bless,

~Josh
 
Hi seekandlisten

I haven't read the whole thread but I note at one point that you say you believe Jesus to be just a man. Do you believe that God sent this man to die for the sin of the world?

... and RND

do you beleive that a person MUST believe that Jesus is God in order to be born again?

Thanks
 
Continuing where I left off in my last post.

The belief as to whether Jesus is God or not does not affect the end result so your belief on this point is irrelevant. You do however have to believe that there is a one true God, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and if we believe in Him we will be saved. You also have to at least believe the bible to contain Truth. I have a firm belief that the Word of God is living and active like Hebrews 4:12 states. If you do not share this belief I doubt you will get much from this exercise.

What I want is for you to write down what you think that you portray to others, unbelievers and believers alike, based on the beliefs you hold confirmed in the Scripture. Basically what you think a christian should be, keep in mind this is not the point, but on a personal level in what you hope other see in you. I will not ask you to post this list, in fact I ask that you please don't. I ask that once you believe you have written down what you think others see in your daily walk, you read it over at least 5 times. I will say you don't really have physically do this but if you choose to just think it out let the full realization of what this says as to the Living Word of God.

When you have fully thought this part through up to this point, disregard the whole list as this isn't what God sees. His Word is alive and will pierce you very most inner thought, doubt, deep dark secret. Every single thing about you is laid out before God in plain sight. The Living Word will convict you, it doesn't have to be bound in a book. God's Word is alive and active looking at our very heart. This is the point where you get to an answer that only you can answer. At this point where do you find this Truth? In the bible. God sees the hearts of everyone and what their heart is seeking He knows and if we are like David and in fact a man after God's heart, we are one of His Children. I believe the bible to be a guide, useful for teaching, but to get to that point Gods Living Word needs to convict you. So does this make the bible obselete? I don't think so, but what level you hold it at I believe can sometimes try to limit God's Living Word. Does this make any sense?? To be honest I just got to a point where I don't even know where I was going with this so take it as you will merely thoughts of mine on why my interpretation of the bible may differ sometimes from those who hold the bible to be infallible.

Hope this was usefull to someone.
 
Something else that was on my mind earlier today was the story of Job when he was tested by Satan. For those of you that hold the bible to be infallible, tell me what you think the purpose of this story is? How do you interpret it? I don't want the whole story but broken down to the 'moral of the story' so to speak. Why does God allow Job to be tested?

Again these questions and points I'm putting forth are simply to help you understand how I interpret the bible so to speak. Just so you don't think I'm totally out to lunch here. I'm quite aware of some of the crazy logics out there. Anyways I'm going to bed.

God bless,
 
seekandlisten said:
Something else that was on my mind earlier today was the story of Lot when he was tested by Satan. For those of you that hold the bible to be infallible tell me what the purpose of this story is? How do you interpret it? I don't want the whole story but broken down to the 'moral of the story' so to speak. Why does God allow Lot to be tested?

Again these questions and points I'm putting forth are simply to help you understand how I interpret the bible so to speak. Just so you don't think I'm totally out to lunch here. I'm quite aware of some of the crazy logics out there. Anyways I'm going to bed.

God bless,
Click to expand...

What is the testing of Lot that you refer to? Did you mean Job?
 
mutzrein said:
Hi seekandlisten

I haven't read the whole thread but I note at one point that you say you believe Jesus to be just a man. Do you believe that God sent this man to die for the sin of the world?

... and RND

do you beleive that a person MUST believe that Jesus is God in order to be born again?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I believe Jesus died for the sins of the world and this was God's plan and a fulfillment of His promise in the OT if that's what you are getting at. Can I ask you, in relevance to what you believe the relation between God and man is, do you think God needs to change his plan so to speak because we reject Him?? Or has everything that has occured through time and is occuring has always been God's plan??
 
Ben,
Well I am still thinking over your earlier post as to what you are putting forth, I have to ask you a question. I get the impression that you feel somehow i mean to attack the belief that Jesus is God? I hope this isn't the impression I'm putting forth here. Could you please clarify as to why you used the word attack in your previous post. Thanks
 
It is a term used in logical argument. I meant nothing more. You wish to support the view that Jesus is not God, and to me that means the same thing. The word carries a cultural baggage. I just wanted you to feel free to disagree with me on any point.

also, my bad for putting that in red, it may have been confusing. That that I put in red is my view. I in no way wanna tell you what you think, you can tell me that just fine yourself.
 
seekandlisten said:
mutzrein said:
Hi seekandlisten

I haven't read the whole thread but I note at one point that you say you believe Jesus to be just a man. Do you believe that God sent this man to die for the sin of the world?

... and RND

do you beleive that a person MUST believe that Jesus is God in order to be born again?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I believe Jesus died for the sins of the world and this was God's plan and a fulfillment of His promise in the OT if that's what you are getting at. Can I ask you, in relevance to what you believe the relation between God and man is, do you think God needs to change his plan so to speak because we reject Him?? Or has everything that has occured through time and is occuring has always been God's plan??
Click to expand...

Thanks seekandlisten

I believe that God has always had a plan of salvation for mankind. Part of this plan is to draw those whom He chooses to Himself and these are born of His Spirit. I believe it a fallacy to suggest, as some do, that God has a plan for everyone. I see a distinction between those who are perishing because they are not part of God's eternal plan ... and those who are 'being' saved since He chooses to make them his children by giving life to them. Scripture tells us that God is the God of the living - not the dead.

A return question for you, if I may. If you are suggesting that Jesus is just a man, is it possible for a mere man to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world?

Blessings
 
Ben Joiner said:
It is a term used in logical argument. I meant nothing more. You wish to support the view that Jesus is not God, and to me that means the same thing. The word carries a cultural baggage. I just wanted you to feel free to disagree with me on any point.

also, my bad for putting that in red, it may have been confusing. That that I put in red is my view. I in no way wanna tell you what you think, you can tell me that just fine yourself.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying that for me. In regards to your red quote, I was merely putting forth that it has caused me to think about how some people approach the bible, not an attack, a compliment if you will. You put out the seed, essentially, I process it and then decide to keep it, discard it, or hold onto it for a little while and let it set in, this is essentially how one gains knowledge and logic, both secular and spiritual, is it not?
 
seekandlisten said:
Ben Joiner said:
It is a term used in logical argument. I meant nothing more. You wish to support the view that Jesus is not God, and to me that means the same thing. The word carries a cultural baggage. I just wanted you to feel free to disagree with me on any point.

also, my bad for putting that in red, it may have been confusing. That that I put in red is my view. I in no way wanna tell you what you think, you can tell me that just fine yourself.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying that for me. In regards to your red quote, I was merely putting forth that it has caused me to think about how some people approach the bible, not an attack, a compliment if you will. You put out the seed, essentially, I process it and then decide to keep it, discard it, or hold onto it for a little while and let it set in, this is essentially how one gains knowledge and logic, both secular and spiritual, is it not?
Click to expand...

I agree with your comment here and think of this scripture:
:)
Isiaah 55:11 "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth: It shall not return to me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. [NKJ Bible].
 
mutzrein said:
Thanks seekandlisten

I believe that God has always had a plan of salvation for mankind. Part of this plan is to draw those whom He chooses to Himself and these are born of His Spirit. I believe it a fallacy to suggest, as some do, that God has a plan for everyone. I see a distinction between those who are perishing because they are not part of God's eternal plan ... and those who are 'being' saved since He chooses to make them his children by giving life to them. Scripture tells us that God is the God of the living - not the dead.

A return question for you, if I may. If you are suggesting that Jesus is just a man, is it possible for a mere man to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world?

Blessings
Click to expand...

Hmmm...I agree with you for the most part. I do hesitate with the plan for everybody. Well I believe their to be God's Plan of universal, meaning for everybody if willing, salvation, i would hesitate to limit God work through people. I cant's say that if He sees a willing heart He won't have a specific plan for that person in regard to His Ultimate Plan. Agree??

As to your question the answer is yes. If Jesus fulfilled the Plan of Salvation as God put forth, is it not his example we are to follow if we are to be a part of his saints in the 1000 year reign?? If you say it is impossible for someone to obey Jesus command and follow God then aren't you setting yourself up for failure before you start?
 
seekandlisten said:
mutzrein said:
Thanks seekandlisten

I believe that God has always had a plan of salvation for mankind. Part of this plan is to draw those whom He chooses to Himself and these are born of His Spirit. I believe it a fallacy to suggest, as some do, that God has a plan for everyone. I see a distinction between those who are perishing because they are not part of God's eternal plan ... and those who are 'being' saved since He chooses to make them his children by giving life to them. Scripture tells us that God is the God of the living - not the dead.

A return question for you, if I may. If you are suggesting that Jesus is just a man, is it possible for a mere man to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world?

Blessings
Click to expand...

Hmmm...I agree with you for the most part. I do hesitate with the plan for everybody. Well I believe their to be God's Plan of universal, meaning for everybody if willing, salvation, i would hesitate to limit God work through people. I cant's say that if He sees a willing heart He won't have a specific plan for that person in regard to His Ultimate Plan. Agree??

As to your question the answer is yes. If Jesus fulfilled the Plan of Salvation as God put forth, is it not his example we are to follow if we are to be a part of his saints in the 1000 year reign?? If you say it is impossible for someone to obey Jesus command and follow God then aren't you setting yourself up for failure before you start?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I undersatnd you correctly. I'm not saying that God has a plan for everyone and I don't limit God to just working through people. His plan is His plan irrespective of what we perceive to be a human response to it. How can one who is dead have a willing heart?

I don't believe anyone can follow Christ's example without first becoming co-heirs with him (Christ). Jesus came so that man might have LIFE. He didn't come in order that we should follow his example. Jesus was born of the Spirit of God. Man must also be born of the Spirit of God to be made alive. The question you need to answer is, how are we made alive . . . in order that we may be obedient to Christ and His God?
 
mutzrein said:
I'm not sure if I undersatnd you correctly. I'm not saying that God has a plan for everyone and I don't limit God to just working through people. His plan is His plan irrespective of what we perceive to be a human response to it. How can one who is dead have a willing heart?

I don't believe anyone can follow Christ's example without first becoming co-heirs with him (Christ). Jesus came so that man might have LIFE. He didn't come in order that we should follow his example. Jesus was born of the Spirit of God. Man must also be born of the Spirit of God to be made alive. The question you need to answer is, how are we made alive . . . in order that we may be obedient to Christ and His God?
Click to expand...

I think I misunderstood you there. I reread your previous post I commented on and see now that you disagree with everybody being saved as put forth by universalists. Is that what your are talking about? While i agree with universalism to an extent I don't believe everybody is saved in the end.
 
seekandlisten said:
mutzrein said:
I'm not sure if I undersatnd you correctly. I'm not saying that God has a plan for everyone and I don't limit God to just working through people. His plan is His plan irrespective of what we perceive to be a human response to it. How can one who is dead have a willing heart?

I don't believe anyone can follow Christ's example without first becoming co-heirs with him (Christ). Jesus came so that man might have LIFE. He didn't come in order that we should follow his example. Jesus was born of the Spirit of God. Man must also be born of the Spirit of God to be made alive. The question you need to answer is, how are we made alive . . . in order that we may be obedient to Christ and His God?
Click to expand...

I think I misunderstood you there. I reread your previous post I commented on and see now that you disagree with everybody being saved as put forth by universalists. Is that what your are talking about? While i agree with universalism to an extent I don't believe everybody is saved in the end.
Click to expand...

I'm definitely NOT a universalist since I believe that God chooses to give (eternal) life to some and not others.

I am interested in finding out a little more about your thoughts on who Jesus is though.
 
mutzrein said:
I believe that God has always had a plan of salvation for mankind. Part of this plan is to draw those whom He chooses to Himself and these are born of His Spirit. I believe it a fallacy to suggest, as some do, that God has a plan for everyone. I see a distinction between those who are perishing because they are not part of God's eternal plan ... and those who are 'being' saved since He chooses to make them his children by giving life to them. Scripture tells us that God is the God of the living - not the dead.

A return question for you, if I may. If you are suggesting that Jesus is just a man, is it possible for a mere man to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world?

Blessings
Click to expand...

My answer to your question is yes. Can I ask how you answer that question?
 
seekandlisten said:
mutzrein said:
I believe that God has always had a plan of salvation for mankind. Part of this plan is to draw those whom He chooses to Himself and these are born of His Spirit. I believe it a fallacy to suggest, as some do, that God has a plan for everyone. I see a distinction between those who are perishing because they are not part of God's eternal plan ... and those who are 'being' saved since He chooses to make them his children by giving life to them. Scripture tells us that God is the God of the living - not the dead.

A return question for you, if I may. If you are suggesting that Jesus is just a man, is it possible for a mere man to be the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world?

Blessings
Click to expand...

My answer to your question is yes. Can I ask how you answer that question?
Click to expand...

I cannot answer the question as you have as I do not hold to the premise that Jesus is (or was) a mere man.

This is what I believe: Jesus co-existed WITH God. He was the Word OF God as opposed to being God himself. Being the Word OF God, he was if you like the agent of God, the one through whom God created all things.

Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish.
 
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