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I'll try and explain my reasoning and let me know what you think. When you believe God's Word to be the bible rather than be in the bible so to speak you are faced with the dilemma of why in some parts of the bible Jesus is referred to as God and other parts he's referred to God's Son. You also have to consider when Jesus was referred to as the Firstborn of the Sons of God. Now put the trinity doctrine in the way and you come away with simply Jesus is God. Even to go as far as say Jesus created the world. Did you not just make the God of the old testament a man and this man, Jesus, God of the old testament??

How does that change one's view of who God is and what he is about. Does anyone hold the fear that God can literally speak you out of existence??

Well I do believe Jesus to be a lot of things and God gave him power to do a lot of things he was still a man like you and me. How much more suffering did Jesus have to go through when you see him as man rather than God? I will not deny to what divinity Jesus is, I just do not agree with making him God. I believe that doctrine blinds christians to the true meaning of free will and God's Plan as laid out in the bible.
 
seekandlisten said:
I'll try and explain my reasoning and let me know what you think. When you believe God's Word to be the bible rather than be in the bible so to speak you are faced with the dilemma of why in some parts of the bible Jesus is referred to as God and other parts he's referred to God's Son. You also have to consider when Jesus was referred to as the Firstborn of the Sons of God. Now put the trinity doctrine in the way and you come away with simply Jesus is God. Even to go as far as say Jesus created the world. Did you not just make the God of the old testament a man and this man, Jesus, God of the old testament??

How does that change one's view of who God is and what he is about. Does anyone hold the fear that God can literally speak you out of existence??

Well I do believe Jesus to be a lot of things and God gave him power to do a lot of things he was still a man like you and me. How much more suffering did Jesus have to go through when you see him as man rather than God? I will not deny to what divinity Jesus is, I just do not agree with making him God. I believe that doctrine blinds christians to the true meaning of free will and God's Plan as laid out in the bible.


I think people don't want to view Jesus as a man, and instead view him as God to let themselves off the hook for their behavior. Meaning I know Jesus stood up for what is right even in the face of certain death and obvious torment, but he was God and perfect, I certainly don't have to live like that I am just a man. It is a cop out and rationalization.
 
seekandlisten said:
I'll try and explain my reasoning and let me know what you think. When you believe God's Word to be the bible rather than be in the bible so to speak you are faced with the dilemma of why in some parts of the bible Jesus is referred to as God and other parts he's referred to God's Son. You also have to consider when Jesus was referred to as the Firstborn of the Sons of God. Now put the trinity doctrine in the way and you come away with simply Jesus is God. Even to go as far as say Jesus created the world. Did you not just make the God of the old testament a man and this man, Jesus, God of the old testament??

How does that change one's view of who God is and what he is about. Does anyone hold the fear that God can literally speak you out of existence??

Well I do believe Jesus to be a lot of things and God gave him power to do a lot of things he was still a man like you and me. How much more suffering did Jesus have to go through when you see him as man rather than God? I will not deny to what divinity Jesus is, I just do not agree with making him God. I believe that doctrine blinds christians to the true meaning of free will and God's Plan as laid out in the bible.

Thanks for your response seekandlisten. Actually I agree with some of your reasoning. For a number of years I held to the belief that Jesus was God and at one point was condemning of those who disagreed. Now I have to say that the Lord dealt with me over a period and during this time He developed in me something which began as a seed shortly after coming to know him - a passion for truth.

I'm interested in what you say about parts of the bible referring to Jesus as the son of God and others referring to him AS God. Should we discard the parts of the bible that we cannot reconcile with other parts that we agree with - or could it be that the interpretation is wrong? The part where it speaks about Jesus being the firstborn could be a case in point. Do you have a particular understanding of what that is supposed to mean?

I've also got a different (to most) perspective on the meaning of free will if you would like to discuss that at some time.

Blessings
 
seekandlisten said:
How does that change one's view of who God is and what he is about.

the basic view is this one

1 jn 5 said:
1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
jn 12 said:
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.

the idea is that rejection of Christ is rejection of God. Paul puts it this way:

2 cor 4 said:
6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

the idea here is that of highest ideals. the greatest Roman ideal was glory, the Greeks, truth, the Hebrews light. Paul says here that these intangible ideals have a face and that face is that of Christ. A person's position of Jesus is everything. Look at it conversely, if Jesus is God, then does it matter whether we recognize that? To show no honor to that is to show no honor to His worship. This is not Jesus' shoe size or how he combs his hair. My point is that this question of whether or not Jesus is God is enormously significant.

Now whether or not Jesus is actually God is another question, but whether or not the question is important or not is what I am attempting to address here.
 
Ben,
I'm interested in your line of thinking here. What you are presenting is essentially the same point I'm making but from different sides of the spectrum. The point is exactly that how big of a deal is it whether or not Jesus is God. The problem I see is the doctrine put forth by man to explain the contradictions found in the bible doesn't do it any clearer so all it has done is instilled in people's beliefs that Jesus merely is God. While this detail isn't of that much significance as soon as you put it forth in doctrine sets an authority where when in doubt remember Jesus is God. A whole new meaning comes to the bible when you believe that God is God and Jesus is merely man. Once you have this understanding you can then look as to whether or not Jesus is God and realize the relevance of if this is really not that important. I don't deny Christ. I don't even deny the fact that Jesus is God. Simply put, I don't know if Jesus is God and I'm not going to state it as fact when I can't even understand it. The problem to me lies in the doctrine and the belief that stems from this doctrine and the blindess is causes among christians to God's Truth. Do you understand my position? Its not the significance of understanding the mystery, it's when the doctrine is put in place that gives the assumption that the mystery was solved and simply put Jesus as God. Does this make any sense?

I should have some time later tonight to look at your previous post and comment as well, sorry it's taken so long.
 
seekandlisten said:
Once you have this understanding you can then look as to whether or not Jesus is God and realize the relevance of if this is really not that important.
Actually, whether or not Jesus is God is everything. There are serious implications if he is not.
 
Free said:
seekandlisten said:
Once you have this understanding you can then look as to whether or not Jesus is God and realize the relevance of if this is really not that important.
Actually, whether or not Jesus is God is everything. There are serious implications if he is not.

Sorry, I didn't mean that it is not important whether Jesus is God. I was going more along the lines of understanding how Jesus is God? Again I am not opposed to the idea of Jesus as God but when we miss the understanding of how he got there we cannot simply state Jesus is God. A point I brought up earlier was the belief that Jesus created the world. Well obviously is Jesus is God well then Jesus created the world is the thinking. But when that statement is put forth just further goes to promote the blindness caused by the doctrine in understanding the Truth. Does this make more sense??
 
seekandlisten said:
Sorry, I didn't mean that it is not important whether Jesus is God. I was going more along the lines of understanding how Jesus is God? Again I am not opposed to the idea of Jesus as God but when we miss the understanding of how he got there we cannot simply state Jesus is God. A point I brought up earlier was the belief that Jesus created the world. Well obviously is Jesus is God well then Jesus created the world is the thinking. But when that statement is put forth just further goes to promote the blindness caused by the doctrine in understanding the Truth. Does this make more sense??
I think I see what you are saying but I'm not quite sure. I believe that Jesus is God in the fullest sense; everything that attribute to the Christian idea of God. In support of this are the passages that speak of Jesus being involved with Creation. It's not: Jesus is God, therefore Jesus created the world. It's: Jesus created the world, therefore he is God.
 
seekandlisten

When you get a chance to get to my post I'd appreciate a response to the points I've raised, however I'd like to make a couple more points.

Some say that it is necessary to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved (born again), however scripture does not say this.

What is necessary is (as Ben pointed out) is to know that Jesus is the Christ. One who is born again will 'know' this. It is also necessary to 'know' that Jesus came in the flesh. Now this does not make reference to a 'mere' man - but one who has come FROM God. That is, Jesus is the WORD (of God) made flesh.

The reason that a mere man could not suffice as the life-giving sacrifice for fallen man is that the sacrifice (the lamb of God) had to be perfect. Any man born of the seed of man is imperfect, but Christ was not born of the seed of man, but of the Spirit, born of a virgin, untainted by man.
 
Remember, I only reject the doctrine of the trinity, not what the bible says about Jesus and his divinity. The doctrine is man made and has only been a stumbling block in my opinion. This also ties in with my beliefs on christianity as a religion which I'll leave in my other thread.
 
mutzrein said:
Some say that it is necessary to believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved (born again), however scripture does not say this.
I would argue that it does.

mutzrein said:
It is also necessary to 'know' that Jesus came in the flesh. Now this does not make reference to a 'mere' man - but one who has come FROM God.
A good point.

mutzrein said:
The reason that a mere man could not suffice as the life-giving sacrifice for fallen man is that the sacrifice (the lamb of God) had to be perfect. Any man born of the seed of man is imperfect, but Christ was not born of the seed of man, but of the Spirit, born of a virgin, untainted by man.
Agreed. Even if it is argued that Jesus was a mere man that was somehow perfect, it would then follow that it is possible for any man to save himself. What follows from that is that Jesus' sacrifice could only be of benefit to himself.


seekandlisten said:
Remember, I only reject the doctrine of the trinity, not what the bible says about Jesus and his divinity. The doctrine is man made and has only been a stumbling block in my opinion. This also ties in with my beliefs on christianity as a religion which I'll leave in my other thread.
But, if you believe that the Son is God just as the Father is God, then you are into polytheism. This is precisely one of the main problems the doctrine of the Trinity avoids.
 
"But, if you believe that the Son is God just as the Father is God, then you are into polytheism. This is precisely one of the main problems the doctrine of the Trinity avoids."

So didn't you just put the doctrine of trinity in place of God? A man made doctrine decribing who God is? Now when someone doesn't understand this contradiction as put forth in the bible and turns to a doctrine to explain it still not fully understanding it, can it change their whole perspective on how they understand the bible?
 
I feel the trinity can separate the unity of the Godhead depending on how the word/doctrine of the trinity is used and worshipped.. ;)

The Godhead scriptures - Acts 17: 29, Rom. 1: 20, Col. 2: 9, KJV


While three entities comprise the Godhead, they are one in nature, purpose, and thinking. The danger is when the Godhead is split and the three become separate.. :naughty
'Gods' - Paganism!
 
Steve76 said:
I feel the trinity can separate the unity of the Godhead depending on how the word/doctrine of the trinity is used and worshipped.. ;)

The Godhead scriptures - Acts 17: 29, Rom. 1: 20, Col. 2: 9, KJV


While three entities comprise the Godhead, they are one in nature, purpose, and thinking. The danger is when the Godhead is split and the three become separate.. :naughty
'Gods' - Paganism!

One must first understand how God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit work independantly to understand how they work together. The trinity gives you the highlights and lets you skip to the end.
 
seekandlisten said:
Steve76 said:
I feel the trinity can separate the unity of the Godhead depending on how the word/doctrine of the trinity is used and worshipped.. ;)

The Godhead scriptures - Acts 17: 29, Rom. 1: 20, Col. 2: 9, KJV


While three entities comprise the Godhead, they are one in nature, purpose, and thinking. The danger is when the Godhead is split and the three become separate.. :naughty
'Gods' - Paganism!

One must first understand how God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit work independantly to understand how they work together. The trinity gives you the highlights and lets you skip to the end.

You say that you reject the doctrine of the trinity, but now you seem to be accepting it as some kind of overall study..that helps you to understand the Godhead quicker? :shrug
 
seekandlisten said:
Remember, I only reject the doctrine of the trinity, not what the bible says about Jesus and his divinity. The doctrine is man made and has only been a stumbling block in my opinion. This also ties in with my beliefs on christianity as a religion which I'll leave in my other thread.

Are you flip-flopping? At one point you said that Jesus was a mere man, now you say you don't reject his divinity. Do you accept that he came FROM God but is not God himself?

Regarding the trinity, I think there are several understandings of it. But I do believe in our heavenly Father, who is God. I believe in Jesus who is the son of God. And I believe in the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of God. But I do not believe that that each entity is God in their own right.

Blessings
 
I see we are running into a dilemma. Let's first separate something here. The Godhead, what is put forth in the Scripture. The trinity, what was put forth by man essentially a another mystery, man's interpretation, explaining another mystery, God's interpetation. My beliefs are that Jesus was a man born of Mary and Joseph. To what extent God worked through this man and to what level of divinity he holds in God's Kingdon I don't have the answers. I do believe that as Jesus was, here on earth as told in the bible, that Jesus was no more than a man like you and me. He holds a spot in God's Kingdom but I'm not about to equal him with God just because. When I try and figure it out it literally blows my mind and sounds absurd. Back to the doctrine in question, the trinity. It has done nothing but be a stumblingblock for christians. Here we get to why I don't believe the religion of christianiy to be any more the only way than any other religion. Until christianity accepts its infallibility it has no authority to say they are right over anyone else. If you think you have the authority to tell someone else they are not saved or are not in the right religion I'd be asking myself some personal questions.
 
seekandlisten said:
I see we are running into a dilemma. Let's first separate something here. The Godhead, what is put forth in the Scripture. The trinity, what was put forth by man essentially a another mystery, man's interpretation, explaining another mystery, God's interpetation. My beliefs are that Jesus was a man born of Mary and Joseph. To what extent God worked through this man and to what level of divinity he holds in God's Kingdon I don't have the answers. I do believe that as Jesus was, here on earth as told in the bible, that Jesus was no more than a man like you and me. He holds a spot in God's Kingdom but I'm not about to equal him with God just because. When I try and figure it out it literally blows my mind and sounds absurd. Back to the doctrine in question, the trinity. It has done nothing but be a stumblingblock for christians. Here we get to why I don't believe the religion of christianiy to be any more the only way than any other religion. Until christianity accepts its infallibility it has no authority to say they are right over anyone else. If you think you have the authority to tell someone else they are not saved or are not in the right religion I'd be asking myself some personal questions.

Do you not believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh? Born of God's Spirit and the virgin Mary?

From what I have read above it seems that you think not and I wonder how you have come to having faith in Christ as 'just a man'..?
God came to us as one of us, to live amongst us and die for us, so that we may have the chance of reconciling ourselves with Him. It is evident through scripture and if you are a believer of God, I fail to see how you could miss to grasp the most important part of the plan that God had in place for us since the beginning of creation!

How can you deny that? Or better put, what type of Jesus are you putting your faith into? :confused
 
seekandlisten said:
I see we are running into a dilemma. Let's first separate something here. The Godhead, what is put forth in the Scripture. The trinity, what was put forth by man essentially a another mystery, man's interpretation, explaining another mystery, God's interpetation. My beliefs are that Jesus was a man born of Mary and Joseph. To what extent God worked through this man and to what level of divinity he holds in God's Kingdon I don't have the answers. I do believe that as Jesus was, here on earth as told in the bible, that Jesus was no more than a man like you and me. He holds a spot in God's Kingdom but I'm not about to equal him with God just because. When I try and figure it out it literally blows my mind and sounds absurd. Back to the doctrine in question, the trinity. It has done nothing but be a stumblingblock for christians. Here we get to why I don't believe the religion of christianiy to be any more the only way than any other religion. Until christianity accepts its infallibility it has no authority to say they are right over anyone else. If you think you have the authority to tell someone else they are not saved or are not in the right religion I'd be asking myself some personal questions.

Actually seekandlisten, I don't have a dilemma.

I know who Jesus is. I know who God is. And I know what my relationship is with each.

Many people say they have faith in Jesus - but I have to ask, "which Jesus?"
 
I am going to take some time to read over this thread as well as the my other thread, as they kind of go together to the point I'm getting at. I want to reflect on what has been put forth and make sure I'm still pointed in the right direction. I have tried to put forth my responses in a way that provokes one to think about what is actually being presented. I will tell you that I can't give the answers, only our Father can. It is all contained in the bible though. One can't be given the Truth all at once, but one can find it with a humble heart. I don't mean direspect to anyone's beliefs or do I judge any religion as the wrong one. The Body of Christ is for everyone and no religion can keep it to themself. The Authority of this Body only comes from God Himself. I'm going to leave some Scripture references that relate to the point I'm trying to get at over the course of this thread. The first reference is merely a quote of great wisdom.

"By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest."

1 Corinthians 7:17-24 (New International Version)

"17Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts. 20Each one should remain in the situation which he was in when God called him. 21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave. 23You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24Brothers, each man, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation God called him to."

1 Corinthians 8 (New International Version)

"1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge.[a] Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.
4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (New International Version)

" 19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

1 Corinthians 10:12 (New International Version)

"12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"


1 Corinthians 10:23-11:1 (New International Version)

The Believer's Freedom

" 23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."[a]

27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake— 29the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

1 Corinthians 11
1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ."
 

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