Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[Butch5]

Hi Butch

Jesus, quoting Psalm 37 said, "the meek shall inherit theearth"

The scripture doesn’t say anything about a paradise sinless earth, let alone man never dying.

“God is the owner of the earth†and it belongs to Him and His children! Psalms 24:1

The children of God, true believers, present tense are the meek Jesus was referring to in the Matthew 5:5 Ephesians 5:5

They inherit the Spiritual Kingdom not a new car or a patch of land. It is an intimate family relationship with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Romans 8:28

God’s kingdom is now, and the world and everything in it belongs to His offspring.

So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours,whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future — all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God. 1Corinthians 3:21-23

The meek trust in the Lord; true! Zephaniah 3:12

Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Matthew5:12

Hi before time,

You've not established this "spiritual" kingdom. You've simply inferred it from you interpretation of a few passages. Where do the Scriptures teach of inheriting a spiritual kingdom. What exactly is a "spiritual" kingdom. I am getting the impression that you don't believe this "spiritual" kingdom is a physical kingdom, is that correct?

 

[Butch5]

Just like the term trinity or rapture is not used in scriptures; so it is with spiritual life. What Adam suffered in the Garden of Eden when he ate the forbidden fruit was spiritual death. I use the term spiritual dead in place of the expression “separation from Godâ€

“Adam and Eve died spiritually because they were cast out of the presence of God.†So the death I am referring to is separation, not annihilation.

Spiritual life is restoration through our Lord Jesus that gives us peace with God. This is not a worldly peace, paradise on earth, the New Testament speaks about. It is something much greater, spiritual life. In short this life is in the eyes of God. There is no complicated theology here; I believe all true Christians would agree with this effortless analogy. Do you concur!

Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, PEACE and joy in the Holy Spirit,

If this is not clear there is more to the story concerning the resurrection and the after life. Did I answer the question or said to much on the soap box. J

BTW I read some of the link you posted. Did you know Butch that Irenaeus believed according to the gospels and apostolic tradition, Jesus was in his fifties when he died?

No I don't follow you here. You have given the word Spiritual a meaning that is not in it's definition.

Yes, I am aware of what Irenaeus thought on the subject. Do modern Scholars know more about Jesus' age than a man who has a direct link to the Apostles John? Let's suppose for argument sake that he was wrong, does that mean we disregard everything he said? if so, then we need to disregard every commentary and Christian work today because none of are without error. That would mean you have to disregard your own theology also. Regardless of whether he was right or wrong about Jesus' age, it doesn't negate the fact that all of those other writers said the same thing.

Everyone knows the story of Hymenaeus and Philetus. Who had, like gangrene convinced some in the faith the resurrection had already taken place.

2 Timothy 2:17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene.Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

If the early Christians believed in a bodily resurrection of corpse out of their graves, how come some of them lost their faith?

In other words how did Hymenaeus and Philetus convince anyone if the early Christians believed in a physical resurrection? Possible proof the believers considered the resurrection was spiritual in nature.

Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't resurrect in a physical body? If so be careful theologically you are on dangerous ground. If that is what you are suggesting I'd suggest 1 Cor 15 where Paul addresses those who challenged the resurrection of the flesh.

 

[Butch5]

Hi before time,

What exactly is "spiritual" and where have you established this. The statement about it not being here or there doesn't establish that it' sspiritual. The fact that it has no boundaries means it's neither here no there.The verse you posted shows that the kingdom was on earth and not in Heaven. It was in their midst because Jesus was in their midst. I am interested in seeinghow you've established that the kingdom is not physical.

spir·it·u·al spiriCHo͞oəl

Adjective Of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

Yes I did post the kingdom is on earth, and I believe Christ is ruling now. However, it may be interesting to see first what the kingdom is not before explaining in more detail how it is ruling on earth. Nevertheless it is spiritual in nature. Many have a hard time with that because there is evil in the world.

“It is not a government as we know it, a ruling class of men ruling over territory on earth under God. Some dictionaries say it is a government purporting to be of God, and ruling through a high hierarchy of a priest.

There is a commentator named Lensky who gives us sought of a good description of the kingdom, he says, "God's kingdom must not be taken in the sense of an earthly kingdom, thinking of land and people. The kingdom of the heavens centers in the king Jesus Christ, and in the power of his grace, might and glories that go out from him. Where he is - there the kingdom is, because there he exercises his grace, and power" Ed Dunlap

Luke 17:20 And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of Godcometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, there! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.[ in your midst.]

If it was physical with observation everyone would believe.

To be continued

First of all that definition of spiritual doesn't fit the Scriptural use of the word. Spiritual does not mean non physical.

Regarding the kingdom of God, it'd be better to look at what the Scriptures say rather than Lensky.

Thirdly, we already addressed the, neither here nor there passage. If a kingdom has no physical boundaries, it will be neither here nor there. At this time God's kingdom has no physical boundaries so no one can say here it is or there it is. However, that has nothing to with what the kingdom will be when Christ returns.

 

[Butch5]

Nowhere is heaven promised to the Christian. The promise is the eternal land inheritance.

When protestants sing "Standing on the Promises", what promises are they standing on? The promises to Abraham? Their were two promises, the birthright and the Sceptre. Abraham was promised physical blessings...

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

And just what covenant was this?

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

And here is where the promises became unconditional...

Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Why? Because Abraham obeyed God. The promises become twofold here, national blessings and in verse 18 spiritual blessings...

Gen 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

See any veiled promise of the Messiah here in this prophecy? As far as the birthright, notice the blessings given to the other tribes, especially Joseph. Now back a chapter...

Gen 48:8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these?
Gen 48:9 And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.

Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
Gen 48:21 And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
Gen 48:22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.

So Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, received a portion more than the rest of sons. Also, in verse 16, notice that the name Israel was to be named on Ephraim and Manasseh, not on Judah. Judah is the tribe of the Jews, Israel is composed of Ephraim and Manasseh. Ever notice that quite often Judah and Israel are mentioned separately?

1Ki_12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

First time in the Bible the word Jew is used...

2Ki 16:1 In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah Ahaz the son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign.
2Ki 16:2 Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD his God, like David his father.
2Ki 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.
2Ki 16:4 And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.
2Ki 16:5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.

Ahaz was the king of Judah.

2Ki 16:6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.
2Ki 16:7 So Ahaz sent messengers to Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, saying, I am thy servant and thy son: come up, and save me out of the hand of the king of Syria, and out of the hand of the king of Israel, which rise up against me.

Now, notice the context, Israel is at war with the Jews.

The promises were separated, Judah received the blessing of the Sceptre, the Messiah would come through him but the majority of the promises were given to Joseph and Joseph was to carry the name of Israel. Both of these promises are tied to and fulfilled on the earth.

Hi John,

I would add the land promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. These have not yet inherited the Land. In order for God to fulfill His promise to them it has to be on a renewed earth.

Also, for them to receive the promise of inheriting the land forever, they must be alive forever. A resurrection to eternal life.

 

[Larry H]

Hi Butch

Your quote to John

Hi John

I would add the land promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. These have not yet inherited the Land. In order for God to fulfill His promise to them it has to be on a renewed earth.

According to the scriptures the land promise to the forefather, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ARE ALREADY FULFILLED.

Nehemiah 9:7 "You are the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham.

8 You found his heart faithful to you, and you made acovenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites,Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girga++++es. YOU HAVE KEPT YOUR PROMISE because you are righteous.

Joshua 21:43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn togive their forefathers, and they took possession of it AND SETTLED THERE.

I’ll take your quotes a little at a time to stay one the same page.

That is only part of the promise. The land was promised to Abraham personally. I was also promised to Isaac and Jacob. None of them ever received the land. Their offspring did but they tenmselves did not. Stephen states plainly that Abraham never received that land.

2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
(Act 7:2-5 KJV)

The land was promised to Abraham himself.

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. (Gen 13:14-17 KJV)

As Stephen said Abraham never received it. The only way he can receive it is through the resurrection.

Hi Butch

The land promises were physically fulfilled in the children of the Father. Israel possessed all the land promised. And so all the land God swore to Abraham is history.

God gave the land to the Fathers through seed; this is the whole story concerning land promises in the OT.

God assigned the land to Abraham and his line, and when he died its assignment was to his seed.

God gave Genesis 28:4 May he give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham, so that you may take possession of the land where you now live as an alien, the land God gave to Abraham."

Genesis 35:12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I alsogive to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you."

Deuteronomy 30:5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.



Where does the New Testament state

Abraham is to be raised in bodily human form?

Abraham is coming back again to possess Canaan?

Our hope is to live forever on planet earth?

I can save you the leg work, it dosn't

 

[Larry H]

Hi Butch

We have cleared that up scripturally about the land promises to the forefathers. And found in the NT no mention about the questions I asked in the previous post.

It is time to enter holy ground. If you belong to Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:29 Inheritance in the New Testament has nothing to do with physical land. Meekness is the criterion of a true believers. As for the wicked; it is destine for all people to pass away, and the wicked will be cut off never to return into existence.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch

Your quote to John

Hi John

I would add the land promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob. These have not yet inherited the Land. In order for God to fulfill His promise to them it has to be on a renewed earth.

According to the scriptures the land promise to the forefather, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ARE ALREADY FULFILLED.

Nehemiah 9:7 "You are the Lord God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham.

8 You found his heart faithful to you, and you made acovenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites,Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girga++++es. YOU HAVE KEPT YOUR PROMISE because you are righteous.

Joshua 21:43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn togive their forefathers, and they took possession of it AND SETTLED THERE.

I’ll take your quotes a little at a time to stay one the same page.

That is only part of the promise. The land was promised to Abraham personally. I was also promised to Isaac and Jacob. None of them ever received the land. Their offspring did but they tenmselves did not. Stephen states plainly that Abraham never received that land.

2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
(Act 7:2-5 KJV)

The land was promised to Abraham himself.

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. (Gen 13:14-17 KJV)

As Stephen said Abraham never received it. The only way he can receive it is through the resurrection.

Hi Butch

The land promises were physically fulfilled in the children of the Father. Israel possessed all the land promised. And so all the land God swore to Abraham is history.

God gave the land to the Fathers through seed; this is the whole story concerning land promises in the OT.

God assigned the land to Abraham and his line, and when he died its assignment was to his seed.

God gave Genesis 28:4 May he give you and your descendants the blessing given to Abraham, so that you may take possession of the land where you now live as an alien, the land God gave to Abraham."

Genesis 35:12 The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I alsogive to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you."

Deuteronomy 30:5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.



Where does the New Testament state

Abraham is to be raised in bodily human form?

Abraham is coming back again to possess Canaan?

Our hope is to live forever on planet earth?

I can save you the leg work, it dosn't

Hi before time,

I've already given you the texts. Stephen said that God promised that land to Abraham and that Abraham has not yet received it.

2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. (Act 7:2-5 KJV)

It's right there. God promised it to Abraham and Abraham did not receive it. Stephen says he didn't even receive enough to put his foot on.



8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: (Heb 11:8-9 KJV)

The promises were made to Abraham and his seed. The seed were not the Jews, Paul said the seed was singular and was Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16 KJV)

You quoted Gen 28:4 Which speaks of the "Blessing of Abraham". That phrase only appears twice in the Scriptures, here in Gen 28 and in Galatians 3,

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree "),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(Gal 3:13-14 NKJ)

You see, Paul applies that promise to believers not the Jews. The "Blessing of Abraham" in Gen 28:4 specifically states that the land is the promise and Paul applies that to the Gentiles in Galatians 3.

NKJ Genesis 28:1 Then Isaac called Jacob and blessed him, and charged him, and said to him: "You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan.
2 "Arise, go to Padan Aram, to the house of Bethuel your mother's father; and take yourself a wife from there of the daughters of Laban your mother's brother.
3 "May God Almighty bless you, And make you fruitful and multiply you, That you may be an assembly of peoples;
4 And give you the blessing of Abraham, To you and your descendants with you, That you may inherit the land In which you are a stranger, Which God gave to Abraham." (Gen 28:1-4 NKJ)

Paul applies this to the Gentiles.

6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree "),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The land in heritance is for the believers.

(Gal 3:6-14 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch

We have cleared that up scripturally about the land promises to the forefathers. And found in the NT no mention about the questions I asked in the previous post.

It is time to enter holy ground. If you belong to Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:29 Inheritance in the New Testament has nothing to do with physical land. Meekness is the criterion of a true believers. As for the wicked; it is destine for all people to pass away, and the wicked will be cut off never to return into existence.

Hi beforetime,

What has been cleared up? The inheritance is "only" the land. There is no other inheritance. We've also not cleared up the issue of what a "spiritual" kingdom is. Are you suggesting that "spiritual" is not physical?

Also, are you suggesting that the resurrection is not bodily? If so you are on dangerous ground. This was the claim of the Gnostics, they denied the resurrection of the flesh.

Additionally, no one has yet established a disembodied consciousness that would exist outside of the body.

 

[Guest]

INHERITANCE/DEFINITION#2. the genetic characters transmitted from parent to offspring, taken collectively.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inheritance?s=t



In this case, don't we already inherit the characterists of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Larry H]

Hi Butch

We have cleared that up scripturally about the land promises to the forefathers. And found in the NT no mention about the questions I asked in the previous post.

It is time to enter holy ground. If you belong to Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:29 Inheritance in the New Testament has nothing to do with physical land. Meekness is the criterion of a true believers. As for the wicked; it is destine for all people to pass away, and the wicked will be cut off never to return into existence.

Hi beforetime,

What has been cleared up? The inheritance is "only" the land. There is no other inheritance. We've also not cleared up the issue of what a "spiritual" kingdom is. Are you suggesting that "spiritual" is not physical?

Also, are you suggesting that the resurrection is not bodily? If so you are on dangerous ground. This was the claim of the Gnostics, they denied the resurrection of the flesh.

Additionally, no one has yet established a disembodied consciousness that would exist outside of the body.

Hi Butch

Does the Bible teach that Israel possessed all the land God promises to Israel through Abraham.

Joshua 21:43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there.

Nehemiah 9:8 You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites,Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girga++++es. You have kept your promise because you are righteous.

Can someone own a land and not put one foot on it.

He gave him no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child. Acts 7:5

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch

We have cleared that up scripturally about the land promises to the forefathers. And found in the NT no mention about the questions I asked in the previous post.

It is time to enter holy ground. If you belong to Christ you are the seed of Abraham and heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:29 Inheritance in the New Testament has nothing to do with physical land. Meekness is the criterion of a true believers. As for the wicked; it is destine for all people to pass away, and the wicked will be cut off never to return into existence.

Hi beforetime,

What has been cleared up? The inheritance is "only" the land. There is no other inheritance. We've also not cleared up the issue of what a "spiritual" kingdom is. Are you suggesting that "spiritual" is not physical?

Also, are you suggesting that the resurrection is not bodily? If so you are on dangerous ground. This was the claim of the Gnostics, they denied the resurrection of the flesh.

Additionally, no one has yet established a disembodied consciousness that would exist outside of the body.

Hi Butch

Does the Bible teach that Israel possessed all the land God promises to Israel through Abraham.

Joshua 21:43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there.

Nehemiah 9:8 You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites,Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girga++++es. You have kept your promise because you are righteous.

Can someone own a land and not put one foot on it.

He gave him no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child. Acts 7:5

Israel isn't the issue, The land was promised to Abraham as an everlasting possession. Scripture plainly says that Abraham never received it. Therefore if God is going to keep His promise to Abraham it will have to be done after the resurrection.

 

[Larry H]

We've also not cleared up the issue of what a "spiritual" kingdom is. Are you suggesting that "spiritual" is not physical?

Also, are you suggesting that the resurrection is not bodily? If so you are on dangerous ground. This was the claim of the Gnostics, they denied the resurrection of the flesh.

Additionally, no one has yet established a disembodied consciousness that would exist outside of the body.

Hi Butch Thanks for starting this thread, I find it most interesting.

A literal approach to scripture

The words everlasting possession is the final key to this understanding. This is proof someday in the future Abraham will receive the promises land. The land he never put his foot on, and in the future he will have that privilege.

This hope was a plot of land: the reasons Christ suffered and died, besides the atonement. And we too, God willing, will have a plot of land in a sinless paradise earth. Our hope is to have everything we want in this refurbished new earth. “Also at the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven†Matthew22:30 "There will be no marriage on this planet for boys and girls who fall in love"

There will be peace among the animal, Isaiah 11:6 “The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them†However on the other hand, "No lion will be there, nor will any ferocious beast get upon it; they will not be found there. But only the redeemed will walk there" Isaiah 35:9 Go figure!

Humanity will eat from a literal tree of life, like the fountain of youth, to keep them alive. There will be no more death, and pain as was prior to the fall. Revelation 21:1-4 even though God said to Eve she will suffer more pain while giving birth. This was after the pair ate the forbidden fruit. “To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in child bearing; with pain you will give birth to children†Genesis 3:16 “All this in place of a heavenly resurrection into the intimate presence of Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christâ€
.
2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternalâ€

Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ inGod.

Philippians 3:19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

1 Corinthians 6:13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"-but God will destroy them both.

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent welive in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven,not built by human hands.

2 Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,

14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord JESUS CHRIST HAS MADE CLEAR TO ME.

Stay tuned

 

[Butch5]

We've also not cleared up the issue of what a "spiritual" kingdom is. Are you suggesting that "spiritual" is not physical?

Also, are you suggesting that the resurrection is not bodily? If so you are on dangerous ground. This was the claim of the Gnostics, they denied the resurrection of the flesh.

Additionally, no one has yet established a disembodied consciousness that would exist outside of the body.

Hi Butch Thanks for starting this thread, I find it most interesting.

A literal approach to scripture

The words everlasting possession is the final key to this understanding. This is proof someday in the future Abraham will receive the promises land. The land he never put his foot on, and in the future he will have that privilege.

This hope was a plot of land: the reasons Christ suffered and died, besides the atonement. And we too, God willing, will have a plot of land in a sinless paradise earth. Our hope is to have everything we want in this refurbished new earth. “Also at the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” Matthew22:30 "There will be no marriage on this planet for boys and girls who fall in love"

There will be peace among the animal, Isaiah 11:6 “The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them” However on the other hand, "No lion will be there, nor will any ferocious beast get upon it; they will not be found there. But only the redeemed will walk there" Isaiah 35:9 Go figure!

Humanity will eat from a literal tree of life, like the fountain of youth, to keep them alive. There will be no more death, and pain as was prior to the fall. Revelation 21:1-4 even though God said to Eve she will suffer more pain while giving birth. This was after the pair ate the forbidden fruit. “To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in child bearing; with pain you will give birth to children” Genesis 3:16 “All this in place of a heavenly resurrection into the intimate presence of Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christ”
.
2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal”

Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ inGod.

Philippians 3:19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

1 Corinthians 6:13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"-but God will destroy them both.

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent welive in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven,not built by human hands.

2 Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,

14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord JESUS CHRIST HAS MADE CLEAR TO ME.

Stay tuned

Hi before time,

I'll wait until you finish before responding, however, I'd like to present a paper I've written that will explain what I've been saying in much more detail for you and anyone who may be following this thread to consider. It is called "The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective) you can find it here "That Which Was From The Beginning". Just click on the Kingdom of God pdf.

 

[Larry H]

We've also not cleared up the issue of what a "spiritual" kingdom is. Are you suggesting that "spiritual" is not physical?

Also, are you suggesting that the resurrection is not bodily? If so you are on dangerous ground. This was the claim of the Gnostics, they denied the resurrection of the flesh.

Additionally, no one has yet established a disembodied consciousness that would exist outside of the body.

Hi Butch Thanks for starting this thread, I find it most interesting.

A literal approach to scripture

The words everlasting possession is the final key to this understanding. This is proof someday in the future Abraham will receive the promises land. The land he never put his foot on, and in the future he will have that privilege.

This hope was a plot of land: the reasons Christ suffered and died, besides the atonement. And we too, God willing, will have a plot of land in a sinless paradise earth. Our hope is to have everything we want in this refurbished new earth. “Also at the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven†Matthew22:30 "There will be no marriage on this planet for boys and girls who fall in love"

There will be peace among the animal, Isaiah 11:6 “The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them†However on the other hand, "No lion will be there, nor will any ferocious beast get upon it; they will not be found there. But only the redeemed will walk there" Isaiah 35:9 Go figure!

Humanity will eat from a literal tree of life, like the fountain of youth, to keep them alive. There will be no more death, and pain as was prior to the fall. Revelation 21:1-4 even though God said to Eve she will suffer more pain while giving birth. This was after the pair ate the forbidden fruit. “To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in child bearing; with pain you will give birth to children†Genesis 3:16 “All this in place of a heavenly resurrection into the intimate presence of Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christâ€
.
2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternalâ€

Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ inGod.

Philippians 3:19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

1 Corinthians 6:13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"-but God will destroy them both.

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent welive in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven,not built by human hands.

2 Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body,

14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord JESUS CHRIST HAS MADE CLEAR TO ME.

Stay tuned

Hi before time,

I'll wait until you finish before responding, however, I'd like to present a paper I've written that will explain what I've been saying in much more detail for you and anyone who may be following this thread to consider. It is called "The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective) you can find it here "That Which Was From The Beginning". Just click on the Kingdom of God pdf.

Hi Butch

God gave Abraham the land only lineally; “in other words belonging to or being in the direct line of descent from an ancestor†and legally for his offspring. Although he received the land by promise, he himself did not live in it. This I consider bestows Abraham’s hope and destination celestial in nature. Acts 7:5 Hebrews 11:13 I think God designed it this way!

The Hebrew word forever in the Old Testament occasionally means the end of a present dispensation. Or as Webster definition puts the word dispensation “exemption from a law or from an impediment,vow, or oath.†This then would imply the end of one age and the beginning a new era when considering Abrahams state of affairs in scripture. Strong's Greek dictionary follows the same line of thinking on the word forever. In Genesis 13:15

Note Young’s Literal Translation!

Genesis 13:15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever. NIV

Compare a literal translation

Genesis 13:15 for the whole of the land which thou are seeing, to thee I give it, and to thy seed — to the age. YLT

Consider an example where forever does not mean forever; that word in scripture could have limitations.

Jonah 2:6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in FOREVER. But you brought my life up from the pit, O Lord my God.

However, Jonah was not in the fish forever. He was only there for three days and three nights.

Will God exempt Moaband Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah from the a paradise environment.

Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as Ilive," declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, "surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah — a place of weeds and salt pits, a waste land FOREVER . The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land."

I will check out the link, and feel free to E-Mail me your paper on the subject matter.

BTW You had asked if Jesus was raised in a physcial body, no question about it Butch He sure was.

 

[Butch5]

Here's a quote from Irenaeus. Irenaeus was a bishop of Lyons, Gaul in thesecond century. He had formerly been a student of Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna,who was himself one of John’s students.

[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino][FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino]"It behooves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: ‘For the expectation of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creation has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creation itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.’ [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino]"Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains steadfast. For thus He said: ‘Lift up thine eyes, and look from this place where now thou art, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which thou seest, I will give to thee and to thy seed, even forever.’ And again He says, ‘Arise, and go through the length and [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino][/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino][FONT=Palatino Linotype,Palatino]breadth of the land, since I will give it unto thee;’ and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein. And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite. Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: ‘I will give this land to thy seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates.’ If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: ‘For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham.’ Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: ‘But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise.’ And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, ‘The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.’ And again, confirming his former words, he says, ‘Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, fore-seeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham.’ Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the land to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, ‘Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.’"[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Butch5]

We've also not cleared up the issue of what a"spiritual" kingdom is. Are you suggesting that "spiritual"is not physical?

Also, are you suggesting that the resurrection is not bodily? If so you areon dangerous ground. This was the claim of the Gnostics, they denied theresurrection of the flesh.



Additionally, no one has yet established a disembodied consciousness thatwould exist outside of the body.

Hi Butch Thanks for starting this thread, I find it most interesting.



A literal approach to scripture



The words everlasting possession is the final key to this understanding.This is proof someday in the future Abraham will receive the promises land. Theland he never put his foot on, and in the future he will have that privilege.



This hope was a plot of land: the reasons Christ suffered and died, besidesthe atonement. And we too, God willing, will have a plot of land in a sinlessparadise earth. Our hope is to have everything we want in this refurbished newearth. “Also at the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given inmarriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” Matthew22:30 "There willbe no marriage on this planet for boys and girls who fall in love"



There will be peace among the animal, Isaiah 11:6 “The wolf will live withthe lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion andthe yearling together; and a little child will lead them” However on theother hand, "No lion will be there, nor will any ferocious beast get uponit; they will not be found there. But only the redeemed will walk there"Isaiah 35:9 Go figure!



Humanity will eat from a literal tree of life, like the fountain of youth,to keep them alive. There will be no more death, and pain as was prior to thefall. Revelation 21:1-4 even though God said to Eve she will suffer more painwhile giving birth. This was after the pair ate the forbidden fruit. “Tothe woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in child bearing;with pain you will give birth to children” Genesis 3:16 “All this inplace of a heavenly resurrection into the intimate presence of Jehovah and HisSon Jesus Christ”

.

2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what isunseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal”



Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.



3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ inGod.



Philippians 3:19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach,and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.



1 Corinthians 6:13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach forfood"-but God will destroy them both.



2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent welive in isdestroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven,not built byhuman hands.



2 Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live inthe tent of this body,



14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord JESUS CHRISTHAS MADE CLEAR TO ME.



Stay tuned

Hi before time,



I'll wait until you finish before responding, however, I'd like to present apaper I've written that will explain what I've been saying in much more detailfor you and anyone who may be following this thread to consider. It is called"The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective) you can find it here "That Which Was From The Beginning". Just clickon the Kingdom of God pdf.

Hi Butch



God gave Abraham the land only lineally; “in other words belonging to orbeing in the direct line of descent from an ancestor” and legally for hisoffspring. Although he received the land by promise, he himself did not live init. This I consider bestows Abraham’s hope and destination celestial in nature.Acts 7:5 Hebrews 11:13 I think God designed it this way!



The Hebrew word forever in the Old Testament occasionally means the end of apresent dispensation. Or as Webster definition puts the word dispensation“exemption from a law or from an impediment,vow, or oath.” This then wouldimply the end of one age and the beginning a new era when considering Abrahamsstate of affairs in scripture. Strong's Greek dictionary follows the same lineof thinking on the word forever. In Genesis 13:15



Note Young’s Literal Translation!



Genesis 13:15 All the land that you see I will give to you and youroffspring forever. NIV



Compare a literal translation



Genesis 13:15 for the whole of the land which thou are seeing, to thee Igive it, and to thy seed — to the age. YLT



Consider an example where forever does not mean forever; that word inscripture could have limitations.



Jonah 2:6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneathbarred me in FOREVER. But you brought my life up from the pit, O Lord my God.



However, Jonah was not in the fish forever. He was only there for three daysand three nights.



Will God exempt Moaband Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah from the aparadise environment.



Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as Ilive," declares the LordAlmighty, the God of Israel, "surely Moab will become like Sodom, theAmmonites like Gomorrah — a place of weeds and salt pits, a waste land FOREVER. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation willinherit their land."



I will check out the link, and feel free to E-Mail me your paper on thesubject matter.



BTW You had asked if Jesus was raised in a physcial body, no question aboutit Butch He sure was.

Hi before time,



I am aware of the limitations of the word "forever". I know thatit doesn't always mean forever. As I understand it the Hebrews didn't have aword for forever and would usually express it with something like to the agesof the ages. However, I think more to the point is the fact that Stephen makesthe point that the land was promised to Abraham personally and that he neverreceived it. This eternal land inheritance was the earliest understanding ofthe Christian's hope. It wasn't until around the 200's A.D. that the idea ofgoing to Heaven entered the church. It seems to have entered the church inAlexandria Egypt with several Christians who were influenced by GreekPhilosophy, Plato to be precise.



The link is the paper I was referring to. It is "The Kingdom Of God"

 

[John 8:32]

Something else that is equally important to understand is that promiseS, were made to Abraham. The Birthright, national greatness, promises on one hand and the Sceptre promise on the other. Both of these promises were made, the Sceptre was partially fulfilled to Israel in 31 AD, but not to all. Some were blinded and excluded until a later date so that God could have mercy on them. The Birthright promises were partially fulfilled but will be finalized in the Millenium. Both of these promises will be fulfilled in their entirety on the earth.

 

[Larry H]

Hi beforetime,

I am aware of the limitations of the word "forever". I know that it doesn't always mean forever. As I understand it the Hebrews didn't have awordfor forever and would usually express it with something like to the agesof theages. However, I think more to the point is the fact that Stephen makes thepoint that the land was promised to Abraham personally and that he never received it. This eternal land inheritance was the earliest understanding of the Christian's hope. It wasn't until around the 200's A.D. that the ideaofgoing to Heaven entered the church. It seems to have entered the churchinAlexandria Egyptwith several Christians who were influenced by Greek Philosophy, Plato to beprecise.

The link is the paper I was referring to. It is "The Kingdom Of God"

Hi Butch

Clement was a common name in the first century, and it’s likely he was not the same Clement in Philippians 4:3. It’s not a proven fact Clement wrote, Clement of Rome - First Epistle. There is no internal evidence in the letters themselves.

The writer claims inspiration directly from God as in the quote following.

Quote “For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines†Unquote.

Your source of information as follows on the resurrection on the dead.

Quote CLEMENT OF ROME, First Epistle

CHAPTER 24 -- GOD CONTINUALLY SHOWS US IN NATURE THAT THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION.

Let us contemplate, beloved, the resurrection which is at all times taking place.

Quote … For I choose to follownot men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. Forif you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly considerit, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ,Galilæans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me
impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.†(Chapter 80) …Unquote

Does Ezekiel and Isaiah and others support the claim about Jerusalem and the thousand years? Maybe you can connect the dots for me scriptually.

 

[Larry H]

Hi beforetime,

I am aware of the limitations of the word "forever". I know that it doesn't always mean forever. As I understand it the Hebrews didn't have awordfor forever and would usually express it with something like to the agesof theages. However, I think more to the point is the fact that Stephen makes thepoint that the land was promised to Abraham personally and that he never received it. This eternal land inheritance was the earliest understanding of the Christian's hope. It wasn't until around the 200's A.D. that the ideaofgoing to Heaven entered the church. It seems to have entered the churchinAlexandria Egyptwith several Christians who were influenced by Greek Philosophy, Plato to beprecise.

The link is the paper I was referring to. It is "The Kingdom Of God"

Hi Butch

Clement was a common name in the first century, and it’s likely he was not the same Clement in Philippians 4:3. It’s not a proven fact Clement wrote, Clement of Rome - First Epistle. There is no internal evidence in the letters themselves.

The writer claims inspiration directly from God as in the quote following.

Quote “For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines” Unquote.

Your source of information as follows on the resurrection on the dead.

Quote CLEMENT OF ROME, First Epistle

CHAPTER 24 -- GOD CONTINUALLY SHOWS US IN NATURE THAT THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION.

Let us contemplate, beloved, the resurrection which is at all times taking place.

Quote … For I choose to follownot men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. Forif you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly considerit, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ,Galilæans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me
impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” (Chapter 80) …Unquote

Does Ezekiel and Isaiah and others support the claim about Jerusalem and the thousand years? Maybe you can connect the dots for me scriptually.

The only hope [Ephesians 4:4] is heavenly. [Philippians 3:20] The New Testament and Old do not mention a bodily earthly afterlife. The scripture one uses to proof differently is the “meek shall inherit the earth.” Matthew 5:5 However this verse is refereeing to all God’s children past, present or future. [1Corinthians 3:22]

No different then the other verses in the beatitudes; Matthew chapter five. In fact if we claim no meekness, humbleness in God's eyes,as Jesus said, Then we are not His Fathers child [Romans 8:15]. How clear is that?

Matthew 5:11-12 “Happy are YOUwhen people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12 Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR rewardis great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior toYOU

Is Matthew referring to a future generation only; no, we are responsible for our own actions now. There is not going to be a second chance salvation plan in the future. It's now or never as the song goes. “And not the expression the devil made me do it.

Matthew 6:20-21 “Rather, store upfor yourselves treasures in heaven , where neither moth nor rust consumes, andwhere thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there yourheart will be also.”

This is what the Old Faithful looked forward to.

Hebrews 11:13-16 “In faith all these died, although they did not get the[fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them andpublicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.14 For those who say such things give evidence that they are earnestly seekinga place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had indeed kept remembering that [place] from which they had gone forth, they would have had opportunity to return.16 But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belongingto heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God,for he has made a city ready for them.”

The One body

Hebrews 11:40 God had planned something betterfor us so that only together with us would they be made perfect

 

[Butch5]

Hi beforetime,

I am aware of the limitations of the word "forever". I know that it doesn't always mean forever. As I understand it the Hebrews didn't have awordfor forever and would usually express it with something like to the agesof theages. However, I think more to the point is the fact that Stephen makes thepoint that the land was promised to Abraham personally and that he never received it. This eternal land inheritance was the earliest understanding of the Christian's hope. It wasn't until around the 200's A.D. that the ideaofgoing to Heaven entered the church. It seems to have entered the churchinAlexandria Egyptwith several Christians who were influenced by Greek Philosophy, Plato to beprecise.

The link is the paper I was referring to. It is "The Kingdom Of God"

Hi Butch

Clement was a common name in the first century, and it’s likely he was not the same Clement in Philippians 4:3. It’s not a proven fact Clement wrote, Clement of Rome - First Epistle. There is no internal evidence in the letters themselves.

The writer claims inspiration directly from God as in the quote following.

Quote “For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines” Unquote.

Your source of information as follows on the resurrection on the dead.

Quote CLEMENT OF ROME, First Epistle

CHAPTER 24 -- GOD CONTINUALLY SHOWS US IN NATURE THAT THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION.

Let us contemplate, beloved, the resurrection which is at all times taking place.

Quote … For I choose to follownot men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. Forif you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly considerit, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ,Galilæans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me
impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” (Chapter 80) …Unquote

Does Ezekiel and Isaiah and others support the claim about Jerusalem and the thousand years? Maybe you can connect the dots for me scriptually.

Hi before time,

If you're making the claim that Clement was not the one who wrote the letter, can you supply some evidence? The same thing could be said of the apostles. Just because a letter opens with Paul an apostle doesn't mean it was written by the apostle Paul. Anyone could have written a letter and said, Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ. Look at the Gospels of Peter and Thomas.

Regarding the new Jerusalem Isaiah 65-66 speak on it. Ezekiel speaks of river flower from the temple that get deeper the farther it goes. He speaks of tress on either side. This is what Jesus speaks of in Revelation. Compare this passage from Ezekiel where he describes the temple with Jesus words.

KJV Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
(Eze 47:1-14 KJV)

In this passage Ezekiel describes a river flowing out of the temple that give life to everything it touches, doesn't that sound a lot like Jesus' living water? This river will flow into the dead sea and give it life. Ezekiel said that one either side of this river were trees that would continually yield fruit and they would be for food an medicine. Compare this to John's words speaking of the new Jerusalem.

KJV Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:1-2 KJV)

This is just what Ezekiel said and he was speaking of a physical Jerusalem on this earth. John said he saw the new Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven.