Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[Butch5]

Smaller, can you give me your definition of "soul" how are you using that word?

There are, technically speaking, souls of men and also souls of devils.

To which are you referring? If armchair theologians such as ourselves don't understand that 'in man' there are technically TWO separate entities their understanding of such terms as 'sleep' will invariably land on man only when that is not the factual case.

Here for example is a picture of what goes on in the 'house' [read BODY] of A MAN according to Jesus:

Matt. 12:
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

There is an unseen 'wicked generation' on this present earth and according to Jesus these abide IN MAN. IN the instance above for example we could see A MAN'S SOUL and SEVEN (corrected-8) WICKED SPIRITS, also with SINNING SOULS.

Any who don't have an account of 'these members' and 'that wicked generation' are, technically speaking, BLIND to scriptural realities.

So, do you have an account for 'those souls' that sin, they being the captors of mankinds MINDS?

Most don't, so you are more than likely in common company.

s

The passage you quoted said spirits, not souls. There is a difference between a spirit and a soul.

 

[smaller]

The passage you quoted said spirits, not souls. There is a difference between a spirit and a soul.

Well thank you for walking directly into the door of understandings.

Both man and devil have spirits. Their mutual but separate existence within A SINGULAR BODY is their SOUL LIFE.

When the 'spirit' of A MAN departs that body, the other spirit remains here on earth, looking for a new place to hide.

The soul of that man, once removed from their co-part in our present corrupt, weak, mortal, dishonorable BODY, will never be the same person or soul they were here on earth. They (and we of course eventually) get NEW bodies that are not subject to intrusions by our enemies and mutual adversaries. This was shown on the Mount of Transfiguration with Moses and Elijah for examples. Or from those beheaded for the testimony of Christ beneath the altar in Revelation, them STILL SPEAKING post death. Or even those Saints who were seen after the resurrection.

s

 

[John 8:32]

Smaller, can you give me your definition of "soul" how are you using that word?

There are, technically speaking, souls of men and also souls of devils.

To which are you referring? If armchair theologians such as ourselves don't understand that 'in man' there are technically TWO separate entities their understanding of such terms as 'sleep' will invariably land on man only when that is not the factual case.

Here for example is a picture of what goes on in the 'house' [read BODY] of A MAN according to Jesus:

Matt. 12:
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

There is an unseen 'wicked generation' on this present earth and according to Jesus these abide IN MAN. IN the instance above for example we could see A MAN'S SOUL and SEVEN (corrected-8) WICKED SPIRITS, also with SINNING SOULS.

Any who don't have an account of 'these members' and 'that wicked generation' are, technically speaking, BLIND to scriptural realities.

So, do you have an account for 'those souls' that sin, they being the captors of mankinds MINDS?

Most don't, so you are more than likely in common company.

s

The passage you quoted said spirits, not souls. There is a difference between a spirit and a soul.

A soul (nephesh) is an air breathing creature...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

soul:

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Souls are not immortal...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Only God possesses inherent immortality...

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

We are given immortality at the resurrection...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[smaller]

A soul (nephesh) is an air breathing creature...

Never said otherwise in my last post to Butch.

Souls are not immortal...

A soul has a 'mortal life' but that life is the life of the spirit of either man or devil in their 'body' of flesh.

Only God possesses inherent immortality...

Again, never said otherwise. Adam was always the son of God, placed into a dust body that was 'subject to' weakness, dishonor and corruption.

It was never Gods Intentions to leave him there in that wet pile of dust.

The Last Adam became ONE with his Father at death, and the spirit of Adam returned to God.

We are given immortality at the resurrection...

Believers are reaped upon their individual deaths, but those who went prior are incomplete without us.

When the Body of Christ has been completed, the exercise will end and there will be only ONE NEW MAN, in ONE NEW BODY.

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

To say they do not exist however is not accurate.

God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the GOD OF THE LIVING.

The 'soul' you see 'sleeping' is the spirit of slumber that God puts upon everyone in this body of flesh.

Some 'awake' in this present life.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My eschatology is based in the early Christian faith. Neither the Jews nor the first Christians believed in a heavenly destiny, they were looking for a physical kingdom on this earth. The idea of going to heaven was an idea in Greek philosophy. The Gnostics who mixed Christian and Greek philosophical though claimed that they were given special knowledge that the apostles were not. It wasn't until the time of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, that the Church started to thinking about going to heaven around the 200's A.D. If read the earliest Christians they were looking for an earthly kingdom just like we see in the Scriptures. Ive pointed out several times now that there is not a single passage of Scripture that states believers go to Heaven. Yet, wee have many passages about men living on the earth forever. We have passages about God living on the earth forever. This evidence alone should convince any seeker of the truth.

Regarding your question about the new heavens and new earth. I believe the nations will exist on new earth for 1000 years under the rule of those raised in the first resurrection. At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be loosed to tempt the nations one last time. At the end of this time all who remain will be judged both the living and the dead. Those who are found in the book of life will be saved those who are not will be cast into the lake of Fire along with death and Hades. Then begins the eternity or what the early Christians called the eighth day.

The early Christians spoke of man toiling under the curse for 6000 years. They said that the days of creation were both literal and prophetic. The Scriptures say a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. The early Christians said the 6000 years under the curse are equivalent to 6 days. The 7th day is the kingdom of 1000 years, the Sabbath rest. Then comes the eighth day. This is just a quick overview I can go into more detail if you are interested.

Revelation 19 & 20 speak about the people of God being in, and coming down from, heaven.

That's another reason why I believe I'll go to heaven when I die, if I die before the second coming.

 

[Butch5]

My eschatology is based in the early Christian faith. Neither the Jews nor the first Christians believed in a heavenly destiny, they were looking for a physical kingdom on this earth. The idea of going to heaven was an idea in Greek philosophy. The Gnostics who mixed Christian and Greek philosophical though claimed that they were given special knowledge that the apostles were not. It wasn't until the time of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, that the Church started to thinking about going to heaven around the 200's A.D. If read the earliest Christians they were looking for an earthly kingdom just like we see in the Scriptures. Ive pointed out several times now that there is not a single passage of Scripture that states believers go to Heaven. Yet, wee have many passages about men living on the earth forever. We have passages about God living on the earth forever. This evidence alone should convince any seeker of the truth.

Regarding your question about the new heavens and new earth. I believe the nations will exist on new earth for 1000 years under the rule of those raised in the first resurrection. At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be loosed to tempt the nations one last time. At the end of this time all who remain will be judged both the living and the dead. Those who are found in the book of life will be saved those who are not will be cast into the lake of Fire along with death and Hades. Then begins the eternity or what the early Christians called the eighth day.

The early Christians spoke of man toiling under the curse for 6000 years. They said that the days of creation were both literal and prophetic. The Scriptures say a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. The early Christians said the 6000 years under the curse are equivalent to 6 days. The 7th day is the kingdom of 1000 years, the Sabbath rest. Then comes the eighth day. This is just a quick overview I can go into more detail if you are interested.

Revelation 19 & 20 speak about the people of God being in, and coming down from, heaven.

That's another reason why I believe I'll go to heaven when I die, if I die before the second coming.

Hi Jethro,

Can you elaborate?

 

[Butch5]

Smaller, can you give me your definition of "soul" how are you using that word?

There are, technically speaking, souls of men and also souls of devils.

To which are you referring? If armchair theologians such as ourselves don't understand that 'in man' there are technically TWO separate entities their understanding of such terms as 'sleep' will invariably land on man only when that is not the factual case.

Here for example is a picture of what goes on in the 'house' [read BODY] of A MAN according to Jesus:

Matt. 12:
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

There is an unseen 'wicked generation' on this present earth and according to Jesus these abide IN MAN. IN the instance above for example we could see A MAN'S SOUL and SEVEN (corrected-8) WICKED SPIRITS, also with SINNING SOULS.

Any who don't have an account of 'these members' and 'that wicked generation' are, technically speaking, BLIND to scriptural realities.

So, do you have an account for 'those souls' that sin, they being the captors of mankinds MINDS?

Most don't, so you are more than likely in common company.

s

The passage you quoted said spirits, not souls. There is a difference between a spirit and a soul.

A soul (nephesh) is an air breathing creature...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

soul:

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Souls are not immortal...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Only God possesses inherent immortality...

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

We are given immortality at the resurrection...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Hi John,

I agree, that was the point I was getting at. A soul is comprised of a body and the breath/spirit of God. Therefore a spirit wouldn't constitute a soul. In the passage that was quoted Jesus said spirits not souls. I believe we are in full agreement on this topic.

 

[Larry H]

Hi Butch

The idea of going to heaven was an idea in Greek philosophy. The Gnostics who mixed Christian and Greek philosophical though claimed that they were given special knowledge that the apostles were not. It wasn't until the time of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, that the Church started to thinking about going to heaven around the 200's A.D. If read the earliest Christians they were looking for an earthly kingdom just like we see in the Scriptures.

The Pharisees ask Jesus about the Kingdom of God and when I would come in Luke 17:20-21 Note the words of Christ answer to their question. “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst. *or among you”

In other words Jesus said that it was not something to be observed, “here it is or there it is” It is the same ways we see Christians today, as they look for the kingdom, no different than the Pharisees. You see Butch if the kingdom was something observable than everyone would believe.

There is only one scripture in the New Testament that describes the kingdom of God

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

Ive pointed out several times now that there is not a single passage of Scripture that states believers go to Heaven

I think we both agree Christ is sitting on the right of His Father in heaven, and this is where Paul wanted to be. Unless one believes Christ is not in the heavenly realm.

2 Cor 5:6-8 'Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as weare at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.'

Paul’s expectation was to be in the heaven with the Lord. “It is an instance too the hope of heaven.” I believe Heaven is the home of every Christian,and is claimed by them as such”

Philippians 1:23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remainin the body.

Why do the scripture never use the expressions, physical resurrection, resurrection of the body, or resurrected body?

Yet, we have many passages about men living on the earth forever

Butch can you point one out where Jesus or the Apostles mention men living on planet earth forever

Regarding your question about the new heavens and new earth. I believe the nations will exist on new earth for 1000 years under the rule of those raised in the first resurrection.

Do you believethe New Heavens and Earth mentioned in Revelation 21:1-4 will take place during the millennium or after same? It seems the first resurrection takes place after the millennium.

Revelation 20:5 “(Therest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)This is the first resurrection” So how is it possible for the first resurrection believer to rule over the nations during the 1000 year reign if they come to life following it? Can you see what I am getting at!

The early Christians spoke of man toiling under the curse for 6000 years. They said that the days of creation were both literal and prophetic. The Scriptures say a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. The early Christians said the 6000 years under the curse are equivalent to 6 days. The 7th day is the kingdom of 1000 years, the Sabbath rest. Then comes the eighth day. This is just a quick overview I can go into more detail if you are interested.

I am interested with anything that has to do with the word of God, Butch feel free to present your doctrinal interpretation. I don’t remember Jesus or the Apostle presenting that quote either. Please reference scriptures in your statement. So I can see it from a scriptural point of view. Keep up the good work!

 

[John 8:32]

The passage you quoted said spirits, not souls. There is a difference between a spirit and a soul.

A soul (nephesh) is an air breathing creature...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

soul:

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Souls are not immortal...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Only God possesses inherent immortality...

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

We are given immortality at the resurrection...

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Hi John,

I agree, that was the point I was getting at. A soul is comprised of a body and the breath/spirit of God. Therefore a spirit wouldn't constitute a soul. In the passage that was quoted Jesus said spirits not souls. I believe we are in full agreement on this topic.

Yes, I believe we are.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch


The Pharisees ask Jesus about the Kingdom of God and when I would come in Luke 17:20-21 Note the words of Christ answer to their question. “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst. *or among you”

In other words Jesus said that it was not something to be observed, “here it is or there it is” It is the same ways we see Christians today, as they look for the kingdom, no different than the Pharisees. You see Butch if the kingdom was something observable than everyone would believe.

There is only one scripture in the New Testament that describes the kingdom of God

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

I think we both agree Christ is sitting on the right of His Father in heaven, and this is where Paul wanted to be. Unless one believes Christ is not in the heavenly realm.

2 Cor 5:6-8 'Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as weare at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.'

Paul’s expectation was to be in the heaven with the Lord. “It is an instance too the hope of heaven.” I believe Heaven is the home of every Christian,and is claimed by them as such”

Philippians 1:23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remainin the body.

Why do the scripture never use the expressions, physical resurrection, resurrection of the body, or resurrected body?

Butch can you point one out where Jesus or the Apostles mention men living on planet earth forever

Regarding your question about the new heavens and new earth. I believe the nations will exist on new earth for 1000 years under the rule of those raised in the first resurrection.

Do you believethe New Heavens and Earth mentioned in Revelation 21:1-4 will take place during the millennium or after same? It seems the first resurrection takes place after the millennium.

Revelation 20:5 “(Therest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)This is the first resurrection” So how is it possible for the first resurrection believer to rule over the nations during the 1000 year reign if they come to life following it? Can you see what I am getting at!

The early Christians spoke of man toiling under the curse for 6000 years. They said that the days of creation were both literal and prophetic. The Scriptures say a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. The early Christians said the 6000 years under the curse are equivalent to 6 days. The 7th day is the kingdom of 1000 years, the Sabbath rest. Then comes the eighth day. This is just a quick overview I can go into more detail if you are interested.

I am interested with anything that has to do with the word of God, Butch feel free to present your doctrinal interpretation. I don’t remember Jesus or the Apostle presenting that quote either. Please reference scriptures in your statement. So I can see it from a scriptural point of view. Keep up the good work!

Hi before time,

I had the response just about finished and lost it all. I'll have to redo it. However, in the mean time I though I give you some quotes from the early church on the 6000 years "The Early Church and Six Thousand Years".

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I think we .... agree Christ is sitting on the right of His Father in heaven, and this is where Paul wanted to be. Unless one believes Christ is not in the heavenly realm.
Paul’s expectation was to be in the heaven with the Lord.

Scriptures such as Acts 2 definately attest to the idea that Jesus reigning in Heaven on the right of His Father. Paul, as you quoted clearly desired to be with Jesus there. In Luke 22, Jesus made a promise about his 12 having a place at his table in his kingdom reign.

I believe Heaven is the home of every Christian, and is claimed by them

Here's where we disagree. I believe that the scriptures do in fact speak of there being a Heavenly inheritance, but that inheritance is NOT something promised to every Christian. What is promised to the faithful is the reward of LIFE, age lasting, free from the wages of sin.

Why do the scripture never use the expressions, physical resurrection, resurrection of the body, or resurrected body? Yet, we have many passages about men living on the earth forever .... can you point one out where Jesus or the Apostles mention men living on planet earth forever?

In Matthew 5:5 Jesus says the meek will inherit the lands (Earth). This appears to be Jesus directly quoting Psalms 37:10-11 which reads:
'In just a short time, the sinners will be gone; You'll look where he was, and not find him. But, the meek will inherit the lands, And find great delight in the abundance of peace.

Verses 28 and 29 of that same chapter go on to say:'
The righteous will always be guarded, As those without law are driven away. The seed of the Godless will perish, But, the righteous will inherit [the] lands, And camp upon it through ages of ages.'

I believe the nations will exist on new earth for 1000 years under the rule of those raised in the first resurrection. Do you believe the New Heavens and Earth mentioned in Revelation 21:1-4 will take place during the millennium or after same? It seems the first resurrection takes place after the millennium.

It would appear from the text of Rev 20 that the first resurrection of the martyrs would take place prior to the beginning of the 1000 years for it is those resurrected that are said to be reigning with Jesus for the 1000 years. The 'where' of this 1000yr reign is not discussed in the text.

 

[Larry H]

I believe Heaven is the home of every Christian, and is claimed by them

Here's where we disagree. I believe that the scriptures do in fact speak of there being a Heavenly inheritance, but that inheritance is NOT something promised to every Christian. What is promised to the faithful is the reward of LIFE, age, free from the wages of sin.

So you believe not all Christians go to heaven when they die, just some of them, what scripture would you reference two different hopes, or destination, for Christians. One earthly, meek inherit the earth, one heavenly of the reigning kings.

According to Paul’s ttheology I only see one hope. We both agree on a heavenly resurrection so that must it.

Ephesians 4:4 Thereis one body and one Spirit— just as you were called to ONE HOPE when you were called—

If one wanted to prove an earth hope they reference. “the meek will inherit the earth†If I toldyou the world belongs to you NOW in God’s eyes would you be surprises. Please note what Paul says, but remember we are speaking in God’s view. If we belong to Christ than we are the meek!

1 Corinthians 3:21 So then, no more boasting about men! ALL THINGS ARE YOURS,

22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the WORLD or life or death or the present or the future — ALL ARE YOURS,

23 AND YOU ARE OF CHRIST, and Christ is of God.

Matthew5:5 Jesus says the meek will inherit the lands (Earth). This appears to be Jesusdirectly quoting Psalms 37:10-11 which reads:
'In just a short time, the sinners will be gone;You'll look where he was, and not find him. But, the meek will inherit the lands,And find great delight in the abundance of peace.

Jesus or the Apostle never mentioned an earthly peace for all mankind. The only peace that counts is peace with God. Ones again from God’s perspective!

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 13:20 May the God of peace, who THROUGH THE BLOOD of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

There is no greater blessing than having peace with God; greater that the desire of earthly things which Christian look forward to. Do you agree! I find it sad true believers are looking into the future with the promises of God, when it is standing right in front of them.

Verses 28 and 29 of that same chapter go on to say

The righteous will always be guarded, As those without law are driven away. The seed of the Godless will perish, But, therighteous will inherit [the] lands, And camp upon it through ages of ages.'

“I think you will find it extremely satisfying when you leave the literalism behind. We for so long have been trained to think in a wooden literal way. It has done us great harm in understanding the spiritual truths of Godâ€

I believe the nations will exist on new earth for 1000 years under the rule of those raised in the first resurrection

As I mentioned to Butch according to the first resurrection it seems from Revelation 20 it takes place after the millennium.

Revelation 20:4 Isaw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.

They had not worshiped the beast orhis image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. THEY CAME TO LIFE AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.

5(The rest of thedead did not come to life until the THOUSAND YEARS WERE ENDED.) THIS IS THEFIRST RESURRECTION.

What am I missing here!

Revelation21:1-4 will take place during the millennium or after same?

My thoughts on the New Heavens and Earth, and the millennium are divert from your; however I will go along with your reasoning and say after.

 

[George Muller]

There is no life in Heaven, that's why no one has posted any Scripture saying there is.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Not only that but Paul teaches this same truth thoughout his epistle;

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The Word of God endureth forever, it cannot be challenged, these scriptures place the believer in Christ, seated with Him in heaven. Now some cannot understand how Spiritual truth works, but they cannot contend with the clear intention of these scriptures.

 

[Larry H]

There is no life in Heaven, that's why no one has posted any Scripture saying there is.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Not only that but Paul teaches this same truth thoughout his epistle;

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The Word of God endureth forever, it cannot be challenged, these scriptures place the believer in Christ, seated with Him in heaven. Now some cannot understand how Spiritual truth works, but they cannot contend with the clear intention of these scriptures.

I for one agree with you, there is no question about it. This could not be true if we were not resurrected to spiritual life. This life begins when as follows.

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has CROSSED OVER FROM DEATH TO LIFE.

25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear willlive.

We are in heavenly places because we are in Christ. These expressions are reference to prove that fact. To be entombed with the Lord is to die with Him into a new life.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.I consider once this is accepted as truth we do not need another resurrection to enter the after life.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrectionand the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?"

 

[gr8grace]

Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

heaven is a promise and a Joy for the Christian.

Of all the bible verses that prove the believer Goes to heaven, Today the proof for heavenly citizenship is that the world and religion wants to take that promise and joy away from the believer in the Church age.

Just the fact that todays trend in this world is to deny a heavenly citizenship, is more proof to me that its true.

 

[Butch5]

Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

heaven is a promise and a Joy for the Christian.

Of all the bible verses that prove the believer Goes to heaven, Today the proof for heavenly citizenship is that the world and religion wants to take that promise and joy away from the believer in the Church age.

Just the fact that todays trend in this world is to deny a heavenly citizenship, is more proof to me that its true.

Nowhere is heaven promised to the Christian. The promise is the eternal land inheritance.

 

[Butch5]

There is no life in Heaven, that's why no one has posted any Scripture saying there is.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Not only that but Paul teaches this same truth thoughout his epistle;

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The Word of God endureth forever, it cannot be challenged, these scriptures place the believer in Christ, seated with Him in heaven. Now some cannot understand how Spiritual truth works, but they cannot contend with the clear intention of these scriptures.

I for one agree with you, there is no question about it. This could not be true if we were not resurrected to spiritual life. This life begins when as follows.

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has CROSSED OVER FROM DEATH TO LIFE.

25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear willlive.

We are in heavenly places because we are in Christ. These expressions are reference to prove that fact. To be entombed with the Lord is to die with Him into a new life.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.I consider once this is accepted as truth we do not need another resurrection to enter the after life.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrectionand the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. DO YOU BELIEVE THIS?"

Hi Before Time,

What is spiritual life?

 

[Butch5]

The Pharisees ask Jesus about the Kingdom of God and when I would come in

Luke 17:20-21 Note the words of Christ answer to their question. "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst. *or among you"

In other words Jesus said that it was not something to be observed, "here it is or there it is" It is the same ways we see Christians today, as they look for the kingdom, no different than the Pharisees. You see Butch if the kingdom was something observable than everyone would believe.

There is only one scripture in the New Testament that describes the kingdom of God

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

We would expect Jesus to answer that way. The Kingdom of God does to have a geographical border so one cannot say it is over there. He said the kingdom was in their midst. He was in their midst and He’s the king. There’s nothing here stating that the kingdom is in Heaven.

　

I think we both agree Christ is sitting on the right of His Father in heaven, and this is where Paul wanted to be. Unless one believes Christ is not in the heavenly realm.

2 Cor 5:6-8 'Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as weare at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.'

Paul’s expectation was to be in the heaven with the Lord. "It is an instance too the hope of heaven." I believe Heaven is the home of every Christian,and is claimed by them as such"

Philippians 1:23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remainin the body.

Why do the scripture never use the expressions, physical resurrection, resurrection of the body, or resurrected body?

This goes to my point. Nothing here states that one goes to Heaven, would you agree? You argument is by way of inference. Your argument assumes that one must be in Heaven to be in the Lords presence. However, Jesus said, where two or three are gathered together in my name I am there. David said,

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (Psa 139:7-8 KJV)


It seems from these passages that one doesn’t need to be in Heaven to be in the Lord’s presence.

You said Paul expected to be in Heaven with the Lord. I don’t think you’ll find that in Scripture. We know from his writings that Paul was looking forward to the resurrection. In 1 Cor. 15 he said,


16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1Co 15:16-18 KJV)


Paul said if Christ has not risen then those who died in Christ have perished. This is not the statement of a man who thought dead were in Heaven. If the dead were in Heaven then they would not have perished, whether Christ rose or not they would be in Heaven. He didn’t say that he said if Christ is not risen then they have perished, why? Because they are dead and if there is no resurrection they won’t be coming back, they’ve perished. If they were alive in Heaven then they would not have perished , even if Christ didn’t rise. It seems much more likely that Paul was not expecting to be in Heaven but rather resurrected at the Lords coming.

Butch can you point one out where Jesus or the Apostles mention men living on planet earth forever

Jesus, quoting Psalm 37 said, "the meek shall inherit the earth".


KJV Psalm 37:1 <A Psalm of David.> Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb
3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
21 The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.
27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him. (Psa 37:1-40 KJV)

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. (Isa 65:18-19 KJV)

　

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Rev 21:2-3 KJV)

Notice John says that New Jerusalem comes "out of" Heaven and that God will dwell with men.

Do you believethe New Heavens and Earth mentioned in

Revelation 21:1-4 will take place during the millennium or after same? It seems the first resurrection takes place after the millennium.

Revelation 20:5 "(Therest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)This is the first resurrection" So how is it possible for the first resurrection believer to rule over the nations during the 1000 year reign if they come to life following it? Can you see what I am getting at!

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev 20:4-5 KJV)

Verse 4 describes the first resurrection. Then John says the rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were finished. The rest of the dead cannot be the first resurrection otherwise they would not be the rest they would be the first. The fact that they are called the rest indicates that there are other before them.

　

 

[Larry H]

Hi BeforeTime,

Hi Butch

What is spirituallife?

Just like the term trinity or rapture is not used in scriptures; so it is with spiritual life. What Adam suffered in the Garden of Eden when he ate the forbidden fruit was spiritual death. I use the term spiritual dead in place of the expression “separation from God”

“Adam and Eve died spiritually because they were cast out of the presence of God.” So the death I am referring to is separation, not annihilation.

Spiritual life is restoration through our Lord Jesus that gives us peace with God. This is not a worldly peace, paradise on earth, the New Testament speaks about. It is something much greater, spiritual life. In short this life is in the eyes of God. There is no complicated theology here; I believe all true Christians would agree with this effortless analogy. Do you concur!

Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have PEACE WITH GOD through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, PEACE and joy in the Holy Spirit,

If this is not clear there is more to the story concerning the resurrection and the after life. Did I answer the question or said to much on the soap box. J

BTW I read some of the link you posted. Did you know Butch that Irenaeus believed according to the gospels and apostolic tradition, Jesus was in his fifties when he died?

 

[John 8:32]

Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

heaven is a promise and a Joy for the Christian.

Of all the bible verses that prove the believer Goes to heaven, Today the proof for heavenly citizenship is that the world and religion wants to take that promise and joy away from the believer in the Church age.

Just the fact that todays trend in this world is to deny a heavenly citizenship, is more proof to me that its true.

Nowhere is heaven promised to the Christian. The promise is the eternal land inheritance.

When protestants sing "Standing on the Promises", what promises are they standing on? The promises to Abraham? Their were two promises, the birthright and the Sceptre. Abraham was promised physical blessings...

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Gen 17:15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
Gen 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

And just what covenant was this?

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

And here is where the promises became unconditional...

Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Why? Because Abraham obeyed God. The promises become twofold here, national blessings and in verse 18 spiritual blessings...

Gen 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Gen 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
Gen 49:12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

See any veiled promise of the Messiah here in this prophecy? As far as the birthright, notice the blessings given to the other tribes, especially Joseph. Now back a chapter...

Gen 48:8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these?
Gen 48:9 And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.

Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
Gen 48:21 And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
Gen 48:22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.

So Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, received a portion more than the rest of sons. Also, in verse 16, notice that the name Israel was to be named on Ephraim and Manasseh, not on Judah. Judah is the tribe of the Jews, Israel is composed of Ephraim and Manasseh. Ever notice that quite often Judah and Israel are mentioned separately?

1Ki_12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

First time in the Bible the word Jew is used...

2Ki 16:1 In the seventeenth year of Pekah the son of Remaliah Ahaz the son of Jotham king of Judah began to reign.
2Ki 16:2 Twenty years old was Ahaz when he began to reign, and reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem, and did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD his God, like David his father.
2Ki 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.
2Ki 16:4 And he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places, and on the hills, and under every green tree.
2Ki 16:5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.

Ahaz was the king of Judah.

2Ki 16:6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.
2Ki 16:7 So Ahaz sent messengers to Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, saying, I am thy servant and thy son: come up, and save me out of the hand of the king of Syria, and out of the hand of the king of Israel, which rise up against me.

Now, notice the context, Israel is at war with the Jews.

The promises were separated, Judah received the blessing of the Sceptre, the Messiah would come through him but the majority of the promises were given to Joseph and Joseph was to carry the name of Israel. Both of these promises are tied to and fulfilled on the earth.