[_ Old Earth _] Christianity in Science?

[Pizza]

This thread is discuss how Christianity is related to process of doing science.

1. Does the Bible reveal scientific truth?
2. How is Jesus related to science?
3. Can God be seen through the lens of science, if so how?

These are just some examples on how the conversation could unfold.

1. In general, no. That is not its intent, it is not an owner's manual for the creation, it is more an owner's manual for our lives.
Now, having said that, there ARE some verses that are scientifically true: Job 26:7 "... He hangs the earth on nothing."

2. I don't understand the question.

3. Oh, yes! When I look into the vast expanse of space (either in the night sky or in science-based texts) I sure see His handiwork. And I also see Him in the fact of how incomprehensible the known, physical universe is. Have you ever considered that the universe and creation are almost as infinite as HE is??? I, for the most part, believe the universe is BILLIONS of years old. I think that this testifies to His "infinitness". Over the past 100 or so generations, we have learned that the universe is just so much bigger than what ancient people believed. Would God really create a little, young, easily understood universe?

What makes us think we can understand it all? I can conceptualize 6,000 years. But I can't grasp 4 billion years.
And I can't grasp our God.

 

[Sinthesis]

It can't be. Science is intrinsically limited to the physical universe. By its very methodology, it is unable to investigate God.

Can an accurate appreciation for an artistic creation reveal something about The Artist?

 

[Pizza]

Can an accurate appreciation for an artistic creation reveal something about The Artist?

I know you directed your question at Barb. But that is EXACTLY what my post was meant to infer.

So, yes.

 

[Barbarian]

Can an accurate appreciation for an artistic creation reveal something about The Artist?

Science can't reach God. But scientists can. That's how it is. Science is too weak a method to support faith. Faith is sufficient of itself.

 

[Paloma]

It can't be. Science is intrinsically limited to the physical universe. By its very methodology, it is unable to investigate God.

I respectfully disagree. Science, (as defined below) can investigate God. By studying his handy work, he leaves clues to his nature and his love for us all. He also leaves other clues to the re-birth mentioned in scripture. The universe itself is patterned after a Triune God.

For example, this book:
http://www.amazon.ca/Trinity-Universe-Nathan-Ph-D-Wood/dp/0825440181 makes a compelling and amazing case for the Triune nature of everything we know.

The Universe is compsed of 3 things: TIME, MATTER and SPACE and each of these three things are comprised of 3 things.

Time = Past / Present / Future
Matter = Energy / Energy in Motion / Energy in motion creates the phenomena of matter.
Space = Length / Width / Height

Man is also made of 3 things- Mind, Body and Soul.

So, here we have an example of "science" confirming what the Bible describes -a trinune God. He left his fingerprint everywhere. If God where there, we would expect to see this, and we do.

Take the monarch butterfly, she begins as a ugly caterpillar, "dies" to the "old life" and is "reborn" a "beautiful butterfly". Seeds must "die" before they can give rise to the beautiful plant.

Clues everywhere that we see using "science"...

I agree we can't use "science" to 'pin a tale on God' and say "see? proof" but science does have a role in investigating God. It has to. If God created science then science should reflect God, and it does!


sci·ence
ˈsīəns/
noun

1. the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
   "the world of science and technology"
   
   Peace

 

[Sinthesis]

Science can't reach God. But scientists can. That's how it is. Science is too weak a method to support faith. Faith is sufficient of itself.

I agree that science can't reach God, and that scientists can. However, a weak faith will search out support from all kinds of sources; from science, to pseudoscience, to superstition.

 

[Paloma]

Science can't reach God. But scientists can. That's how it is. Science is too weak a method to support faith. Faith is sufficient of itself.

Are you serious barbarian? "Science is too weak a method to support faith".

I've never in my life read such a statement. Science confirms the existance of God on so many levels that it hardly requires a response. Science has given me and countless Christians such comfort and incredible faith. I feel really bad for you if you really feel this.

Take just the human cell that science studies. You of all people should see the complexity and amazing finger print of God in a simple cell. That's science. And that's Gods finger print.

God gave us "science" to strengthen our faith and it does! These complex cells just don't pop out of nowhere, this conclusion thus points to a Creator.

 

[Barbarian]

One might as well say plumbing can find God. When I feel that epiphany in His creation, it is not my understanding of the physics or the biology, but the beauty and order of it that strikes me. Knowing more about the details merely lets me see more of the beauty.

No theory will lead you to God. Only God will do that.

 

[Barbarian]

Are you serious barbarian? "Science is too weak a method to support faith".

Absolutely. Science is a wonderful thing. But it's not the way to God.

 

[Paloma]

Absolutely. Science is a wonderful thing. But it's not the way to God.

I never said it was the "way" to God per say...however, for many, studying the physical world, (science) has lead many (including me) to seek him deeper as now I see his fingerprints everywhere. So in a way, yes, science did led me to Him. Just as Romans describes....

...because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.…Romans 1

Science confirms his existence, (amazing design) it supports the Bibles statements, (fossils) it helps strengthen a believers faith (Romans 1) that He is real and there and listening. Science is a wonderful gift from God meant to draw us near Him...

 

[Paloma]

One might as well say plumbing can find God. When I feel that epiphany in His creation, it is not my understanding of the physics or the biology, but the beauty and order of it that strikes me. Knowing more about the details merely lets me see more of the beauty.

No theory will lead you to God. Only God will do that.

I could use "plumbing" to show someone that God is there....that one is real easy and a great idea, thanks!

 

[Paloma]

Do you see this amazingly complex plumbing system under the sink in this picture?

Notice how the ABS is glued together with a special yellow glue that will only work on black ABS piping? Notice the gentle slope, allowing the water to drain towards the main drain? Notice the P-trap that traps a plug of water so the stinky sewer gases cannot flow back up and cause a stink in the house? Notice how it has been perfectly cut and fit together like a puzzle? Notice how the whole system works together for the sink to function in a home for the occupants to use?

Now what would you think if I told you this entire complex system just formed itself, slowly over time. That would be silly. In order for it to work at all as required, it needed to be fully assembled and ready to go, otherwise the sink would drain water on the floor and be useless.

Would it not be more logical to assume that this plumbing system had a master plumber design and build it?

I think so.

...So coming full circle, if this simple plumbing job required a master plumber, how can one ever conceive that the human cell or eye or hand could just have "happened" out of thin air?

A master design requires a master designer, --God!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

edited

We were having a discussion and then you go and pull this one again.

I gave you my reasoning on the matter, and you dismiss it without actually addressing it and then wish me "luck."

Do you actually want to talk about this and have a serious discussion?


Edited out deleted post.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Do you see this amazingly complex plumbing system under the sink in this picture?

Notice how the ABS is glued together with a special yellow glue that will only work on black ABS piping? Notice the gentle slope, allowing the water to drain towards the main drain? Notice the P-trap that traps a plug of water so the stinky sewer gases cannot flow back up and cause a stink in the house? Notice how it has been perfectly cut and fit together like a puzzle? Notice how the whole system works together for the sink to function in a home for the occupants to use?

Now what would you think if I told you this entire complex system just formed itself, slowly over time. That would be silly. In order for it to work at all as required, it needed to be fully assembled and ready to go, otherwise the sink would drain water on the floor and be useless.

Would it not be more logical to assume that this plumbing system had a master plumber design and build it?

I think so.

...So coming full circle, if this simple plumbing job required a master plumber, how can one ever conceive that the human cell or eye or hand could just have "happened" out of thin air?

A master design requires a master designer, --God!

We know the plumbing system was designed by man, because we have seen that. This is different than biology as you have the capacity for the introduction of new traits and function within their genetic makeup.

The reason why the design argument is so weak is that it must appeal to mystery when really there are great natural explanations. "Look how complex this is, it must have been designed." Is not a scientific hypothesis, it is the end of science. It is the assertion of an assumed conclusion when one stops looking or doesn't want to look for natural explanations.

This is why religious dogma has little place in doing the actual science, it is short on evidence and big on conclusions.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We were having a discussion and then you go and pull this one again.

I gave you my reasoning on the matter, and you dismiss it without actually addressing it and then wish me "luck."

Do you actually want to talk about this and have a serious discussion?

Doulos, I'm going to be a good boy.
It's the Christian thing to do.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

1. In general, no. That is not its intent, it is not an owner's manual for the creation, it is more an owner's manual for our lives.
Now, having said that, there ARE some verses that are scientifically true: Job 26:7 "... He hangs the earth on nothing."

2. I don't understand the question.

3. Oh, yes! When I look into the vast expanse of space (either in the night sky or in science-based texts) I sure see His handiwork. And I also see Him in the fact of how incomprehensible the known, physical universe is. Have you ever considered that the universe and creation are almost as infinite as HE is??? I, for the most part, believe the universe is BILLIONS of years old. I think that this testifies to His "infinitness". Over the past 100 or so generations, we have learned that the universe is just so much bigger than what ancient people believed. Would God really create a little, young, easily understood universe?

What makes us think we can understand it all? I can conceptualize 6,000 years. But I can't grasp 4 billion years.
And I can't grasp our God.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

The main purpose of this thread is to try and spell out the difficulties of talking about Christianity and Science at the same time.

It's one thing to say, "I see God's beauty in the universe," and another to say "God is the reason behind X natural phenomenon."

I don't think stars are formed because God is fusing atoms together, I think stars are formed because the atoms are behaving as God intended when met with extreme gravity.

The difference is that God answers questions of the "why," while it seems clear that science is much better at answering the "how," questions.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Doulos, I'm going to be a good boy.
It's the Christian thing to do.

That's nice, but could you please address the substance of my reasoning rather than just dismissing it?

I would like to have a discussion as you said you wanted to, about how Christianity and Science relate.

 

[brother Paul]

I think we all see design...the question always begs where is the origin of the design. One group says the origin is intelligent and in that camp there are two views, one who sees no natural explanations allowed and the other who sees them as the way the design comes about. Likewise I see in the naturalist camp those who strive adamantly to deny design in nature all together and those who see design as a matter of natural development. The two latter camps IMHO are much closer to each other and to the truth than either wants to admit.

But I have wondered about the origin of the laws of physics and chemistry? There are in the universe 117 different elements, each with its own properties as a solid, liquid or gas. There are also forms of energy, some I am sure we have not even discovered yet. There is in addition the dimension of and effect of time. It may be said that all forms of matter and energy are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry, which govern their formation, their structure, and their behavior.

For example, the rules governing the number of electrons in each electron cloud (no matter what model we assume), determine the properties of these elements and their ability to combine with other elements to form compounds. As I see it, the lawfulness governing these factors had to exist before any complex atoms manifesting those behaviors had ever come into existence. It simply cannot be said with any scientific credence that the laws somehow “evolved” simultaneously with the “evolution” of the material structures that demonstrates those laws, because (also IMO) the changes and processes producing the results could not have taken place if those laws and guiding principles were not already imposing their effect on the matter/energy to begin with. The highly specific laws of electron valence are inherent everywhere in the universe that we can detect. IMHO laws do not create themselves for they would already have to be there to do so and again IMHO this idea that they do is scientifically (as well as logically) absurd and irrational.

The laws that govern the formation of the complex elements and compounds must pre-exist and govern even the formation of those elements and compounds. So where or how did those laws exist prior to the existence of elements and compounds? They are non-material in nature thus clearly demonstrating that the non-material reality precedes and effectually shapes the material reality.

Thoughts?

 

[Barbarian]

Everything in the world leads to God, if you know Him. Otherwise, it can lead you away from Him. What is different about the plumbing of an atheistic plumber, compared to the plumbing of a theistic plumber?

If they are both competent plumbers, nothing at all.

There is no difference between the science of a theistic scientist and that of an atheistic scientist. The methodology is the same. They may draw different metaphysical conclusions from it, but metaphysics is not something science can help you understand.

There is no theistic science, no atheistic science. Science cannot in any way address the issue of the supernatural. Methodologically, it's just not able to do that.

 

[Pizza]

Doulos, I'm going to be a good boy.
It's the Christian thing to do.

Then delete post 32.
I'm not a mod in here, but you called into question someone's walk with the Lord -that is a TOS violation as well as NOT a Christian thing to say.