Christianity & Pacifism

[Potluck]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

If the pacifism you wish to uphold was taught by Christ then Christianity would have been wiped out long ago.
If followers from the very beginning believed as you teach Drew there would be no followers.

It's on that basis that I search for another answer rather than pure pacifism. I along with many have found that answer, the answer or answers you so adamantly refuse. Therefore it's the basis that form my beliefs concerning pacifism which is again:

If pacifism was taught and followed Christianity would have been wiped out long ago.

Without any proof on your part to the contrary that basis still stands. The evidence is simple. Christianity survives to this day. And if you can't accept that basis much less prove pacifism can survive in a world hostile to Christianity then I don't need to go any further. It would quite useless.

 

[Davies]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

Hi Drew,

I know you're done with me, but I would like to reiterate what TND said earlier if I remember correctly. We have the Old Testament as an example that God is not a pacifist. Jesus is one with the Father. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. How would you explain the taking of Canaan, the promised land? Even if you say, 'That was Old Testament, we have a New Covenant,' isn't Jesus going to come back and slay His enemies with the sword of His mouth?
Revelation 19:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[a] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This doesn't sound like someone who is a pacifist. If we belong to Jesus, and be transformed into His image, completed on the day of our earthly death, we will be one with God. We will be right there with God. We will not be pacifists either.

This could be a reason why Christians are mostly Republicans.

- Davies

 

[Drew]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

I expected that any and all argument against your case would be refused as valid, the evidence tossed aside as no consequence at all and your insistence on a few selected verses without much attention if any at all of other verses that may collide with your interpretation.

Please do not misrepresent the truth. You know full well that I have been engaging
the texts that you and others have been setting forward.

Your challenge is yours alone, not mine. You can throw down the gauntlet all day long but that doesn't mean I have to pick it up.

True, but I suggest this greatly damages the position you claim to be defending.

Let's be clear: I have repeatedly - in this and other threads - made the John 18:36 argument, and no one seriously deals with the argument. So what would a reasonably objective reader conclude? They would conclude that the argument is sound.

And it is sound, therefore I can understand why you (and others) don't deal with it. Given that Jesus says His followers are not fighting in virtue of some fundamental characteristic of the Kingdom He is initiating, I cannot see how Jesus' intended message is not clear: His obedient followers are citizens of a kingdom where force is not used, even to rescue the innocent. A challenging teaching, but it is what it is.

 

[Drew]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

I might add though that there is a distinction made between government and the individual. And love does not mean I'm compelled to accept the sins of another.

What is the nature of this distinction? Are you saying its OK to kill as part of a collective (read: government), but not to kill as an individual? Well what does Jesus say about the actions of the followers of His kingdom:

My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm

So much for the "individual" vs "government" distinction: In Jesus kingdom (i.e. under His governance), force is not used.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

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You are simply making a statement here, with no actual case to support it. You state that I project something onto Jesus that I think He ought to have said. But how do you know this?

The proof of my statement is in your response, in which you fail to deal with the rest of the post. Cherry-picking the first paragraph to pan it without addressing the meat of the post in which I defend the opening paragraph is the sign of someone who knows he can't argue the point. Your subsequent one-liner posts equally fail to address my points.

Funny thing is when you look at his record his policies are almost exactly the same as Obama's policies. So you are pretty much just saying that you want an Obama that is more aggressive. Hey if that is what you want, you can have it.

I haven't addressed that "issue" because it is nonexistent. Romney's plans and Obama's are light years apart. Romney's plan are proven. They worked throughout the Reagan years, and jump-started a barely breathing economy. Obama's policies are the same failed policies of Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton. All they do is kill jobs and create inflation and government debt. You can claim all you want that they are identical, but a side by side comparison proves you wrong.

 

[Potluck]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

The fact remains.
Pacifism cannot survive without protection. Christianity would have been wiped out long ago.

The resistance against violence I'll agree with. Diplomacy should be the focus front and center. Nobody wants a war. And I'm absolutely opposed to aggression. But by definition pacifism is not self-protecting. Never was and never will be. Pacifism depends on others to defend them so they may survive. I have no problem with that. If you want to believe/practice pacifism that's fine by me but don't put down those that guarantee you the environment in which you can practice your belief.

 

[Free]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

Hi Drew,

I know you're done with me, but I would like to reiterate what TND said earlier if I remember correctly. We have the Old Testament as an example that God is not a pacifist. Jesus is one with the Father. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. How would you explain the taking of Canaan, the promised land? Even if you say, 'That was Old Testament, we have a New Covenant,' isn't Jesus going to come back and slay His enemies with the sword of His mouth?
Revelation 19:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[a] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This doesn't sound like someone who is a pacifist. If we belong to Jesus, and be transformed into His image, completed on the day of our earthly death, we will be one with God. We will be right there with God. We will not be pacifists either.

This could be a reason why Christians are mostly Republicans.

- Davies

While I would agree that God permitted and commanded use of the sword in the OT as a means of judgement, and that Jesus will return in judgement, the example Jesus gave us and all that he taught regarding how those who claimed to be his followers were to act towards others, is that of pacifism or near pacifism.

My point is, just because God used violence in judgement in the OT and it appears that Jesus will come and use violence in judgement (we should be careful in what we believe where apocalyptic language is used), it in no way whatsoever does away with what Jesus and the Apostles taught and lived out.

 

[Drew]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

Christian pacifism survives only if there is a strong military defense against those who are bent on eradicating Christianity. You'll find no Christian pacifists ,or Amish, in Iran or many other radical Muslim countries.

Well, I am not going to simply to take your word that there are no Christian pacifists in such countries. But even if there aren't how does that change these words;

My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm

Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword

Christ did not teach self-eradication.

Christ certainly did teach that we are to take up our crosses and be willing to sacrifice our very lives for His kingdom principles.

 

[Drew]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

The fact remains.
Pacifism cannot survive without protection. Christianity would have been wiped out long ago.

This is pure speculation. How can you know that Christianity would have been wiped out.

And, in fact, I believe the historical evidence is against you on this. I believe that for the first 2 or 3 hundred years, Christians were basically pacifists (e.g. up until Augustine and his "just war" theory).

And the church survived.

But by definition pacifism is not self-protecting. Never was and never will be.

True, but where do you get the impression that self-preservation trumps all other considerations.

Is that how Jesus thought? Apparently not.

Is that how Jesus instructed us to act? Clearly not.

 

[Drew]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

By the way, by defending the position I am defending, I am not intending to suggest that I can guarantee that I would live up to the pacifist calling in all cases. But that's another issue.

 

[Potluck]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

"how does that change these words;"

It doesn't and we both know that. Those words must be reconciled with other verses as have been pointed out throughout this thread by those attempting to show you. But you refuse to listen opting to choose but a few verses that support your argument. You challenge others to refute your selected sanctuary all the while refusing other verses posted.

However:
I still rest on my basis Drew. If Christ taught the pacifism you preach and His followers followed the Word as you wish to surgically interpret then Christianity would have died out long ago. But Christianity is still here and still fighting against those bent on wiping out the faith.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

By the way, by defending the position I am defending, I am not intending to suggest that I can guarantee that I would live up to the pacifist calling in all cases. But that's another issue.

This thread is actually about why most Republicans are Christians. We really ought to start a new threat in "Christian Talk" about pacifism.

 

[Davies]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

While I would agree that God permitted and commanded use of the sword in the OT as a means of judgement, and that Jesus will return in judgement, the example Jesus gave us and all that he taught regarding how those who claimed to be his followers were to act towards others, is that of pacifism or near pacifism.

My point is, just because God used violence in judgement in the OT and it appears that Jesus will come and use violence in judgement (we should be careful in what we believe where apocalyptic language is used), it in no way whatsoever does away with what Jesus and the Apostles taught and lived out.

Free,

Don't forget those who serve and have served in the armed forces who were/are Christians, unless you want to say they are living a life style of sin by their service.

- Davies

 

[Free]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

Free,

Don't forget those who serve and have served in the armed forces who were/are Christians, unless you want to say they are living a life style of sin by their service.

- Davies

I won't forget them if you won't forget what Jesus and the Apostles taught and lived out.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

I won't forget them if you won't forget what Jesus and the Apostles taught and lived out.

You mean the Jesus who will return with a sword and walk across a blood soaked field of the dead, the Jesus who stormed into the Temple and overturned the tables of the moneychangers twice, and the first time used whips to drive them out, the Jesus who told His disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword? That one?

 

[Knotical]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

Not that I am thrilled about, at least to a degree, agreeing with Drew, but isn't that passage from Revelations about the sword a metaphor for Jesus' tongue?

Revelations is a tricky book to wrap your head around, which is why I tend to leave it alone, since we are basically called to always be prepared, no matter when the end occurs. We are not to obsess about end times.

 

[Free]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

You mean the Jesus who will return with a sword and walk across a blood soaked field of the dead, the Jesus who stormed into the Temple and overturned the tables of the moneychangers twice, and the first time used whips to drive them out, the Jesus who told His disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword? That one?

Yes, that's him. Context is everything, yes?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

Yes, that's him. Context is everything, yes?

Yep, and if one chooses to accept only half the context, they don't get the whole Jesus, do they?

 

[Drew]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

.. the Jesus who told His disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword? That one?

This text has been dealt with and, as always, has been ignored.

As has already been shown (and the argument is not mine alone, it is made by many others): The instruction to buy a sword is given so that, in order to fulfill prophecy as the text itself asserts, Jesus would be seen as a trouble-maker (transgressor) thereby facilitating His assest and crucifixion).

It is not any kind of legitimation of the use of force.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Re: Why are Christians mostly Republicans?

Not that I am thrilled about, at least to a degree, agreeing with Drew, but isn't that passage from Revelations about the sword a metaphor for Jesus' tongue?

Debatable. What isn't debatable is the literal image of Him riding across the battlefield wearing a blood-soaked robe.

Revelation 19 (NASB)
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Emphasis added)
​

I don't care how you look at that passage, it doesn't describe a pacifist.