Christianity & Pacifism

[jasoncran]

free, how will god then redeem the earth from sin? will he use christians who cant even stop fighting online and in person and form myraids of demonations? the same ones who also treat their own church paid employers like crap? i will NEVER again work in a paid position for a church. a former church i worked for didnt pay for overtime and the goverment forced them too do just that. they also told a black women that she couldnt clean the church but only serve food. she sued simply to be treated equally. that was in 1980, and Im the guy, amongst many and her too that they didnt pay overtime.that was in 1998.

God will have to violently remove sinners from the planet. he alludes to with the judgements given the jews in the gospel.

 

[mcgyver]

I am curious, how can the most significant event in history, an event that had and still has a profound impact on everything it touches, "simply not do"?

Well sir, simply that there is a tendency to use the cross in a dismissive sense when the question of Christian pacifism comes up; without thinking it through. If one wishes to assert that God Himself somehow changed at the cross, then state how and why. That's all I was pointing out.

Regardless, if "God does not change" in the sense that are using it, where after the cross does God once again command Christians to put other nations to the sword? Jesus says to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you," (Matt 28:19,20 ESV) but I cannot see where he says to put other nations or even one person to the sword. In fact, I cannot see anywhere in the NT where Jesus or the Apostles ever make such a command.

What I do see is, in fact, quite the opposite. I should also point out that Matt 28:20 ends with "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." What does Jesus mean by "age" and that it will come to an end?

No argument here...but then again where is a Christian prohibited the right of self-defense or defense of family...or for that matter even one's country?

God is the same yesterday, today and forever, but that in no way means that how he deals with creation must therefore never change. God is in the process of redeeming creation and a part of that process very much included judgment on the nations in the OT and the setting up of the Jews as a distinct people and nation through whom the Messiah would come. At the cross and resurrection, the Messiah inaugurated his kingdom. As a result, those who are his followers are those who are now set apart and through whom the power of God brings redemption and restoration. Nowhere are we told to do this through the sword.

True...but once again the question posed previously stands.

 

[smaller]

I've read this thread through twice now...and I've got to confess that I'm scratching my head a little bit here...

How can the following be explained if Jesus Himself is a pacifist, or even taught pacifism?

1. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever...He does not change...No variation or shadow of turning.

2. Jesus is God in the flesh...

3. God repeatedly ordered His people to put other nations to the sword. In fact the very first thing God ordered His people to do after entering the promised land was to take Jericho. Can't say that God is a pacifist...

There are many observations that can be gleaned from Gods FACTUAL violence.

Is it a fact? Uh, yes, quite.

God is always in tolerance and patience mode, but only to a certain extent. When the violence of men get's out of hand, there is always retributions of some sort.

God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that he also reaps and reaps so from the Hands of God.

It does not bother God one whit to take life. Not a bit. Look to His Own Son to see what fury was wrought upon Him.

So we say when we read these matters, what in the world is going on?

In many ways Israel was a 'natural' or external showing of spiritual matters.

The same Sword that was brought into them to destroy other nations eventually turned upon them as well.

Were they 'more righteous' than anyone else? No. Scripture says this about this matter:

Deuteronomy 9:4
Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land:but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

God in the people of Israel called them out from all the other nations for an abundance of external showings.

Eventually the Sword was turned upon them INTERNALLY.

The notion that believers are called to kill others is off the table. There is in fact ANOTHER SWORD that God calls for. And we are seeing THIS SWORD presently active, even within the churches themselves in all our perpetual bickering and seeking to destroy each others.

Ezekiel 38:21
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

This activity is quite active and has been quite active for a long time.

Jesus assuredly did not come to bring PEACE.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

That Sword has been delivered into this world and into all the nations.

Here is the deployment and the direction of His Sword. The enemies we are all factually engaged with have always been 'internal.'

Christians could kill every sinner that disagrees with them, and of course that is promoted every single day amongst believers who intend to burn each others alive in fire forever, but that is really just A SIGN of a very very dire INTERNAL PROBLEM of their own heart.

Our real enemies have been openly disclosed:

Eph. 6
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


These factual enemies are WITHIN. They are NOT the other guy or the other nation. They are matters we personally are engaged in WITHIN.


No one is going to be laying EYES on the devil in the OTHER GUY. We fight our own battles standing in our own two shoes. Where you stand is HOLY GROUND that God seeks to recover and to rid of ENEMIES.


And yes, He Is very very serious in this regards. To those who live by the Sword, it is US who must also DIE from that same Sword. Others will be taken captive. And they are captured already by the violent intentions that spew from their mouths, openly showing what is in them.


This activity has been constantly intensifying. And it will continue to intensify until people of God SEE their own internal condition. The 'external showings' are just a side show to the main event. And yes, there are also HUGE and ABUNDANT external signs that are being shown right now in the spiritual sense that correlate DIRECTLY to these internal conditions. But until the internal facts are seen, such will see nothing else even as the battle is heating up before their eyes until their own heart fails them for fear.

A "before the cross/after the cross" answer will simply not do, in that...well...God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Does Jesus desire peace? Of course He does...He is the Prince of Peace...

It is a Two Edged Sword. We all like to fall on the Good Edge. None like the other edge. Both are meant to swing, and swing, personally applied.

But then again it is written: The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9Does thismean then that because God desires that none perish, that none will perish? Of course not.

Let's face a fact that ALL perish from the face of the earth because of sin. We all die. It's just a question of time.

So then, did Jesus really teach pacifism (as pacifism is seemingly defined here)? Are His teachings really along the lines of: "If a man breaks into your house to rape your wife, give unto him your daughter also"? For that would the the pacifistic response...and of course that is patently absurd.

Maybe, just maybe, there is more to this than meets the eye...

IF God chooses to destroy a man's household, even his own children, He can in a heart beat as Job shows us and there is ZERO a man can do to stop that from happening.

Even if we put up the best defenses, if it is from God it will not be swayed.

We as believers should pray and NOT kill other people, period.

Isaiah 59:19
So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

God Himself also controls ALL civil authorities and governments, as vile as they often are. As believers we are 'all' subject to their authority whether we like it or not.

Certain orthodox sects allied with .gov powers and in the end became KILLERS themselves. Even burning people slowly over a roasting pit. Was that 'Christian?'

NO.

But they certainly did it and promoted it and participated in it. But NEVER did they look to themselves to see that they themselves were made KILLERS on the inside.

It's a vicious thing, this human heart. The most vile thing on the planet.

God would be totally just to stop the whole enchilada dead in it's tracks in the twinkling of an eye. But there really are greater matters of judgments that have been going on in the earth from the beginning, and God has INTENTIONS with everything that is and exists. As believers we are called to gather substance to carry on and out of this present wicked world. Those treasures come with scars and tears.

Genesis 15:14
And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Again, that was the natural showing. But there is another working also going on.

How it all plays out is only His to tell.

I do know that if believers can not live in peace with each others, that the world itself is direly affected. In this way we are probably doing a very poor job.

I also know that His Spirit can pour into our hearts and bring change to the good and to the better. And it will NOT be to the extent to burn each others alive forever in fire over jots and tittles when we are honest about our own conditions.

Isaiah 11:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


This may seem dire, but it is the course of the end, and it is INTERNAL in nature. To read with the sight of physical eyes will not capture the events as they are presently unfolding and unhinging, but they are unfolding and unhinging.

The destruction is INTERNAL and PERSONAL.

There is a certain promise to the church of Philadelphia, the church of brotherly love, and therein I seek to abide:

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

If any 'believer' gets caught up in the worldly governments and becomes a killer by consent, they will pay a price of loss. I would not say they are not saved, but they may not be happy at how they were used and abused.

Are we happy over killing? I think not. The call of Heavens Rain will be answered. Here is that RAIN:

The destruction that so many believers fear at the end will not be as is commonly thought.

Jesus promised the end would be 'as' the days of Noah, and He was referring directly to this scripture:

Isaiah 54:
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

This is the path of HIS DESTRUCTION and it will surely come this way.

We should not look to the 'world' or it's governments for this solution.

Death will be destroyed BY HIS LIFE. The path to His Life is the mercy that we are given and that is to be broken and shared. It is the path of His Blessings.

Mercy.

s

 

[Potluck]

Citing rape in a hypothetical scenario like the one already posted isn't really the best scenario since rape in the household isn't well, a common occurrence you hear about very often. There are exceptions of course in that it does indeed happen.
But hostility to Christianity is much more common the world over. In the past though violence against Christianity could be measured in terms of wars to eradicate Christianity. What would have happened to Christianity if the Muslims were allowed to do what they wanted to do at the time of the Crusades? The Muslims would have slaughtered every Christian they came across or ferreted out throughout Europe and beyond. Same would have happened at every instance of violent aggression against Christianity throughout the past 2000 years. If Christ taught pacifism and every Christian practiced what Christ taught how long could Christianity have survived?
Since Christianity as taught by Christ would have been wiped out long ago, a very strong desire on the part of those hostile to the faith, then the Christianity we follow is not the Christianity taught by Christ at the beginning. Therefore the churches that claim to follow Christ are wrong. They are all wrong. Why? Because none of them teach the pacifist lessons of Christ that we become pacifistic in our faith raising no hand to our enemies.

Are the orthodox Jews correct in their claim that Jesus can't be the Messiah because he didn't deliver us from our enemies as promised?

Was Joseph Smith right in his vision that all churches or sects of Christianity of his day were wrong?

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--"This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!"

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)--and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home.

 

[Webb]

I can think of more things Smith was wrong about than right.

 

[jasoncran]

what drew and free embrace isnt taught in american churchs at large imho. its the jws, that embrace that position. they use the same arguments as the jw's.the fact they vote is something i find odd.

i can show how much force was and used to secure things that they would vote for in america. ie the civil rights movements in the south. the national guard was called in to enforce the law.

 

[Potluck]

Like I said before:
"It's easy to be a pacifist while standing behind the biggest guns the world has ever known."

 

[smaller]

Like I said before:
"It's easy to be a pacifist while standing behind the biggest guns the world has ever known."

And anyone with half a wit can also see that those controlling powers are being gradually deployed 'internally' as well.

Spiritual Principle in action once again.

s

 

[Kaliani]

Like I said before:
"It's easy to be a pacifist while standing behind the biggest guns the world has ever known."

It's easy to be an anti-pacifist while standing behind the biggest guns the world has ever known.

Too easy IMHO.

 

[Sparkey]

Didn't Paul say we are to resist sin unto the shedding of blood? (Heb 12:4) If we're supposed to be pacifists how can we follow his admonition to spill blood while resisting sin? That's one of the coolest commandments in the Bible - and although I understand that we are supposed to follow governmental authority (Rom 13:1) and not actually use knives or guns against other Christians I think it means that I'm supposed to take my bible out and BIBLE-THUMP people until they come to understand that the Kingdom of God is to be TAKEN BY FORCE (Mt 11:12). :fullauto

Oh, and I don't want anybody telling me not to yell either, because if you can't take a little ALL CAPS then certainly you won't like the holy Bible-thumping yer gonna get if you do...

In closing, my final argument is that this is indeed a Christian site. Why would we have so many emotes depicting violence if we're supposed to be pacifist? Huh?

 

[Drew]

I am sure God doesn't condemn violence that is in self-defence......

While I entirely empathize with this sentiment, I think it is at least debatable whether it is true. Remember - what seems common-sensical to us may not line up with the gospel way. Remember what Jesus told Pilate: The reason my followers are not coming to rescue from me by force from certain death is that they are citizens of a kingdom (my kingdom) where that mode of acting is simply not part of the program.

It can so easily become a self-perpetuating cycle,...

True, and I believe a case can be made that the cross is the place where such self-perpetuating violence is to come to an end.

 

[Drew]

A "before the cross/after the cross" answer will simply not do, in that...well...God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

I believe there is a flaw in your reasoning, and that such an answer is indeed correct. The problem is that to agree that God maintains the same character over time does not necessitate that He does the same things over time.

I maintain that there is a very specific reason why God ordered Israel to put all those nations to the sword. And, to be sure, God took no pleasure in ordering all those genocides. Be careful of assuming that God can "do whatever he wants": I suggest that God had no choice but to order those acts in service of the greater good of redeeming His creation. Unless and until you can rule this possibility out, you must concede that it is at least possible that "before the cross", God had to use violence, but, after the cross, He forbids its use.

Consider the oncologist who puts his patient through the pain of chemotherapy. The doctor is a good person, but he has no choice but to use this mode of therapy to cure the patient. Once the patient is cured, however, this good doctor would certainly not have any reason to inflict pain on his patient. Note how the character of the oncologist remains unchanged - he seeks the welfare of his patient. But how he treats the patient varies widely over time.

Something analogous is, I suggest, going on in the story of the old and the new covenant. People need to understand that the Bible is an evolving story of God at work in the world to redeem His creation. So it would be deeply unrealistic to the concept of the evolving narrative to insist that God must always "do the same things" over time.

 

[Drew]

So then, did Jesus really teach pacifism (as pacifism is seemingly defined here)? Are His teachings really along the lines of: "If a man breaks into your house to rape your wife, give unto him your daughter also"? For that would the the pacifistic response...and of course that is patently absurd.

That is not the pacifist response: no sane pacifist would "hand over the daughter". A person 100 % dedicated to pacifism would do all sorts of things to save his family, even if the use of force was not among them.

Let me ask you to deal with a text that others (some, at least are conveniently ignoring:

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.

Jesus' followers know He is in danger of being executed. Why are they not fighting, according to Jesus?

I suggest that Jesus tells us: it is precisely because membership in Jesus' inaugurated kingdom means that the use of force is basically off the table.

How do you read Jesus' words here? Can you give an interpretation other than the one I have given that actually takes His words seriously?

 

[Drew]

Like I said before:
"It's easy to be a pacifist while standing behind the biggest guns the world has ever known."

This is simply a faulty argument although it is used over and over again.

The fact the pacifist may indeed be a member of a country like the United States which, against clear Biblical teaching, uses at least the threat of utter violent destruction to further its interests, is entirely besides the point. The fact that the pacifist might indeed be able to "safely" express his / her view "behind the big guns" provides precisely zero evidence that such a pacifist would change his / her tune if such "guns" were not there.

And although I would prefer Mr. Obama over Mr. Romney, your current President's use of your military to "get things done" is entirely out of line with the gospel way. Do you believe that Jesus would approve of drone strikes that, at times at least, blow innocent people, including children, to bits? And lest ye think I am "bashing America", I have little doubt that my own government would (and does) use the same entirely non-gospel mode of "doing power through the barrel of a gun" as does yours.

 

[smaller]

Gods deployment of violence post Cross:

Acts 5:
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.


9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Acts 12:
21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Rev. 2:
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 

[jasoncran]

drew, if jesus wont slay his enemies who will? whom and how will sin be finnanly dealt with, will one day all sinners agaisnt their wills and without confession repent and then jesus comes?

you cant ignore that. goverment takes force and force does and must include violence even if its non lethal.

 

[Kaliani]

I'm supposed to take my bible out and BIBLE-THUMP people until they come to understand that the Kingdom of God is to be TAKEN BY FORCE

INDEED.

Let us take up arms in the form of the Bible.

Because, as Napoleon Bonaparte said, 'God fights on the side with the best artillery.'

(You Christians do generally admire Napoleon, yes? :angel3)

 

[jasoncran]

napolean isnt well like by christians. though the american law and constution has take his ideas and the army uses one of his concepts.

 

[Drew]

No argument here...but then again where is a Christian prohibited the right of self-defense or defense of family...or for that matter even one's country?

Again, at text which many seem very unwilling to engage:

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place

How is this anything other than a statement that it is in the very nature of membership in the newly inaugurated kingdom that the use of force is to be eschewed?

 

[jasoncran]

Again, at text which many seem very unwilling to engage:

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place

How is this anything other than a statement that it is in the very nature of membership in the newly inaugurated kingdom that the use of force is to be eschewed?

so then why do you vote? if the kingdom is off another nature and it is why do you expect sinners to bring it in place when they wont line up any athiest or sinners that not a pacifist will see that cant be.

one cant deal islam with appeasment it wont work, begging with hitler to stop with the murdering and taking lands wont work. mad men wont reason. even the ussr while agressive at times didnt want to die. we could reason with them and china is the same., islamic nations are different.

how you can you logically expect the christian to vote for a goverment that has no law enforcement power to ensure laws are actually followed.

ie if slavery is illegal and the slave owner doesnt want to give up how will he be made too?
if rape is illegal and the cops see it how will they stop it?vote for sinners and liars

i paraphrase alan keyes, jr

i would rather be under slave owners that submitted to God then democrats whom say the founders were racists but allow the murder of millions and deny God