Christmas, Biblically sound, or Catholic baggage?

[Imagican]

Klee shay,

I am pleased that we have been able to bring this back into it's proper perspective without the added adversity.

I agree wholeheartedly in your quote:

It is not what goes into the belly which is unclean but what comes out of the mouth. For out of the mouth comes that which lies in the heart. I may have the unclean rehashed token of a symbolic day; in which I celebrate the Lord; but because my mouth praises God how does that make me unclean?

I personally believe that this ties right in with what we've been discussing. And to take it a step further, not only what comes out of our mouths, but also, what we DO. I cannot and will not judge the intentions of others in their actions. However, the 'fruit' of ones actions need no judgement of intention.

All I have tried to do with this thread is offer the 'truth' concerning the creation and celebration of 'Christmas'. I have not intentionally offered anything that can not be proven with the slightest of efforts. Even the Catholics admit to the basics of what I have offered.

With this in mind, is there any doubt whether God inspired this creation?

And I still maintain that if you decided to 'hijack' a satanist celebration and insert Christ and God into it, that it would 'still' be a satanist celebration that was made 'even more unholy' by the addition of Their names.

Not a single one of us is capable of being totally without faults and blemishes concerning God. Our relationship does depend upon following the 'will' of God. Any and everything that we do that opposes His will becomes a stumbling block that hinders a deeper relationship. I have simply offered that Christmas may be such an obstacle to some, if not all, of those that participate in it's ritual.

And guys, even without a direct command, shouldn't we honor and celebrate Christs' death and resurrection EVERYDAY, without a 'written law'? And if Christ's birth were important enough for a day to be offered in celebration, wouldn't God or Christ or the apostles offered us such a date and wouldn't it have been celebrated by the apostles? Come on now, this isn't rocket science were dealing with here.

We are told not to judge others in their choosing of special days. That doesn't mean that what they do is either wrong or right, it simply teaches that 'we' are not to judge others. It doesn't mean that others celebrations aren't wrong or evil in intent, is simply states that we are not to judge the individuals. And we are certainly not free to do that which is wrong simply because we 'are not under the law' or a law.

The fact that the 'world' celebrates Christmas is not my concern here either. What concerns me is the possible hinderance that many may experience due to it's being held in such high esteem, (considering it's true nature). For those that have followed this thread that were already aware of Christmas' pagan roots and choose to celebrate it 'anyway', that is up to you and God. My intentions were to inform those that 'didn't' know the 'truth'.

I was raised with Christmas. I was raised to worship many things that are NOT of God. Then I didn't know any better and had NO relationship with God. As my relationship grows, much is revealed. As I am able to 'see' truth, more 'truth' is in me. The more truth that is in me, the stronger my relationship with God becomes. And I offer that this is true with EVERYONE.

I am quite sure that Christ would rather us celebrate His BEING rather than the birth which lead to the pain of suffering for ALL SIN.

Have you ever noticed how the cross has become a mockery of Christ? How those that would subvert ALL that is Christ-like wear their jewel incrusted crosses around their necks as they receive the 'praise of the world'?

I believe that Christmas offers the 'same' pain to the Lord as seeing that jeweled cross on the neck of those that live for satan and the world. Why? Because of the 'testimony' that is offered. It is an indication to those that do not yet know the Lord that one can live for this world yet still love God and His Son. What a weak and watered down testimony that is. "LOOK AT ME!!! I'm a 'Christian' that can live for and do ANYTHING". What an enticing lie that would offer to others that don't know any better. And once one accepts 'this kind' of Christianity, how would they ever find the 'truth' with such obstacles in the way of their ability to create a relationship with God?

 

[cj]

I was inviting Imagician as he invited me. Where I said; "I could say the same in reverse to you and CJ's perspective"; I was identifying those who spoke about the day not being relevant. Ergo; "perspective". As I was addressing Imagician though; I was only inviting Imagician.

Sentence structure suggests the subject were both Imagician and myself.

I think everyone here does that. An opinion is an opinion and we can debate opinions - but I think you were presumptuous to insert your opinions into my testimony. I wasn't debating the subject; I was sharing a testimony.

This is a forum, thus the content of one's speaking is open to discussion.

To you it might be a testimony, to me it might be an opportunity for correction.

Which is kind of why I took offence at your analysing my testimony; right down to what I should have said to my daughter over Christmas.

And the moment you did so (took offense) you gave yourself over to Satan's control.

Your personal beeswax is your personal beeswax; when you start telling me how to run my life though - according to "putting your stuff out there" then I think you're starting to mind my beeswax instead.

You must get very upset at God then.

My sister, you no longer have "personal beeswax",.... you lost your right to it the moment you gave your life to the Lord. Or don't you know that?

I apologised for being testy - I noticed you didn't for getting so personal. I hoped your Holy Spirit would have convicted you as mine did me.

Saying sorry is easy,... meaning it isn't.

BTW,.... there is no such thing as a mine and your's Holy Spirit.

If you feel you haven't done anything wrong then I'll leave that up to you. I'm only sharing this because your approach had a lot to do with my offence. So is it a case of the splinter or the beam?

My approach had nothing to do with you offended feelings, all my speaking did was touch your pride, and it did the rest.


In love,
cj

 

[Free]

So, we're all agreed that there is nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas. Good. Case closed. :D

 

[cj]

So, we're all agreed that there is nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas. Good. Case closed. :D

Absolutely not, just like there is nothing wrong with celebrating the buying of a new car by taking the family on a long drive in it.

Its simply the celebration of mammon.

So,... go ahead, knock yourself out.


In love,
cj

 

[Free]

How do you equate a new car with Christ?

 

[Imagican]

Here's the answer to everything offered so far.

Consider who created Christmas and why.
Take away the tradition that you were 'taught'.
Look to the Word.
And ask yourself honestly this question:

If December 25th were the actual date of Christ's birthdate, do you believe that the way in which we choose to honor it would please or displease our Savior?

 

[cj]

How do you equate a new car with Christ?

I don't, just as I don't equate Christmas with Christ.


In love,
cj

 

[Free]

If December 25th were the actual date of Christ's birthdate, do you believe that the way in which we choose to honor it would please or displease our Savior?

And what is this way that we choose to honor it? You have to define what you mean before I can answer.

I don't, just as I don't equate Christmas with Christ.

Yeah, "Christ"-mas and Christ just don't seem to have anything in common.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

CHRISTmas is a sacred time in our home. It is the day we recognize and celebrate the arrival of our Redeemer on the earth who came to take us home. What could possibly be wrong with that??

I don't give a whip if it is the actual birthdate or not. It is about the celebration and the remembrance.

If some choose to allow this day to become defiled then so be it but that does not mean that CHRISTmas is wrong.

Yeah Free, I didn't quite get how CHRISTmas can have nothing to do with CHRIST either.................. :o

 

[Free]

Yeah Free, I didn't quite get how CHRISTmas can have nothing to do with CHRIST either..................

Maybe it's the giving of gifts, getting together with family and friends, showing love...

I think the problem stems from evangelicalism and it's rejection, for the most part, of sacred time, the Christian Calender. If Evangelical Christians could only see that Christmas is far more than just one day and has a far richer meaning than is taught in these churches perhaps they souldn't be so quick to reject it. But, if some of them can't even see the Christ in CHRISTmas...

 

[Imagican]

You indicate that you are completely unaware of the changes in this holiday just in our lifetimes. Santa Clause was only introduced into this tradition a hundred years ago or less. Look how this tradition has grown in such a short period of time. Do you think that it will get better or worse?

If you will look around you, you will clearly find that the MAJORITY of those that celebrate this occasion are more interested in 'Frosty the Snowman' or 'Rudolf the Rednosed Raindeer', than Jesus' birth. Children are MOSTLY raised to expect gifts from Santa Christmas morning than with any kind of understanding of Christ. Is this getting better or worse? Does it really matter? If it has changed so much in so little time, will it not change even more?

Now, the important question. WHY? Why has this day that should be considered VERY important if it were truly celebrated in the proper respect, been so altered to the point that there are many in preference of eliminating the name of Christ from it altogether: Xmas? Is it not obvious the 'JOKE' that is being made of His name? People more concerned with material gifts than their fellow man. Going into debt to celebrate Christs' birthday? Come on man. And I wonder why the suicide rate nearly doubles during this time of the year?

And all this that I've offered doesn't even mention that this date was nothing other than offering Christ's name to a pagan celebration to begin with.

I know, I know, but we love it you say. The best holiday of the year. It's so much fun, and so 'festive'. I'm sure that's exactly what the Romans were feeling too. Hence, the reason that the pagan celebration wasn't eliminated altogether when Rome became Christianized. They simply began to celebrate it under a different name.

 

[Free]

You indicate that you are completely unaware of the changes in this holiday just in our lifetimes.

On the contrary, you indicate that aren't following what we are saying. No one is advocating celebrating Christmas in a way the world does, rather, as LD has pointed out, it is a very sacred time. It initially was about Christ and there is no reason that one cannot still make it about Him.

Now, the important question. WHY? Why has this day that should be considered VERY important if it were truly celebrated in the proper respect, been so altered to the point that there are many in preference of eliminating the name of Christ from it altogether: Xmas?

I am very surprised that you should even have to ask that question.

 

[Imagican]

I take it that you get my point then?

 

[Free]

I don't think I do.

 

[Imagican]

Imagican wrote:
Now, the important question. WHY? Why has this day that should be considered VERY important if it were truly celebrated in the proper respect, been so altered to the point that there are many in preference of eliminating the name of Christ from it altogether: Xmas?

I am very surprised that you should even have to ask that question.


But obviously you do.

 

[Free]

If you are implying that because Christmas has become so paganized that that is evidence that Christmas was never about Christ to begin with, you're wrong.

Do you believe in the egg-laying Easter Bunny Imagican? Do you celebrate Easter?

 

[cj]

CHRISTmas is a sacred time in our home. It is the day we recognize and celebrate the arrival of our Redeemer on the earth who came to take us home. What could possibly be wrong with that??

I don't give a whip if it is the actual birthdate or not. It is about the celebration and the remembrance.

If some choose to allow this day to become defiled then so be it but that does not mean that CHRISTmas is wrong.

Yeah Free, I didn't quite get how CHRISTmas can have nothing to do with CHRIST either.................. :o

I have never said that turning your heart to God is wrong.

But you would be lying if you said that the majority that "celebrate" Christmas do so with their hearts turned to God, and as a result, the entire purpose of being a Christ-follower on the earth today, in expression, is lost,.... on the lost.


I wonder, if its so wonderful a thing why not keep the lights up all year and the tree too?

Why not celebrate all 365 days as just one day?

If some choose to allow this day to become defiled then so be it but that does not mean that CHRISTmas is wrong.

See, your above statement shows that you have no clue as to the reality of the Lord's speaking concerning what enters a man not being what defiles him, but what comes out of a man.

"Christmas" is nothing. Its not biblical and it has no relevance in the matter of man's salvation.

But,.... what this "Christmas" does to a man internally most certainly works to defile the man regarding that which comes out of him.

Take a close look at what issues out of men at Christmas, and even just after.


But its understandable, in today's Christian environment where the self is served before the neighbor.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Maybe it's the giving of gifts, getting together with family and friends, showing love...

All things that non-believers do, and not "because" of Christ.

So what then, you seem to rejoice in your similarity to the world?

I think the problem stems from evangelicalism and it's rejection, for the most part, of sacred time, the Christian Calender. If Evangelical Christians could only see that Christmas is far more than just one day and has a far richer meaning than is taught in these churches perhaps they souldn't be so quick to reject it. But, if some of them can't even see the Christ in CHRISTmas...

Praise the Lord I'm not an Evangelical, or any other kind of "cal".

I just one with the Lord in His saving of me.


Throughout history Free men have sought to build altars to themselves under the pretense of it being God-centered.

Nothing has changed.


In love,
cj

 

[Imagican]

If you are implying that because Christmas has become so paganized that that is evidence that Christmas was never about Christ to begin with, you're wrong.

Do you believe in the egg-laying Easter Bunny Imagican? Do you celebrate Easter?

No, Free, I don't. In my world, everyday is a celebration of Christ and God's love for us. I do not judge others in the days that they choose to celebrate. I have simply tried to point out the pagan roots of Christmas.

But since you brought Easter into it, let's talk about that a little. I believe that Easter is little different than Christmas in it's pagan pageantry. Halloween is another one. More of the detrimental effects of the RC upon the rest of Christianity. And the scariest part is that almost all denominations have adopted these same celebrations. So much so, that many a parent are totally oblivious as to what they are 'really' teaching their children when they perpetuate these pagan festivals.

Free, I am a firm believer that upon Christ's death and resurrection, EVERYDAY became worthy of celebrating what He offered. Not with drinking and pagan symbols, but with heartfelt joy and love for one another. I feel that the celebrations and traditions offered in the days that 'Christians' choose to 'set aside' for God or Christ all but completely take away the 'holiness' of either our Father or His Son.

I am NOT saying that EVERY person on the planet ignores the purpose of these occasions. But, with each successive generation comes a more 'watered down' attitude towards the 'true' meaning of Christmas, Easter, etc....
And with this changing attitude, much of any 'true honor to God or His Son' is lost to the 'fun' and personal fulfillment.

It was many years ago that my wife and I decided, (upon conviction of the Holy Spirit), to put away that which does not honor the Lord. We separated ourselves from our carved images of beasts and dragons. We ceased the frivolous burning of incense. We stoped reading such fiction as Stephen King and the likes. And limited our watching of movies and listening to subversive music. Not because of anything other than a desire to 'let less' get in the way of our relationship with the Father. Sounds silly to many and most of our friends think that we are 'nuts'. That's ok though. We are more than willing to be 'nuts' for the Lord.

I guess that to many it really doesn't matter where these celebrations come from or who created them. And even if they did know, it wouldn't really matter to them. Just as the RC realized the detrimental effects that an elimination of 'Saturnalia' would be to the furtherance of their agenda, and decided to change it's name, so too would those of today revolt against any teachings that offered to take away their 'fun'.

I have often spoken of the 'truth' of Christmas to others that call themselves Christians. Their reply: 'So what, I dig it. It's a 'good' time of the year. I look forward to it all year long.' So, with this in mind, it is obvious that what they like or 'love' about it is not what it is 'supposed' to represent. What they love is all the 'other' to which I have referred in this thread.

They love the shopping, and eating, and the lights, and the trees, and the songs, the mistletoe, the egg nog, the pretty packages, and the thoughts of Santa bringing their gifts. But what they 'love' most of all, is the 'Party'. The festivities surrounding the season. And you know what Free, the sad part is that most are completely oblivious to the idolatry involved. They are almost completely unaware that what they love becomes their 'god/s'. And what ridiculous god's they will choose over the Creator that loves them so. And all the while 'saying' that they 'know God'.