Christmas, Biblically sound, or Catholic baggage?

[Imagican]

Klee shay,

I meant NOTHING derogatory in my statement. I was actually commending you. Obviously God is moving you to understanding that MANY will NEVER gain. That is a good thing, not bad. I simply offered that your understanding may have been meant to go 'beyond' Christmas.

So, Klee, let me ask you this:

If there were a day devoted to satan and the majority of the world celebrated this day with a massive party. How do you think that God would feel if we decided to change the name of this day to...............'Christbarmitzfa', and tried to convince everyone that from now on we are going to worship Christ's becoming a man on this date. We will continue in all the same ritual that the satanist performed in their previous celebration and perhaps even add to it, but from now on we are going to celebrate it in the name of Christ.

I know this is not a very good analogy but it's good enough to serve my purpose in trying to offer what has been done with Christmas. But, for the case at hand, how do you think that God would feel or Christ, about such a bastardization of a pagan holiday into an holy one? Not much different than worshipping idols huh? It would be something false and basically a lie wouldn't it. Who, I ask you, is the father of lies? Who is the author of confusion?

I am not offering this as argument. Please understand that each of us is offered something different in order to make the body whole. Just because you or I may NOT see something that someone else may, doesn't make ANYBODY less or more. But it can strengthen the body as a whole.

I ask you to do one thing for me and yourself. Pray about what has been offered here and see if God has something different to offer you than he has offered me. Instead of simply buying into the 'world', try the spirit of this subject and see if it's fruit comes out 'good' or 'bad'. Don't just stop with God's revelation that the tradition as we have accepted it is wrong, see if you don't receive truth that offers that the WHOLE occasion was devised to destroy the 'truth' and bring about 'false worship'.

I know that there seems to be much negativity among the members of this forum at times. But we were warned to beware. It's our job to point out to our brothers and sisters that which is revealed to us. Most of the revelations will be of LOVE, the rest will be about that which is 'false'. Our ability to warn our brothers and sisters is all that we have to offer other than our personal testimony. Much of it is quite important to developing a deeper and deeper relationship with God. You know as well as I do that we grow closer to God in jumps and spirts, leaps and bounds, however you would like to describe it, (or at least I do). My relationship with God has not been a slow gradual thing. It grows in pieces, sometimes huge pieces. And usually what determines these, 'jumps' in understanding are major revelations that offer a 'larger' understating of EVERYTHING that I know. i hope that this makes at least a 'little bit' of sense. For this is how I 'know' God. He doesn't 'speak' to me, but He certainly DOES COMMUNICATE. I offer this because rarely is this taught by man.

But Klee shay, try not to take offense so much when someone disagrees with doctrine. Once you decide that you should be offended, ones understanding ceases and then their emotions take over. This can and does often blind one to the truth simply because the way in which it was offered produced an emotional response and anger. Over-come this and I promise that your revelations will increase.

 

[Klee shay]

Sorry Imagician; I didn't mean to sound so tense with you. Also to CJ. I have no desire to cause conflict where the Lord is moving in his body. Let's try this again with my humblest apologies.

If there were a day devoted to satan and the majority of the world celebrated this day with a massive party. How do you think that God would feel if we decided to change the name of this day to...............'Christbarmitzfa', and tried to convince everyone that from now on we are going to worship Christ's becoming a man on this date. We will continue in all the same ritual that the satanist performed in their previous celebration and perhaps even add to it, but from now on we are going to celebrate it in the name of Christ.

It is not what goes into the belly which is unclean but what comes out of the mouth. For out of the mouth comes that which lies in the heart. I may have the unclean rehashed token of a symbolic day; in which I celebrate the Lord; but because my mouth praises God how does that make me unclean?

I know this is not a very good analogy but it's good enough to serve my purpose in trying to offer what has been done with Christmas. But, for the case at hand, how do you think that God would feel or Christ, about such a bastardization of a pagan holiday into an holy one? Not much different than worshipping idols huh? It would be something false and basically a lie wouldn't it. Who, I ask you, is the father of lies? Who is the author of confusion?

The Christ has died on the cross; he was resurrected and imparted the gift upon his return to the Father. This is all anyone should focus on. Anything else and we risk imparting our interpretation of religion onto God.

I am not offering this as argument. Please understand that each of us is offered something different in order to make the body whole. Just because you or I may NOT see something that someone else may, doesn't make ANYBODY less or more. But it can strengthen the body as a whole.

Yes, I am learning this more and more everyday. My husband only said to me this morning, there can be no growth without anyone else to experience it with. So ergo, I apologise if I have come across as argumentitive.

I ask you to do one thing for me and yourself. Pray about what has been offered here and see if God has something different to offer you than he has offered me. Instead of simply buying into the 'world', try the spirit of this subject and see if it's fruit comes out 'good' or 'bad'. Don't just stop with God's revelation that the tradition as we have accepted it is wrong, see if you don't receive truth that offers that the WHOLE occasion was devised to destroy the 'truth' and bring about 'false worship'.

From the moment he inspired me, my perception of Christmas has changed. I am only a fool for the Lord though; so if I seem ignorant right now to anything praise God for his timing and not yours. For there is more to experience before the Kingdom comes; and we are all fools in our pardise here.

But whole life is about false worship; not any significant day. We accept no righteousness except it be by God.

Agreed. But I do not worship the day I worship God.

I know that there seems to be much negativity among the members of this forum at times. But we were warned to beware. It's our job to point out to our brothers and sisters that which is revealed to us. Most of the revelations will be of LOVE, the rest will be about that which is 'false'. Our ability to warn our brothers and sisters is all that we have to offer other than our personal testimony.

How God inspires is for him to decide. We don't debate with God we merley obey him. We do however debate with other Christians whether God was really behind the inspiration or not.

But Klee shay, try not to take offense so much when someone disagrees with doctrine. Once you decide that you should be offended, ones understanding ceases and then their emotions take over. This can and does often blind one to the truth simply because the way in which it was offered produced an emotional response and anger. Over-come this and I promise that your revelations will increase.

I could say the same in reverse to you and CJ's perspective. Overcome your biased understanding of this day and I promise your revelations will increase also. I am not being sarcastic either. I'm inviting you do to as you've invited me to do also. :wink:

 

[cj]

Is there a command to celebrate His death and resurrection or should we should we be thinking twice about that one too?

Yes, actually there most certainly is.

I find it strange that you even ask this question.

Two days of the year that non-Christians are likely to enter a church and hear the gospel...how pagan...

To which my sister answers..... "I brought two of my friends to a mass, I did my part for the year."

Yes,.... how pagan is right.


I must say Free, the shallowness of your consideration is surprising.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Sorry Imagician; I didn't mean to sound so tense with you. Also to CJ. I have no desire to cause conflict where the Lord is moving in his body. Let's try this again with my humblest apologies.

I noticed you were getting a little testy so I simply withdrew so as not to cause any further stumbling.

I appreciate your turn.


With the exception of the following....

I could say the same in reverse to you and CJ's perspective. Overcome your biased understanding of this day and I promise your revelations will increase also. I am not being sarcastic either. I'm inviting you do to as you've invited me to do also. :wink:

See KleeShay, I never invited you to do anything, so pretty much your words about me are not so true.


I'm only putting stuff out there for you or anyone to read an consider according to your own desires. I'm not here to invite you to do anything as for all I know I could be as wrong as sin in what I'm doing.

But then again I might be absolutely righteous.

Only the Lord knows.

And the Lord is in you.

So check with Him, not with me. See, its His wedding feast.


In love,
cj

 

[Georges]

Is there a command to celebrate His death and resurrection or should we should we be thinking twice about that one too?

Yes, actually there most certainly is.

I agree, it is commanded that we should observe Passover, Hag HaMotzah, and Bikkurrim. The Jewish Feast days that represent the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Messiah. We should observe them in remembrance of Messiah.

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Lev 23:12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.



I find it strange that you even ask this question.

Two days of the year that non-Christians are likely to enter a church and hear the gospel...how pagan...

To which my sister answers..... "I brought two of my friends to a mass, I did my part for the year."

Yes,.... how pagan is right.


I must say Free, the shallowness of your consideration is surprising.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Is there a command to celebrate His death and resurrection or should we should we be thinking twice about that one too?

Yes, actually there most certainly is.

I agree, it is commanded that we should observe Passover, Hag HaMotzah, and Bikkurrim. The Jewish Feast days that represent the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Messiah. We should observe them in remembrance of Messiah.

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Lev 23:12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

You're funny Georges,... and complicated.


Being born-again is the reality of everything you wrote above.


Georges, Christ is the reality of all the offerings. He is even the temple and the altar, and even the ground on which they stand.


The command to celebrate His death and resurrection is the command to believe and be saved.


In love,
cj

 

[Georges]

Is there a command to celebrate His death and resurrection or should we should we be thinking twice about that one too?

Yes, actually there most certainly is.

I agree, it is commanded that we should observe Passover, Hag HaMotzah, and Bikkurrim. The Jewish Feast days that represent the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Messiah. We should observe them in remembrance of Messiah.

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Lev 23:12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

You're funny Georges,... and complicated.

Nah....I'm not complicated.....Just been over and over and over the Jewish roots time and again trying to see weekness in the Jewish roots intrepretation....once you been over it so many times you get to recognize patterns in the Bible and the interpretation becomes like clockwork.

Being born-again is the reality of everything you wrote above.


Georges, Christ is the reality of all the offerings. He is even the temple and the altar, and even the ground on which they stand.

Don't know if he is the Temple or Altar, but the High Priest...absolutely.

The command to celebrate His death and resurrection is the command to believe and be saved.

and sets up "in the other feast days" the timing of his return....

In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

Don't know if he is the Temple or Altar, but the High Priest...absolutely.

Oh, He's the Temple alright...

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

;-)

The command to celebrate His death and resurrection is the command to believe and be saved.

Where is this command you speak of, cj?

 

[Scott]

Is there a command to celebrate His death and resurrection or should we should we be thinking twice about that one too?

This is not a command a but 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 is an example of a memorial of His death and resurrection with no dates attached.

 

[Klee shay]

[quote:236f4]I could say the same in reverse to you and CJ's perspective. Overcome your biased understanding of this day and I promise your revelations will increase also. I am not being sarcastic either. I'm inviting you do to as you've invited me to do also.

See KleeShay, I never invited you to do anything, so pretty much your words about me are not so true.[/quote:236f4]

I was inviting Imagician as he invited me. Where I said; "I could say the same in reverse to you and CJ's perspective"; I was identifying those who spoke about the day not being relevant. Ergo; "perspective". As I was addressing Imagician though; I was only inviting Imagician.

I'm only putting stuff out there for you or anyone to read an consider according to your own desires.

I think everyone here does that. An opinion is an opinion and we can debate opinions - but I think you were presumptuous to insert your opinions into my testimony. I wasn't debating the subject; I was sharing a testimony.

Which is kind of why I took offence at your analysing my testimony; right down to what I should have said to my daughter over Christmas. Your personal beeswax is your personal beeswax; when you start telling me how to run my life though - according to "putting your stuff out there" then I think you're starting to mind my beeswax instead.

I apologised for being testy - I noticed you didn't for getting so personal. I hoped your Holy Spirit would have convicted you as mine did me.

If you feel you haven't done anything wrong then I'll leave that up to you. I'm only sharing this because your approach had a lot to do with my offence. So is it a case of the splinter or the beam?

 

[Imagican]

Klee shay,

I am pleased that we have been able to bring this back into it's proper perspective without the added adversity.

I agree wholeheartedly in your quote:

It is not what goes into the belly which is unclean but what comes out of the mouth. For out of the mouth comes that which lies in the heart. I may have the unclean rehashed token of a symbolic day; in which I celebrate the Lord; but because my mouth praises God how does that make me unclean?

I personally believe that this ties right in with what we've been discussing. And to take it a step further, not only what comes out of our mouths, but also, what we DO. I cannot and will not judge the intentions of others in their actions. However, the 'fruit' of ones actions need no judgement of intention.

All I have tried to do with this thread is offer the 'truth' concerning the creation and celebration of 'Christmas'. I have not intentionally offered anything that can not be proven with the slightest of efforts. Even the Catholics admit to the basics of what I have offered.

With this in mind, is there any doubt whether God inspired this creation?

And I still maintain that if you decided to 'hijack' a satanist celebration and insert Christ and God into it, that it would 'still' be a satanist celebration that was made 'even more unholy' by the addition of Their names.

Not a single one of us is capable of being totally without faults and blemishes concerning God. Our relationship does depend upon following the 'will' of God. Any and everything that we do that opposes His will becomes a stumbling block that hinders a deeper relationship. I have simply offered that Christmas may be such an obstacle to some, if not all, of those that participate in it's ritual.

And guys, even without a direct command, shouldn't we honor and celebrate Christs' death and resurrection EVERYDAY, without a 'written law'? And if Christ's birth were important enough for a day to be offered in celebration, wouldn't God or Christ or the apostles offered us such a date and wouldn't it have been celebrated by the apostles? Come on now, this isn't rocket science were dealing with here.

We are told not to judge others in their choosing of special days. That doesn't mean that what they do is either wrong or right, it simply teaches that 'we' are not to judge others. It doesn't mean that others celebrations aren't wrong or evil in intent, is simply states that we are not to judge the individuals. And we are certainly not free to do that which is wrong simply because we 'are not under the law' or a law.

The fact that the 'world' celebrates Christmas is not my concern here either. What concerns me is the possible hinderance that many may experience due to it's being held in such high esteem, (considering it's true nature). For those that have followed this thread that were already aware of Christmas' pagan roots and choose to celebrate it 'anyway', that is up to you and God. My intentions were to inform those that 'didn't' know the 'truth'.

I was raised with Christmas. I was raised to worship many things that are NOT of God. Then I didn't know any better and had NO relationship with God. As my relationship grows, much is revealed. As I am able to 'see' truth, more 'truth' is in me. The more truth that is in me, the stronger my relationship with God becomes. And I offer that this is true with EVERYONE.

I am quite sure that Christ would rather us celebrate His BEING rather than the birth which lead to the pain of suffering for ALL SIN.

Have you ever noticed how the cross has become a mockery of Christ? How those that would subvert ALL that is Christ-like wear their jewel incrusted crosses around their necks as they receive the 'praise of the world'? I believe that Christmas offers the 'same' pain to the Lord as seeing that jeweled cross on the neck of those that live for satan and the world. Why? Because of the 'testimony' that is offered. It is an indication to those that do not yet know the Lord that one can live for this world yet still love God and His Son. What a weak and watered down testimony that is. "LOOK AT ME!!! I'm a 'Christian' that can live for and do ANYTHING". What an enticing lie that those would offer to others that don't know any better. And once one accepts 'this kind' of Christianity, how would they ever find the 'truth' which such obstacles in the way of their ability to create a relationship with God?

 

[Imagican]

Hello

 

[Imagican]

Just testing

 

[cj]

delete by me

 

[cj]

delete by me

 

[cj]

Oh, He's the Temple alright... John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

.... yes, and the altar, and the ground.

He is the gold that makes the lampstand, the oil that fills the lampstand, and even the light that issues from it.

The essence/reality of Christ is that He is God expressed. Thus anything and everything that issues out of God, in the case of the temple everything associated with it (even its moving before Mount Zion, and Mount Zion itself), is simply Christ.

And yes, even God's wrath is Christ.

Until we see this Christ clearly we will always fall short in our understanding of who He is; John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am."

Earthly things are earthly, spiritual things are spiritual.

Where is this command you speak of, cj?

I thought about what you asked, since for me, now, from what I've come to know, the command starts in Genesis and is fulfilled in us in Revelation.

In truth, when God commands there really is no one who can respond, no one who can respond in righteousness,..... except God Himself.


The reality of creation's salvation is found in God's faithfulness to His own spoken words concerning His desire for creation. God desires and speaks, and then does what is necessary to accomplish and fulfill His spoken desire.


So, where does that leave me regarding your question, which I understand to be your asking me for a verse or series of verses?

How about,.... Psalm 46:10,... "Be still and know I am God...."


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

delete by me

 

[cj]

test

 

[cj]

delete by me

 

[cj]

delete by me