Church confusion....

[Beezer]

Hello, I am new to this forum. Although I was brought up as a Baptist in my younger years, my family really never went to church for the right reasons...and life did become a hard lesson without God in our lives to direct us. About 15 years ago I came to Him through the Bible ( I do not have a church home). Anyway, to make a long story short, I tried going to many different branches of churches in the Christian faith. One in particular, I tried to become involved with...(why is another story because there definitely was no love there).
I know that Church is important for Christians to participate in, to learn, to help, and to grow in. However, I found and still find confusion there and... "God is not the author of confusion." I want to go to a church. I want to learn and grow with other fellow worshipers. I want to help and do also within the church. However, I find many like how Christ addresses the 7 churches in the book of Revelations...and some within are warned of "the second death".
Now, I know nothing of theology and very little about Christian church history... But in looking through the Bible I find that God's people strayed and God prophesied it all from the very beginning.
He said we wanted to listen to man and not Him. He said we would be scattered and confused. He said we would be made captive and confused....He said we have a choice between blessings and cursing... and He said it would go from generation to generation until someone or something (He) would bring us back.
Examples: Jeroboam kept the House of Israel from coming unto God because he built temples on the way to Jerusalem (not of God) to keep the people in his territory. Priest and other high officials were put into place by man (kings) and not of God (good example is in Ezra and Nehemiah).
It evidently happened when Christ was angry with the money changers at the temple...
And it still happens today.
People trust and listen to man instead of having their own relationship with God.
Man falls way short unless he has Christ as the Head. Man is suppose to also be a "church".
This can also happen to a church organization if Christ is not their Head.
We should not completely put our faith in the leaders because they are also human. Yes, they may be called or chosen. They may truly have God on their heart, but we should be responsible for ourselves in knowing our God. That is what Christ did for us when the veil split into at His crucification.
There is so much confusion and fighting between the churches, dividing the House of God. "A house divided will fall"...and it tends to make those searching run as far away as possible or completely misinformed about who Christ is (if the church even knows Him).
Yes, I know that there are those that are false prophets, teachers, preachers, churches, etc. and we will know them by their fruits...
But, have we,like the House of Israel and the House of Judah (both houses children of God) become enemies. Fighting. Scattered and confused. Captive to the world and confused. Not knowing who is who? Are mixed with our real enemies and have picked up their ways and not God's...????
I think it is in Ezekiel (I may be wrong) when God says to look and tell me what you see... I see corruption. I see hate. I see the enemy within and I am greatly saddened.
Beezer

 

[cyberjosh]

I feel your pain Beezer. It can indeed be difficult to find a good Church these days, and as for the fighting and quarelling in Churches the whole book of James deals with such confusion and hypocrisy in the Church and warns them about it, as does Paul, "But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!" (Galatians 5:15). It's kind of a sad story but our previous church (a Baptist Church) that my Family attended eventually split up by a combination of not listening to the Holy Spirit's prompting in new direction in the Church for the sake of not wanting to upset the crowd and also internal strive over election of deacons in which they would not allow Godly men who were divorced to become deacons, who could have otherwise helped the Church tremendously. My Dad was a teacher and a prayer intercessor for our Church and he was very active and involved in it, but in the end he felt led to stand before the entire Church and tearfully but respectfully tell them that though he harbored no personal offense that God had told him to leave the Church. Him and few other of our leaders who were pivotal I believe in the integrity of the Church left upon God's calling and soon after many of the congregation stopped coming - in a word the Church split. But atleast there was for some the small comfort that God had not been devoid and inactive in the affair - for my Dad and other Church leaders had prayed and prayed and appealed to the pastor and the Church board time and again but to no avail. God saw that the Church was resisting His will I believe so he told many to leave. Unfortunate things like this happen. For a while we were without a Church home and I largely have trained myself with the Bible during that time but now my Dad has found a good local church to go to and I have also (I live with my grandparents for now, as long as I'm going to College) and God has seemed to bless us respectively there. But for about year or so there was no direct leading by God of which Church we needed to go to, and we just went from Church to Church seeing what they were like, and just when Dad was beginning to think there wasn't any Church that truely was up to the task of seeking God, God stepped in and opened a door. So don't dispair. Follow God, read your Bible very closely and pray and God will lead you to a body of believers eventually, for it is His will that you should have fellowship with and be edified in a body of believers.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Oh and for the record this should probably go in the Apologetics & Theology section or maybe the Discussion area. Maybe a Mod of this section can move this to one of those.

 

[handy]

Agreed and done.

Welcome, Beezer.

This is a good post, with a lot to chew on. In Apologetics, we contend for right doctrine, and I am the first to say that right doctrine is very important. But, is right doctrine more important than unity in the Body?

What are we to unify and to divide over? What is the line in the sand over which our Head, Jesus Christ will not go, and therefore we must not follow? Is it baptism? Grace vs. works? The type of music we play during worship services? The type of books that fellow in the pew next to me reads?

Or, is it who one says that Jesus is?

 

[Vic C.]

LOL : I moved it from the Debate Forum to the New Members Forum earlier.

:-D

 

[cyberjosh]

LOL I moved it from the Debate Forum to the New Members Forum earlier.

Don't shoot the middle man, I was just making a suggestion. Move it (back?) where ever you like.

I hope Beezer comes back to discuss this.

 

[Vic C.]

LOL I moved it from the Debate Forum to the New Members Forum earlier.

Don't shoot the middle man, I was just making a suggestion. Move it (back?) where ever you like.

I hope Beezer comes back to discuss this.

Haha, I only read the first paragraph and decided to move it. It can stay here, no prob.

 

[hacim]

I have come to believe that the dis-unity in the Christin Church is harming Christianity ....

I have been doing a study of Scripture, first century judaism [to understand the roots of Christian belief] and the writings of the first Christians through the first few centuries .... the disagreements [heresies] and how they were decided by the early christian communities are very interesting .... the development of the new testament scriptures and what the early christians wrote in interpretations of those scriptures ...

I have also looked at the writings of Luther, Calvin and Zwngli [early reformers] - what they believed and what they taught ....

Of one thing I am certain ... Today's teachings, the theology promolgated by most "churches' today do not resemble the earliest christian writings [without a lot of twisting] nor do they resemble the teachings and theology of the early reformers -

now one can say that this is because:

1] the world has changed and christians with it
2] CHristian leaders are smarter today then they were in centuries past
3] The early chruch was in apostasy - this raises lots of issues
4] Truth is subjective and therefore morphs over time - Big issues with this ...
5] We need to determine which of the many ''churches'' practices and believes closeest to the 'early church'

I do not believe that God is the author of confusion ... nor do I believe that faith and morality change ....

For example: communication or messaging via smoke signals [and scrolls hand delevered] versus cell phonetext messages and emails [technology] can change ....

Killing unborn children via chants, shaking rattles made of animal teeth and guords while drinking herbal teas meant to cause cramps versus RU486 Pills is evil - 2000 years ago and today - pure evil - the morality does not change, just the method

Just some of my musings and study ...... butI still think the answer can be found in returning to the roots of Christianity .... I am continuing my [journey] study

 

[Free]

3] The early chruch was in apostasy - this raises lots of issues

Define "early church" and you may have a point.

4] Truth is subjective and therefore morphs over time - Big issues with this ...

Truth is absolute, it is our perception of it that may be subjective.

 

[Righteousone]

Hello, I am new to this forum. Although I was brought up as a Baptist in my younger years, my family really never went to church for the right reasons...and life did become a hard lesson without God in our lives to direct us. About 15 years ago I came to Him through the Bible ( I do not have a church home). Anyway, to make a long story short, I tried going to many different branches of churches in the Christian faith. One in particular, I tried to become involved with...(why is another story because there definitely was no love there).
I know that Church is important for Christians to participate in, to learn, to help, and to grow in. However, I found and still find confusion there and... "God is not the author of confusion." I want to go to a church. I want to learn and grow with other fellow worshipers. I want to help and do also within the church. However, I find many like how Christ addresses the 7 churches in the book of Revelations...and some within are warned of "the second death".
Now, I know nothing of theology and very little about Christian church history... But in looking through the Bible I find that God's people strayed and God prophesied it all from the very beginning.
He said we wanted to listen to man and not Him. He said we would be scattered and confused. He said we would be made captive and confused....He said we have a choice between blessings and cursing... and He said it would go from generation to generation until someone or something (He) would bring us back.
Examples: Jeroboam kept the House of Israel from coming unto God because he built temples on the way to Jerusalem (not of God) to keep the people in his territory. Priest and other high officials were put into place by man (kings) and not of God (good example is in Ezra and Nehemiah).
It evidently happened when Christ was angry with the money changers at the temple...
And it still happens today.
People trust and listen to man instead of having their own relationship with God.
Man falls way short unless he has Christ as the Head. Man is suppose to also be a "church".
This can also happen to a church organization if Christ is not their Head.
We should not completely put our faith in the leaders because they are also human. Yes, they may be called or chosen. They may truly have God on their heart, but we should be responsible for ourselves in knowing our God. That is what Christ did for us when the veil split into at His crucification.
There is so much confusion and fighting between the churches, dividing the House of God. "A house divided will fall"...and it tends to make those searching run as far away as possible or completely misinformed about who Christ is (if the church even knows Him).
Yes, I know that there are those that are false prophets, teachers, preachers, churches, etc. and we will know them by their fruits...
But, have we,like the House of Israel and the House of Judah (both houses children of God) become enemies. Fighting. Scattered and confused. Captive to the world and confused. Not knowing who is who? Are mixed with our real enemies and have picked up their ways and not God's...????
I think it is in Ezekiel (I may be wrong) when God says to look and tell me what you see... I see corruption. I see hate. I see the enemy within and I am greatly saddened.
Beezer

I suggest you research your history of the church, particularly the first church that Jesus started. That is also in the Bible. Research the Early Church Fathers also. Then your mind will be made up.

 

[cyberjosh]

I suggest you research your history of the church, particularly the first church that Jesus started. That is also in the Bible. Research the Early Church Fathers also. Then your mind will be made up.

There is by no means anything wrong with doing that, but does one have to research Church History in order to be led by God to a local Church that they should be in?

 

[Laudate Dominum]

I suggest you research your history of the church, particularly the first church that Jesus started. That is also in the Bible. Research the Early Church Fathers also. Then your mind will be made up.

There is by no means anything wrong with doing that, but does one have to research Church History in order to be led by God to a local Church that they should be in?

Because it would seem that those who were so near to the Apostles in terms of chronology would have a better idea of what Christianity is all about, perhaps? :wink:

 

[cyberjosh]

I suggest you research your history of the church, particularly the first church that Jesus started. That is also in the Bible. Research the Early Church Fathers also. Then your mind will be made up.

There is by no means anything wrong with doing that, but does one have to research Church History in order to be led by God to a local Church that they should be in?

Because it would seem that those who were so near to the Apostles in terms of chronology would have a better idea of what Christianity is all about, perhaps? :wink:

And God doesn't? ;) God can work in any Church and turn them toward the truth regardless of denomination. Follow God's leading and you can't go wrong. That's all I wanted to point out.

 

[cyberjosh]

Oh, and also, searching for the doctrinally perfect Church will leave you ever seeking, thus another reason to trust God's leading no matter where you are at, to supply the lack in all circumstances, and to be satisfied with the Church to which He has led you.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Josh, I'm sure you've heard this before:

If you find the perfect church, don't join it. It won't be perfect anymore.

:-D

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Oh, and also, searching for the doctrinally perfect Church will leave you ever seeking, thus another reason to trust God's leading no matter where you are at, to supply the lack in all circumstances, and to be satisfied with the Church to which He has led you.

God Bless,

~Josh

I beg to differ, but that's a tale for another day :wink:

 

[cyberjosh]

If you find the perfect church, don't join it. It won't be perfect anymore.

LOL! That's a new one to me. That's good. :-D

 

[cyberjosh]

I beg to differ, but that's a tale for another day

:o I'm talking about as humanly instituted, you know that don't you? I'm not talking about the spiritual reality that we are all members of the Church as Christ's body.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

If you find the perfect church, don't join it. It won't be perfect anymore.

LOL! That's a new one to me. That's good. :-D

There's a difference between a perfect church and a doctrinally perfect Church. A person can preach all the right things but not put them into practice. The completely perfect church is in Heaven. We, however, should be able to find a church that teaches the truth, even if it falls short in practice. All the churches cannot be right, but they may in fact all be wrong. I think I've found the church Christ founded and that teacvhes God's Word. I can't force anyone else to believe as I do. There is no compulsion in faith. :wink:

 

[cyberjosh]

There's a difference between a perfect church and a doctrinally perfect Church. A person can preach all the right things but not put them into practice. The completely perfect church is in Heaven.

Then read my post right before that and you'll see I tried to clarify this (because I figured that's what you were thinking): that I was talking about as humanly instituted, not The Church. Because of course The Church is the Lord's own work.

P.S. There's like, totally got to be a shortening of your screen name I can use, because it's a pain to try to type that each time. :D Can " like call you "laud" or better yet, what's your real name? :-D