Church of Christ a cult ?

[mutzrein]

So Mut.
Tell me. Since you do not believe Jesus to be God and you do not believe the HOLY SPIRIT to be God and since you do not believe in the trinity and yet you say that you are born again, What spirit is it that indwells you?

The spirit of him who raised Christ from the dead. As the scripture says, "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Question--Is the Church of Christ being talked about The International Church of Christ, formly known as The Boston Church of Christ?

 

[Atonement]

Oscar3, I'm curious how old you are. You seem to have a problem with spelling and grammar.

Bick please refrain from personal bashing. Grammar and spelling might be an issue to some. There is no reason to ask what his age is.

 

[stovebolts]

Question--Is the Church of Christ being talked about The International Church of Christ, formly known as The Boston Church of Christ?

Great question NOC, and for clarity it deserves a response.
No, the CofC is not affiliated with the ICoC, nor are we speaking on the Disciples of Christ. (just in case somebody wanted to ask that too)

 

[Solo]

Churches of Christ: The independent Churches of Christ movement was one of several associations and denominations that developed from Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott and Barton W. Stone’s restoration movement of the early 19th century, which was designed to promote unity among Protestants. Many (but not all) Churches of Christ today, however, differ from traditional Protestant doctrine in two key areas. Many maintain that water baptism and/or other commandments (rather than salvation by grace through faith alone) are a requirement for salvation (see Baptismal regeneration, Salvation by works). Some also believe that today’s Churches of Christ are the only true churches on earth and that they can literally trace their history to the first century church in Jerusalem.

• Salvation by Grace: The doctrine and message of the gospel that eternal life is not gained by or conditioned on works but is an undeserved and free gift from God received through faith in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior who died for our sins and rose from the dead. Contrasted with salvation by works.
  
  Salvation by Works: Any doctrine that denies salvation by grace alone by teaching that eternal life is merited, earned, conditioned, or maintained through human effort, religious ritual, financial donations, obedience to laws/commandments, church membership, and/or moral behavior.
  
  Baptismal Regeneration: The belief that regeneration (i.e., the new birth), and therefore salvation or eternal life, is conditioned upon water baptism. Most groups teaching this doctrine also add that proper mode (immersion or sprinkling) and/or proper minister (one authorized by the organization) is necessary. All Christians should be baptized (Matthew 28:19). The teaching that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation, however, is considered by many evangelicals to be a heretical compromise of the biblical gospel of salvation by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-10). The extreme version of baptismal regeneration, which denies the salvation even of baptized Christians outside some particular church group, is clearly heretical. See Salvation by Works, Salvation by Grace, Gospel.

Retrieved from Watchman Fellowship’s 2001 Index of Cults and Religions at http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#SavGrace

 

[Solo]

International Churches of Christ, Kip McKean, Los Angeles, CA: Formerly called the Boston Church of Christ movement, this worldwide splinter from the traditional Churches of Christ originally developed out of the controversial "Crossroads" Church of Christ campus ministry in Gainesville, FL. Former members and critics allege mind control. Practices shepherding, teaches baptismal regeneration, and claims to be the only true church. Publishes Upside Down magazine. Aggressively recruits on college and university campuses throughout America and internationally. Profile available

• Mind Control: (Thought Reform, brainwashing) While evangelicals are lack consensus on the nature, extent or, in some cases, even existence of Mind Control, the Bible does warns against seducers, deceivers, and exploiters who employ methods that can bring about spiritual harm and/or personal abuse. The Mind Control or Thought Reform model, as for instance developed by Robert Lifton, suggests that there are specific methods of deception that can be employed by abusive spiritual leaders that may result in a diminished capacity for critical thinking and suppression of autonomy in their followers. These methods are believed to involve an intense social influence conditioning program which may include a closed system of authoritarian control, manipulative, group dynamics, a system of punishment and rewards, induced dissociation or trance induction, information control, fraud, coercion, and double binds. Depending on the number and intensity of undue influence elements, and a person's own unique susceptibilities, one may experience a pseudo personality change and marked debilitation, compliance, and servitude. The Mind Control model should not be interpreted to mean that the subject is not responsible for the consequences of his or her decisions and actions. The Mind Control theory is not justification for holding individuals against their will or for conducting forcible, involuntary deprogramming.
  
  Shepherding: Christian growth is allegedly facilitated by yielding personal freedoms to a discipler or “shepherd†who controls virtually every aspect of an individual’s life. This is a form of spiritual abuse, a manipulative distortion of true biblical discipleship that can ultimately rob individuals of their liberty and autonomy that is to be found in Christ. Used by many traditional cults, as well as by some religious organizations that are not cultic in their basic doctrine.
  
  Baptismal Regeneration:The belief that regeneration (i.e., the new birth), and therefore salvation or eternal life, is conditioned upon water baptism. Most groups teaching this doctrine also add that proper mode (immersion or sprinkling) and/or proper minister (one authorized by the organization) is necessary. All Christians should be baptized (Matthew 28:19). The teaching that baptism is a prerequisite for salvation, however, is considered by many evangelicals to be a heretical compromise of the biblical gospel of salvation by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-10). The extreme version of baptismal regeneration, which denies the salvation even of baptized Christians outside some particular church group, is clearly heretical. See Salvation by Works, Salvation by Grace, Gospel.

Retrieved from Watchman Fellowship’s 2001 Index of Cults and Religions at http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#BaptReg

 

[stovebolts]

Solo,
Round and round we go.. where we stop....

For clarity,
As stated earlier, the Churches of Christ are not affiliated with the extreem International Churches of Christ.

As I stated in an earlier thread,

Furthermore, it is grace THROUGH faith (eph 2:8)[the word ‘through’ here, in the greek, is literally an Instrument, thus, our faith is the instrument of God’s grace], while the purpose remains constant, and that is to do the works of our Lord, which is to be a light for the lost; thus; Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Emphasised by Philippians 4:13's I through Christ.

what occurs in Baptism is pure grace... and as a work, it is the work of our Lord for through our faith, his grace transforms our lives.

Got a problem with that?

 

[stovebolts]

Solo,
Care to reply?

First, do the non-instumental Church of Christ members listen to instrumental music on CDs, Radio, Television, Concerts, etc.? Why or why not?

Not sure what this has to do with our corporate worship What exactly are you digging for?

Second, when are believers to worship God? For an hour on Sundays, for two hours on Sunday, longer on Sunday, more than on Sunday, perhaps on Tuesday also, Every day of the week? Please explain.

Again, not sure what your digging for... The particular congregation that I attend has two services on Sunday morning and one Sunday evening. We also have a corporate worship on Wednesday evening before our Bible classes.

 

[jgredline]

Hi Jeff
Do believe that baptism is a a part or necessary for salvation?

I seem to recall you saying it is, but I could be mistaken, so I thought I would ask.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Javier,

I'm almost out of time for today, so I'll try and drop in on this thread on Monday or Tues depending on my schedule. Sorry..

While there are people that are more qualified than myself, I'll try and recap a portion of what John Mark Hicks co-authored in his book, "Down to the river to Pray". (Check thread in Book review forum)

God is in the business of transforming lives. Baptism serves this purpose, thus, baptism is a part our our salvation as God transforms us into his likeness. However, Baptism is not a line in the sand that defines heaven and hell.

Though my response is short, I hope that it sets the tone for what the Church of Christ believes in regard to baptism and it's role in ones salvation. As with any group of believers, there will always be those that draw ridged lines.

Jeff

 

[Oscar3]

The spirit of him who raised Christ from the dead. As the scripture says, "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

Is this spirit you speak of created as well ?

 

[mutzrein]

Is this spirit you speak of created as well ?

What do you mean? Created as well as what? It is the spirit OF God that dwells within me. It is the Spirit OF God that has given me life. It is the Spirit OF God that makes me one with Him and with Christ my Lord.

 

[Oscar3]

What do you mean? Created as well as what? It is the spirit OF God that dwells within me. It is the Spirit OF God that has given me life. It is the Spirit OF God that makes me one with Him and with Christ my Lord.

So how does your theory work.
If the holy spirit is not God according to your beliefs, then who is it?
I know that demons are spirits and they posses people as they enter them, and since demons are fallen angels, I imagine that regular angels could posses a human, so are you saying that the Holy Spirit is an Angel?

 

[Imagican]

So how does your theory work.
If the holy spirit is not God according to your beliefs, then who is it?
I know that demons are spirits and they posses people as they enter them, and since demons are fallen angels, I imagine that regular angels could posses a human, so are you saying that the Holy Spirit is an Angel?

Oscar,

WHY do you 'feel' that The Holy Spirit MUST be a 'thing', (person)? Who 'taught' you this? How hard would it be to simply accept The Holy Spirit AS The Spirit of God without ANY'ONE' telling you this. Simply accepting The Word as offered would be MUCH more sensible than placing your 'faith' in 'man-made' doctrine.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Oscar,
The Holy Spirit dwells within every born again believer. Notice that the One God who is the Father of all, and who is above all, and through all, is in all believers. God is in every believer. How? Through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God. I have experienced many, many times that individuals who are not believers do not believe that Jesus is God, however, when they are born again, they experience the truth of the triune God through their studying of the Bible.


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

Romans 8:9 speaks clearly that Jesus and the Spirit are God; and whoever does not have the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ, which is God "in you all", according to Romans 8:9, is none of HIS.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

One can read and read and read the Scriptures until the breath of life is taken from them, but until they become born again, there can be no understanding without the Spirit dwelling within them.

Welcome back.
Michael

 

[mutzrein]

Thanks for your comments on Oscar's posts guys. I was waiting for him to get back to active posting before responding :D

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah Mutz, he's on vacation for about another week huh?

Hey MEC, Oscar isn't a Church of Christ'er (is that a word : ) and though I respect your belief (as I do not believe it's a salvation issue per se), I really don't want this thread to turn into a trinity debate :wink:

 

[jgredline]

Oscar,
The Holy Spirit dwells within every born again believer. Notice that the One God who is the Father of all, and who is above all, and through all, is in all believers. God is in every believer. How? Through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, God. I have experienced many, many times that individuals who are not believers do not believe that Jesus is God, however, when they are born again, they experience the truth of the triune God through their studying of the Bible.


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

Romans 8:9 speaks clearly that Jesus and the Spirit are God; and whoever does not have the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Christ, which is God "in you all", according to Romans 8:9, is none of HIS.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

One can read and read and read the Scriptures until the breath of life is taken from them, but until they become born again, there can be no understanding without the Spirit dwelling within them.

Welcome back.
Michael

Amen, Could not have said it any better or more clear....

 

[Imagican]

Stove,

Point taken. Didn't mean to. Just thought I would 'step in' and ask oscar a 'question' that may 'lead' him towards understanding. So, please, I wasn't the one that offered a veerance from topic, just offering the information that oscar was asking of Mutz. I know that HE is plenty capable of answering for himself, but at the time it had been 'quite a while' that the question had remained 'unanswered'.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Yeah Mutz, he's on vacation for about another week huh?

Hey MEC, Oscar isn't a Church of Christ'er (is that a word : ) and though I respect your belief (as I do not believe it's a salvation issue per se), I really don't want this thread to turn into a trinity debate :wink:

Jeff
Just so I am clear I will ask you a couple of yes or no questions questions.

Do you believe it is necessary to believe that Jesus is God for salvation?

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but your remark in this thread brought up a red flag....