Church of Christ a cult ?

[jgredline]

Fantastic! Will you be attending Crenshawor Culver Palms?

I thought about culver palms, but decided on Crenshaw...I am rather surprised that there would be a Church of Christ there because that area is like mostly pentecostal and Charismatic......Should be interesting

 

[stovebolts]

I thought about culver palms, but decided on Crenshaw...I am rather surprised that there would be a Church of Christ there because that area is like mostly pentecostal and Charismatic......Should be interesting

You should try them both. After checking out the credentials from both congregations, I think that between the three congregations, you will see the diversity of the Churches of Christ and possibley the unity that unites us in our differences.

I have heard of some baptist churches doing the single cup and loaf and really never thought I would encounter one. I could see the symbolism in it, but thats not for me.

God meets us where were at.

I got the impression that this has been the case for a long time, but I don't know.

Though it sounds odd to me as well, I am slow to judge, normally giving the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you could ask an elder there as I’m sure he would explain their reasoning.

Like is said. It was really strange to me not have any instruments, but I do not consider this cultic in any way. Infact I often sing by myself in my truck with out any music....

Yes we are to worship in spirit and in truth.....

Thank you for a well thought out response and you may correct me if I am wrong, but it is good to come to an agreement on this issue.

If there are no scriptural objections as to the why some of the Churches of Christ do not use musical instruments, then we shall proceed to the next topic, Baptism.

I will attempt to answer your question later today, time permitting in regard to how baptism plays a role in our salvation. I will be starting with Eph 2:8 if I hear of no objections.

 

[jgredline]

Thank you for a well thought out response and you may correct me if I am wrong, but it is good to come to an agreement on this issue.

If there are no scriptural objections as to the why some of the Churches of Christ do not use musical instruments, then we shall proceed to the next topic, Baptism.

I will attempt to answer your question later today, time permitting in regard to how baptism plays a role in our salvation. I will be starting with Eph 2:8 if I hear of no objections.

Lets move on...

 

[stovebolts]

J,
Since you are better qualified in the greek than I, would you please break down Eph 2:8. I will be placing an emphasis on dia

 

[jgredline]

J,
Since you are better qualified in the greek than I, would you please break down Eph 2:8. I will be placing an emphasis on dia

OK, I will do it when I get home. I did not bring my Greek NT to work today.

 

[jgredline]

Jeff
Here you go...Eph 2:8....

τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον TR1550

This literally reads this way....

for by grace you are saved through faith and this not of yourselves GODS gift



You mentioned the preposition ''δια'' (through)...But in fairness the English language does not do this verse justice....The Greek is much more emphatic..
Lets take a look..

τη (definate article ὁ) γαρ (conjunction) χαριτι (Here we have the subject. The noun ''grace'') εστε σεσωσμενοι (Here we have not one but two verbs adding emphasis on Grace) δια (Now we have the prepostion ''through'' that precedes ''the definate article ὁ that is not in the english translations...Hmm but it is in the Greek Text...)της (and now we are back to the noun ''faith'') πιστεως και τουτο (now we have a conjuction that preceeds the demonstrative Pronoun ''this'') ουκ ( Here we have the negative particle ''not'') εξ υμων ( Here we have a preposition preceeding the personal pronoun ''yourselves'') θεου (The noun God)το (Here we have another definate article that again is not in the english translations ''ὁ '') δωρον (and this brings us the the noun ''gift'')

Jeff..Excuse the large font. It is hard to see in regular font. atleast for me....

Ok. So Paul is emphatic in what he is saying as he sets up his next statements in verse 9 and 10...

ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται
αυτου γαρ εσμεν ποιημα κτισθεντες εν χριστω ιησου επι εργοις αγαθοις οις προητοιμασεν ο θεος ινα εν αυτοις περιπατησωμεν
1550 TR

So here what paul is plainly and clearly saying emphatically is simply this...
The plan of salvation originates with the grace of God....
It is given as a present possession....
The way we receive the gift of eternal life is through faith....
Paul makes it clear that salvation does not come through ourselves....
Paul makes it clear that it is a gift of God...A present with no strings attached...
Paul makes it emphatically clear that the gift of God is salvation by grace and through faith and thats it....Nothing more....Not ''ANY'' works...so that man can boast.....
Paul makes it clear folks are not saved by works. And they are not saved by faith plus works. They are saved through faith alone


The very moment anyone adds any sort of works to earn or maintain salvation; it is no longer Grace.....
Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

So again; pAUL is emphatic here....So by saying that we are in the ''process'' of being saved is adding works to salvation....

For those who say they can loose their salvation; again they are adding works to try and keep it.....and the scripture says....

Romans 3:27-28
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


Once we are justified, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and there is nothing that we can do to loose it, for there is nothing that can seperate us from the love of God....Praise God.....



Let me know if this is what you were after.

 

[stovebolts]

Actually Javier, I’m not out to debate whether or not one can loose their salvation as it seems that’s the direction your heading or a point that your trying to defend. I would much rather speak on what the Church of Christ believes in regard to Baptism according to John Mark Hicks, Professor of Theology at
Lipscomb University, and Greg Taylor, former missionary in Uganda and Managing Editor of newWineskins, in their co-authored book on baptism entitled Down in the River to Pray: Revisioning Baptism as God's Transforming Work.

That being said, you are correct in saying that salvation is a gift. If you look a bit closer at the greek word dia, you will find that this word, in context, denotes an instrument. Thus, our faith is the instrument for God’s grace.

Our participation in the death and resurrection of Jesus in baptism through faith means that while we were once dead in sin, we are not alive to God (Col 2:14). This is the language of justification in a baptismal context. Those who have been raised with Christ have experienced justification (cf Rom 4:25), and we were raised with Christ in baptism through faith in God’s work.
Baptism is fundamentally God’s work – he forgives, he raises up, he makes alive. We simply entrust ourselves through faith in his power. In baptism, we do not “do,†accomplish or effect anything but receive everything. Baptism does not belong in the category of “work†but in the category of “faithâ€Â. It is a human response that arises out of faith, expresses faith, and receives God’s gracious salvation as a gift. Baptism participates in the instrumentality of faith and therefore is not excluded from the means of grace. Baptism, just like faith, is the beggar’s hand that receives what God gives.

Text: Eph 2 and Col 2
Ground: Divine Grace
Included Means: Faith-Baptism
Excluded Means: Not Works
Blessing: Salvation
Effect: Good Works

Text: Tit 3:3-8
Ground: Divine Mercy
Included Means: Washing and Rebirth of Renewal of Holy Spirit
Excluded Means: Not Works of Rightousness
Blessing: Justified
Effect: Good Works

 

[jgredline]

Actually Javier, I’m not out to debate whether or not one can loose their salvation as it seems that’s the direction your heading or a point that your trying to defend. I would much rather speak on what the Church of Christ believes in regard to Baptism according to John Mark Hicks, Professor of Theology at
Lipscomb University, and Greg Taylor, former missionary in Uganda and Managing Editor of newWineskins, in their co-authored book on baptism entitled Down in the River to Pray: Revisioning Baptism as God's Transforming Work.

That being said, you are correct in saying that salvation is a gift. If you look a bit closer at the greek word dia, you will find that this word, in context, denotes an instrument. Thus, our faith is the instrument for God’s grace.

Jeff
I went off on a tangent...You know how it is. I was thinking faster than I was typing...I do not wish to discuss ''can one loose his slavation''...That being said, I want to read what you have offered in those links so it may be a couple of days before I respond....

 

[stovebolts]

Take your time and be dilegent in your studies Javier and I am sure that you and any others will quickly see that the Churches of Christ are not in any way, shape of form a Cult. Perhaps misunderstood, but certainly not Cultic.

 

[jgredline]

Take your time and be dilegent in your studies Javier and I am sure that you and any others will quickly see that the Churches of Christ are not in any way, shape of form a Cult. Perhaps misunderstood, but certainly not Cultic.

Jeff
On my way to work this morning I was thinking of this thread and really there is no way to separate verses 9 and 10 from V 8.....That section of scripture is one large chunk....So the issue of Salvation and works is very much in effect....

Perhaps I am missunderstanding you, and correct me if I am wrong....But the church of Christ teaches that folks are on a journey sort of speak unto salvation as life passes by....I atleast have heard you say something to this effect....
If I am mistaken, please explain what process you are in or what state of salvation you are in....

As far as the preposition dia (through), I don't see how you can use that as a noun in Greek or English, but I will study it and give yu the benefit of the dought....

Anyway these were my thoughts on my drive to work this morning....

 

[stovebolts]

Jeff
On my way to work this morning I was thinking of this thread and really there is no way to separate verses 9 and 10 from V 8.....That section of scripture is one large chunk....So the issue of Salvation and works is very much in effect....

J,
If you are seeking to view baptism as a work, then it will remain a work in your eyes and you will not see how God pours his grace upon us in Baptism anymore than one who disbeleives in the trinity will be able to experience the reality of the trinity.

In Verse 10, the effect and purpose of God's grace is made very clear.

You see, if you look at 2:8 for the primary purpose of defending grace from the evil works group, you loose the beauty of the rest of the text.

Let me know what you come up with for dia (above and beyond Strongs). Peseus has a good research center but they are experiencing issues today so I can't give you a link.

Baptism as a Means of Receiving Grace
Even the casual reader of Paul’s letter to the Romans recognizes that justification by faith is one of the letter’s major themes. The terms “justify,†“justification,†“righteousness,†all derived from the same Greek root, are prominent in Romans 3-5.
As a reminder, here are a few:

3:24-[we] are justified freely by his grace
3:38- man is justified by fath apart from works
4:6- God credits righteousness apart from works
4:13- righteousness that comes by faith.
4:25- [Jesus] was raised to life for our justification
5:1- we have now been justified through faith
5:9- we have now been justified by his blood.
5:17- God’s abundant provision of grace and the gift of righteousness
5:19- through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous

Righteousness is a free gift. No one earns it; it does not come through works, but by faith. We are justified by what Jesus has done rather than because of what we have done.

Romans 3-5, however, is followed by the longest discussion of baptism in Paul’s letters. The close proximity of baptism and justification is not only spatial, but conceptual. Paul links baptism and justification as well as baptism and sanctification (holiness) in Romans 6. Through baptism we participate in the death (blood) and resurrection. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the act of obedience that justifies us, and baptism is our moment of union with that act. As a result, Paul closely associates baptism wit our justification.

Paul’s language is telling. First we are “buried†with [Jesus] through baptism into death†(Rom 6:4). The term “through†is the Greek term dia, which denotes agency or instrumentality. In other words, we are buried with Jesus by means of baptism. The same word is used in Titus 3:5 when Paul affirms that God “saved us through (dia) the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spiritâ€Â. Ephesians 5:26 expresses the same idea as Paul writes that we are cleansed “by the washing of the water through the word.â€Â

This is the language of means or instrumentality. Baptism is the means by which we are united with the death of Chrsit. This does not mean, of course, that the waters unites us, but that God unites us to the death of his Son by the power of his Spirit in baptism. God acts throught baptism. Paul’s language is instrumental in character.

Edit to remove typo's :

 

[stovebolts]

Perhaps I am missunderstanding you, and correct me if I am wrong....But the church of Christ teaches that folks are on a journey sort of speak unto salvation as life passes by....I atleast have heard you say something to this effect....
If I am mistaken, please explain what process you are in or what state of salvation you are in....

You have misunderstood me... We are all on a journey regardless of what we call it. Some call it a pilgramidge, others call it being sanctified. Regardless of what we call it, we are in the process of being transformed in the image and likeness of our creator.

So, instead of saying, "I was saved on Aug 27, 1985 at 2 pm", why not ask, "How has God changed my life?" If we view it from that angle, we can then begin to see, and be thankful for God's wonderful and tranforming work in our lives.

It's just a different way of looking at it J.

 

[stovebolts]

Hicks and Taylor, pg 32-34

Redemptive-Historical Typology

Typology is a hermeneutical device by which authors see in the past meaning that are associated with present realities. For example, the Passover was a type of the Lord’s Supper. The meaning of the former was ultimately fulfilled in the latter. Typology is a difficult topic and should be approached with caution. Consequently, while there may be other instances of baptismal typology in the Old Testament (e.g. Naaman in 2 Kings 5), we have restricted our selves to two. The Flood and the Exodus are directly linked to Christian theology of baptism in the New Testament.

The Noahic Flood and Baptism (1 Peter 3:18-21)

For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the sprits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. And baptism, which this prefigures, now save you – not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The succinct statement that “baptism…now saves you†is astounding. Indeed, it is scandalous for some. Peter attributes to baptism some kind of soteriological function and his exact meaning has been the subject of considerable debate.

The Noahic Flood is typological of the saving function of baptism. The eight persons who found refuge in the arkfrom the destructive floodwaters were, in fact, “saved through water†(dieswthesan di’ hudatos), and this prefigured how Christians are also saved through water (that is, water baptism saves us). Baptism, just like the Flood, is a saving event. Just as God saved Noah through cleansing the old world with water, so God saves his people from their old life through baptism. In the Noahic Flood, water judged the old world and cleansed it, and baptism judges the old life and cleanses it. To use a Pauline metaphor, baptismal water kills the old person, buries it and then renews it. Noah passed through the waters into a new world, just as Christians pass though baptism into a new life.

Peter, however, quickly qualifies his meanting. He does not want to foster a misunderstanding of misapplication of his point. The power of this salvation is not inherent in the water. The water does not literally save. But God saves through the water by the power of Christ’s work. The death of Chris, where the righteous died for the unrighteous, is the power of salvation. The resurrection of Christ, where life overcomes death, is the power of salvation. Baptism saves us, not by the power of the water, but “through the resurrection of Jesus, “ jus as – Peter wrote earlier – God gave us a “New birth into a living hope throuht the resurrection of Jesus†(1 Peter 1:3)

Peters qualification points us to the significance of baptism. It is no mere cleansing of the outer person. It is not like a Jewish ritual bath that only cleaned the outer person from ceremonial impurities or like an ordinary bath that only removes the dirt from the body. On the contrary, it addresses the inner person. It is the “appeal to God for a good conscience.†Baptism has an inner dimension – it is a function of conscience.

The exact nature of the function, however, is debated. The Greek term behind the word “appeal†(eperotema) is ambiguous. While the NRSV translates Peter’s phrase as an “appeal to God for a good conscience,†the NIV translates it “the pledge of a good conscience toward God.†In other words, is baptism the appeal for a good conscience (thus, a commitment of loyalty to God). Is baptism a “prayer†(Moffatt’s translation) for a clean conscience of a pledge of allegiance? Both fit the inner/outer contrast in the text – baptism is not simply an outer act like removing dirt from the body, but it is an inner appeal or pledge of the soul. Both suppose that baptismal candidates actively appeal or commit themselves to God through baptism. This would seem to exclude those who cannot make such an appeal or commitment.

Only a page and a half left of this series, but I can’t type any more lol. I’ll finish it tomorrow.

 

[jgredline]

God is in the business of transforming lives. Baptism serves this purpose, thus, baptism is a part our our salvation as God transforms us into his likeness. However, Baptism is not a line in the sand that defines heaven and hell.

Jeff
I asked this question early on and you wanted to wait until we got to this part. I don't want to sweep this under the rug....This statement in my eyes is contradicting itself.....You say baptism is ''a part'' of our salvation and then you say it is ''not a line in the sand that defines heaven and hell''...So which is it?

Actually Javier, I’m not out to debate whether or not one can loose their salvation as it seems that’s the direction your heading or a point that your trying to defend.

Like I said, I do not want to debate this either but I can tell you its un-avoidable....I am not the one who is defending my position, it is you who are trying to defend your position....or TCOC position....

I would much rather speak on what the Church of Christ believes in regard to Baptism according to John Mark Hicks, Professor of Theology at
Lipscomb University, and Greg Taylor, former missionary in Uganda and Managing Editor of newWineskins, in their co-authored book on baptism entitled Down in the River to Pray: Revisioning Baptism as God's Transforming Work.

Is this John Mark Hicks and Greg taylor the Ellen G white of TCOC?

Why not leave peoples opinions out of the debate and use the scriptures only....At the very least you should be giving us your opinion...I clicked on the link and started to read it; but the fact is we need to see what the scriptures say, not what some website says....

If I wanted to bring in web sites, I would have done that by now. And Guess what happens when I Google ''The Church Of Christ''....It comes out on most of all the cults watch list?...So to be fair I have not brought them in. So if you want to bring in websites, I can bring some too.....

I would rather debate you with the scriptures and ones own Knowlegde, not cut and paste jobs because they are no longer discussions but lectures and since the people who wrote those articles are not here to defend themselves, we should leave them out......of it....

That being said, you are correct in saying that salvation is a gift. If you look a bit closer at the greek word dia, you will find that this word, in context, denotes an instrument. Thus, our faith is the instrument for God’s grace.

Jeff
Please explain to me how the preposition ''dia'' / ''through'' is used as a noun....I broke the verse down in the Greek and I can't seem to come up with anyway that it means ''an instrument''...

So please break it down for me.....

 

[jgredline]

Jeff
I was not going to respond to this cut and paste lecture you have posted here, but no way could I let this go......Talk about taking scripture out of context and misrepresenting it.....Lets take a look at what Paul is saying here...

Hicks and Taylor, pg 161 wrote:

Paul’s language is telling. First we are “buried†with [Jesus] through baptism into death†(Rom 6:4). The term “through†is the Greek term dia, which denotes agency or instrumentality. In other words, we are buried with Jesus by means of baptism. The same word is used in Titus 3:5 when Paul affirms that God “saved us through (dia) the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spiritâ€Â. Ephesians 5:26 expresses the same idea as Paul writes that we are cleansed “by the washing of the water through the word.â€Â

Romans 6:4.....1550 TR
συνεταφημεν ουν αυτω δια του βαπτισματος εις τον θανατον ινα ωσπερ ηγερθη χριστος εκ νεκρων δια της δοξης του πατρος ουτως και ημεις εν καινοτητι ζωης περιπατησωμεν.....

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

ok..First lets take a look at what Paul is saying here....First''What type od baptism is Paul speaking of here? Is he speaking of spiritual Baptism or is he speaking of water baptism?.....A close look at verse 3 emphatically says ''baptized into Christ Jesus'' which means spiritual baptizm that happens in ''every'' new believer....When we are born again we are baptized into Christ Jesus and we are barried with him into death......So bringing in scripture from other epistles would place them out of context here because the answer to verse 4 is given in verse 3......

Now lets see what Paul is saying about Titus 3:5
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Again, Paul is NOT speaking of water baptism here.....Lets look at the context here....
Paul starts out by saying ''Not by works''...
Paul makes it clear that we are saved or God saves folks not because we are righteous because there are none who are righteous, no not one...but we are saved by ''his grace'' because of his mercy....
Here we have the ''rebirth'' that means a cleansing of our sins.....and we have the renewal that happens by the Holy Spirit...
through Christ Jesus....There is no mention here of water baptism...
Further more the scripture goes on to say ''He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.'''

So if paul meant Water baptism, then he would have contradicted himself by adding works....No paul makes it very clear he is speaking of spiritual baptizm in these two verses that were taken out of context by this theology professor.....

Paul did not say, Hey folks get water baptized and accept Gods Grace; nor did he say Now that you have been born again you need to be baptized to seal the deal....

 

[stovebolts]

Javier,
It is not my intent to debate baptism in this thread. It is my intent to show what the Church of Christ believes.

In no way does our belief on baptism dictate a cult.

With that, I will humbly bow out of this forum. Unless there is another Church of Christ member that wishes to take up this thread, I humble ask that it be locked.

Peace be with you all.

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

You may wish to look up the word dia at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu under tools when the site comes back up.

BTW
John Mark Hicks is the Prof of Theology at Lipscomb University. Lipscomb University is a Church of Christ College, as is Rochester, Harding, Freed Hardman and Abeline just to mention a few.

And as far as my 'cut and paste', I wish it were that easy as my fingers are still stiff from all that typing. The reason I posted Taylor and Hicks is due to their status within the Church of Christ. The links that I provided were Church of Christ links.

Like I said earlier Javier, you will not be able to see the beauty of baptism while you continue to see it as a work and I liken your hard stance on this subject as our brothers in Christ who do not see the trinity. Round and round it goes each digging his heals in deeper and deeper while hearts get harder and harder... You will not see baptism for what it is because you do not see grace in action. You did not see Christ in our worship service because you do not know how to worship in Christ, if you did, you would have seen Christ in our worship. Jesus says, "When two or more come together in my name, I am present". This, in context, is in regard to conflict. You cannot tell me that there were not two people in that whole congregation that did not believe in Christ. What occurs in baptism is pure grace, pure and simple. We do nothing to earn our salvation, it is a gift from God.

I have been on this forum for over 2 years almost daily. Have I learned anything? Yes I have. I see many things, and it saddens me and often I have been known to go on my own tangents about them. But plain and simple, I do not belong on this forum. I have met many good people, and I thank each and every one of you (you know who you are). But I can't do this anymore... I need more giving, and less taking.



Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

Perseus is still down, so I can't provide the link.
But just to fill the gap...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 167#321167
From the Net Bible

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith,20 and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not from 21 works, so that no one can boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them. 23

20tc The feminine article is found before πίστεως (pistews, “faithâ€Â) in the Byzantine text as well as in A Ψ 1881 pc. Perhaps for some scribes the article was intended to imply creedal fidelity as a necessary condition of salvation (“you are saved through the faithâ€Â), although elsewhere in the corpus Paulinum the phrase διὰ τῆς πίστεως (dia th" pistew") is used for the act of believing rather than the content of faith (cf. Romans 3:30, 31; Galatians 3:14; Ephesians 3:17; Colossians 2:12). On the other side, strong representatives of the Alexandrian and Western texts (א B D* F G P 0278 6 33 1739 al bo) lack the article. Hence, both text-critically and exegetically, the meaning of the text here is most likely “saved through faith†as opposed to “saved through the faith.†Regarding the textual problem, the lack of the article is the preferred reading.


21tn Or “not as a result of.â€Â

23tn Grk “so that we might walk in them†(or “by themâ€Â).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets look at the word through (dia)

New Testament (eds. Brooke Foss Westcott, Fenton John Anthony Hort)
III. causal, through, by,
B. of the Instrument or Means. (Ephesians 2:8 translates dia as through, aka Instrument)
C. of Manner (Acts 15:7 translates dia as by, aka manner)


Now I am finished.

 

[jgredline]

1223 διά [dia /dee·ah/] prep. A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; TDNT 2:65; TDNTA 149; GK 1328; 647 occurrences; AV translates as “by†241 times, “through†88 times, “with†16 times, “for†58 times, “for … sake†47 times, “therefore + 5124†44 times, “for this cause + 5124†14 times, “because†53 times, and translated miscellaneously 86 times. 1 through. 1a of place. 1a1 with. 1a2 in. 1b of time. 1b1 throughout. 1b2 during. 1c of means. 1c1 by. 1c2 by the means of. 2 through. 2a the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. 2a1 by reason of. 2a2 on account of. 2a3 because of for this reason. 2a4 therefore. 2a5 on this account.

Strong, J. The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order.
=======================================================

διά dia, dee-ah´; a primary prep. denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional): after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) … fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, × though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

======================================================
διά dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: account(4), after(2), afterward(1), always*(2), because(111), between*(1), briefly*(1), charge*(1), constantly(1), continually*(6), during(1), forever*(1), gives(1), means(3), over(1), presence(1), reason(40), sake(41), sakes(5), since(1), so then*(1), so*(1), therefore*(16), this reason*(1), this*(1), though(1), through(225), through the agency(1), through*(1), view(2), way(3), what(1), why(3), why*(27).

New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition

=======================================================

Wescott and Hort are known for their liberal tranlations and even at that the NASB, ESV, RSV, all use the word ''through'' (dia)

There is no way to turn that preposition into a noun......

 

[stovebolts]

It's a conspiricy I tell you! Hurry and run for the hills! The sky is falling, the sky is falling! :o

1223 διά [dia /dee·ah/] prep. A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; TDNT 2:65; TDNTA 149; GK 1328; 647 occurrences; AV translates as “by†241 times, “through†88 times, “with†16 times, “for†58 times, “for … sake†47 times, “therefore + 5124†44 times, “for this cause + 5124†14 times, “because†53 times, and translated miscellaneously 86 times. 1 through. 1a of place. 1a1 with. 1a2 in. 1b of time. 1b1 throughout. 1b2 during. 1c of means. 1c1 by. 1c2 by the means of. 2 through. 2a the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. 2a1 by reason of. 2a2 on account of. 2a3 because of for this reason. 2a4 therefore. 2a5 on this account.

Strong, J. The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order.
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διά dia, dee-ah´; a primary prep. denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional): after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) … fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, × though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

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διά dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: account(4), after(2), afterward(1), always*(2), because(111), between*(1), briefly*(1), charge*(1), constantly(1), continually*(6), during(1), forever*(1), gives(1), means(3), over(1), presence(1), reason(40), sake(41), sakes(5), since(1), so then*(1), so*(1), therefore*(16), this reason*(1), this*(1), though(1), through(225), through the agency(1), through*(1), view(2), way(3), what(1), why(3), why*(27).

New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition

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Wescott and Hort are known for their liberal tranlations and even at that the NASB, ESV, RSV, all use the word ''through'' (dia)

There is no way to turn that preposition into a noun......

B. of the Instrument or Means. (Ephesians 2:8 translates dia as through, aka Instrument)

Kinda sounds like faith is an agent :

Another member (Non CofC) kindly sent this to me. (remember, it's a conspiricy!)
http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1994i/J12-94c.htm (Not a cofc link)

Baptism is pure grace and is a work of God through our faith. Thus, it is a saving grace (as is all of God's grace which makes baptism a part of our salvation, it is not the end all be all of salvation)