Church of Christ a cult ?

[golfjack]

reply

I agree with you Jg. Only God could die on a cross for forgiveness of sins. No man can. Jesus is called the Son of Man. He is also called the Son of God. A God of creation, King of kings, Lord of lords, our healer, our deliverer, our peace, the basis of our salvation to be able to say thank you Jesus, to pray in the name of Jesus, and many other atributes to Him. And only God can do this.


Wake up those who don't believe Jesus is God, and I pray that you come to this truth. I pray that you have listening ears, and opened eyes. I pray that you come to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. I pray this in the precious name of Jesus.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[stovebolts]

Stove,

Point taken. Didn't mean to. Just thought I would 'step in' and ask oscar a 'question' that may 'lead' him towards understanding. So, please, I wasn't the one that offered a veerance from topic, just offering the information that oscar was asking of Mutz. I know that HE is plenty capable of answering for himself, but at the time it had been 'quite a while' that the question had remained 'unanswered'.

MEC

Thank you MEC for respecting my wishes and not pulling this into a Trinity debate. You have shown great restraint and patience which is appreciated.

 

[jgredline]

You know jg, all anyone here really wants from you is for you to follow the TOS of this forum and leave your personal bias out of it.
You have proven time and again that you cannot do that. I really think it's a sad state when the ones who are suppose to be enforcing the rules become the ones who think the rules don't apply to themselves.
Or else they lack the maturity and integrity to set an example.
Just uphold the TOS, jg. Is that really so hard for you to do? Please try alot harder to leave your judgments and personal slaps out of it.
For the record, I dont need your approval, I don't care what you think or don't think of me.
Just uphold the TOS please, especially rules 5-6

Thanks

Destiny
You are right...So I will start to enforce the TOS of this site and I will start with issuing you a warning...Check you PM. 2 more and you could get banned...

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

I agree with you Jg. Only God could die on a cross for forgiveness of sins. No man can. Jesus is called the Son of Man. He is also called the Son of God. A God of creation, King of kings, Lord of lords, our healer, our deliverer, our peace, the basis of our salvation to be able to say thank you Jesus, to pray in the name of Jesus, and many other atributes to Him. And only God can do this.


Wake up those who don't believe Jesus is God, and I pray that you come to this truth. I pray that you have listening ears, and opened eyes. I pray that you come to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. I pray this in the precious name of Jesus.



May God bless, Golfjack

Thanks Jack

 

[stovebolts]

JG,
Is there a rule on hijacking a thread?

 

[Solo]

JG,
Is there a rule on hijacking a thread?

Please start a new thread when asking a question not related to the thread. Thanks.

 

[Solo]

Original OP reposted:

I have a friend, his mane is kenny.
He has been attending a church of Christ for some time and really I never gave it a second though. Well it turns out he is moving away and was told by his pasture that unless he joins another church of Christ his salvation is in jeoporady. So I told him I would look into it and lo and behold the internet is full of articles and where there is smoke there is fire.

Here is a little taste of what I have found.

What do the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, and the Church of Christ denomination all have in common? They each claim to have THE Way; THE Truth; and THE Life, and that no one gets to heaven without being a part of their organization! Certainly they can't all be right since their individual doctrinal beliefs are diametrically opposed to one another. On this web site we will endeavor to examine the claim of the Church of Christ to be God's sole representative on the earth today, and answer the question, "Is the Church of Christ Denomination A Cult? You will notice that most scriptural quotations are taken from the New American Standard Bible, which is considered by most scholars to be the most literal word for word translation extant today.

http://www.chocd.org/

If anybody has some advice for him, he would be greatful.
I asked him to join the forum and will be doing that tomarrow

 

[stovebolts]

Please start a new thread when asking a question not related to the thread. Thanks.

I'll make sure to follow your example :wink: Thanks for reposting the thread and getting us back on track! :D

 

[jgredline]

Jeff
You are right. Time to get back on track....

Now, since this thread is about the church of Christ and since you are a member of this church, what are your positions on these three things.....

A) Baptismal Regeneration
B) No Musical Instruments in Worship
C) Denial of the Present Day Ministry of the Holy Spirit

 

[stovebolts]

I would like to highlight that you asked me what MY position is on these issues. Please know that many people that attend the cofc across the globe may agree, some may not.

A) Baptismal Regeneration

As earlier stated:

God is in the business of transforming lives. Baptism serves this purpose, thus, baptism is a part our our salvation as God transforms us into his likeness. However, Baptism is not a line in the sand that defines heaven and hell.

Please visit this site, or better yet, read the book. Down to the river to pray

B) No Musical Instruments in Worship

As I have stated in many other threads, we choose not to use them where I attend. On the whole, they are shunned but as Solo has pointed out already in another thread, there are those churches of Christ that use them.

Maybe I'm wrong here Javier, and I pray that I am, but your almost making me feel like it's wrong to not have musical instruments in a worship service. Can you show me a scriptural reference where were told that were supposed to have our worship service accompanied by musical instruments because I can only recall a passage that says we must worship in Spirit and Truth.

C) Denial of the Present Day Ministry of the Holy Spirit

No church of Christ minister would state that the Holy Spirit is dormant if that's what your infering by "Present Day Ministry". Can you give me an example and if so, could it be considered a salvation issue?

I realize that my answers are surface level so if you choose, please feel free to poke and probe and we can dig a little deeper, but please remember rules # 5 and #6 as we progress (as I shall do the same)and I believe that this conversation can produce much fruit.

With that being said, I will be away until monday as it is my Son's 8th birthday and we have a big weekend planned out.

 

[mutzrein]

Destiny
You are right...So I will start to enforce the TOS of this site and I will start with issuing you a warning...Check you PM. 2 more and you could get banned...

Hi JG

I thought of PM'ng this question but since others (as well as myself) have been following this thread and they may also be wondering, would you please let us know how Destiny contravened the TOS.

Thanks
Ed

 

[jgredline]

David a man after Gods own heart felt the need and desire to worship his God with musical instruments.....5 Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the Lord on all kinds of instruments of fir wood, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on sistrums, and on cymbals.
nkjv 2 sam 6:5

How about Ps 150
Let All Things Praise the Lord
1 Praise the Lord!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty firmament!
2 Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!
3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!
4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!
5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord!
NKJV


Psalm 98:6
6 With trumpets and the sound of a horn;
Shout joyfully before the Lord, the King.


Psalm 68:25
25 The singers went before, the players on instruments followed after;
Among them were the maidens playing timbrels.
Psalm 81:2
2 Raise a song and strike the timbrel,
The pleasant harp with the lute.
1 Chronicles 13:8
8 Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with 3singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.


God left us plenty of scripture that shows how musical instruments are pleasing to him.....Besides that, why would God bless some with the Gift of Music.....

I realize this is a very brief answer to one of the questions and certainly I am not avoiding the other two. I will address them in a bit...I have to go to work now....

Blessings all.

 

[stovebolts]

Just bopped in while my son plays Roller Coaster Tycoon on the other PC :D

You seem to think that I am opposed to musical instruments in a worship service. Would you allow me the liberty to re-post what I have already stated?

As I have stated in many other threads, we choose not to use them where I attend. On the whole, they are shunned but as Solo has pointed out already in another thread, there are those churches of Christ that use them.

The key word here Javier is CHOOSE.

The second key here Javier is, You have to show me in scripture where it is wrong NOT to have musical instruments in a corporate worship service.

You see Javier, I am well aware of this argument and this fork in the road affords me many different directions to choose from. You see, I also have a choice and am not locked into your argument nor your inference that we are not worshipping in spirit and truth.

You see, Jesus was once confronted with an argument he couldn't win for it was a human argument based on human reasoning drawn out of scripture. Perhaps you remember the argument when he was asked about divorce... and he was questioned why Moses had allowed it...(hence the human argument) But instead of staying in the realm of Moses where his opponents wanted him to stay pinned to, he pointed back to the beginning and the true purpose of marriage. Now, lets start at the heart of worship shall we?

And what is this basic concept and requirment of worship? We are to worship in Spirit and Truth. (I'm assuming your familiar with this verse) May I breifly suggest that worshipping in spirit could be counted as communion with the body of Christ, while truth could be counted as worshipping IN Christ for only Christ is true truth.
But, to feed your human argument, what you speak and quote is counted under the Old Covenant. Are we now to place new wine in old skins? Show me one place in scripture, under the new covenant where the first century church shows us by example where they used musical instruments in thier corporate worship or where it is a requirement that we use them in our corporate worship.

You see Javier, the burdon of proof that we are dishonoring God by not using musical instruments in our corporate worship services is on you since you seem to take issue with our not using them.

Bless you in your ardent study of this matter.

Peace be with you,
Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

Javier,
I am assuming by your silence that you either still pondering this dilemma, not speaking in adverse to the situation or humbly hoping that this thread will simply fall to the way side.

For the record; As odd as it may seem to many that visit this forum that we at the Church of Christ do not use musical instruments in our corporate worship, does not make the matter unscriptural, displeasing or dishonorable to God. God has one core requirement of those that worship Him, and that requirement is that we worship in Spirit and Truth.

John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This means we need faith. Without faith, worship is not acceptable.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Furthermore, we must worship in our hearts in unity, in truth, that is to say, In Christ. This means we sing praises that imitate God’s word that build one another up as a community of believers in Christ.
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Nowhere in the NT does it make any mention of the first century church holding a corporate worship service with musical instruments. Amazing isn’t it?
The whole NT is completely void of any mention of musical instruments in a corporate worship setting that involves the first believers, yet a few find it ODD that we don't use instruments?
Some may say, “But David worshipped with musical instrumentsâ€Â. Does this mean that it was required? If so, where are your dancers each Sunday and if you don’t have dancers, why do you omit them, yet keep the instruments? Are we beginning to see just how silly this whole argument is yet?

Acts 17:24-25 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

There is much to write on this matter, but I will stop here in the hopes that though it may seem odd to some that we do not use musical instruments in our corporate worship, does not mean that we are not worshipping in Spirit and Truth.

 

[jgredline]

Javier,
I am assuming by your silence that you either still pondering this dilemma, not speaking in adverse to the situation or humbly hoping that this thread will simply fall to the way side.

jEFF
You are assuming way to much.....

I am just getting started here....And oh, I attended The Church Of Christ in Temple City this past weekend as well as bible study the wed before....
I will be sharing my very bizarre experience. I am writing it down as I gather my thoughts....

 

[jgredline]

God is in the business of transforming lives. Baptism serves this purpose, thus, baptism is a part our our salvation as God transforms us into his likeness. However, Baptism is not a line in the sand that defines heaven and hell.

OK
lets start here by addressing this contradiction that you posted.....

You say that Baptism is ''a part'' of our salvation..
Then you say that it is not a line between heaven and hell...

So which is it?....

Now you have also stated that you believe that ''you are in the process of being saved''....Please clarify this for me, because it sounds like what you are saying is that salvation is a work in progress...

 

[jgredline]

One of the things that I enjoy doing is visiting differant churches when doing research...We did this alot in bible college and I have continued with this practice ever since...This past Wed I attended the Church of Christ in Temple city and I attended service on Sunday....

Bible study was differant. Welooked at the book of James and basically read chapter 1 and 2 but far from being a verse by verse study. It was more like a reading of the scriptures. Then it came time to close in prayer and this got a little weird for me....Everybody bowed there heads including myself and there was total silence...so I figured everybody was waiting for someone to pray...so I started to pray out loud like I usually do....well afterwards, one of the elders came up to me and welcomed me to come back and to visit the church service on sunday...I said OK, then he tell me...
''By the way, don't take this the wrong way, but you were being disrespectful
by praying out loud as I interupted the other members''...I just oppologized for offending them and went home....

Then came Sunday and it got even more bizzare....First, it was the first time in all my life that I attended a service where the prayer was done in silence...Then came the worship music... No instruments...Strange, but it was actually ok...Personally I could not deal with that type of worship, but to each his own.....Then came communion....They passed out one loaf of bread and everybody took a chunck out of it...(I am used to little individual wafers) then came the grape juice ''in one giant cup'' :o ....I am used to individual little cups....Then came the sermon....again the the book of james...''faith without works is dead''...basically it was a works based sermon....it took everything I had in me not to say anything...

But basically what it came down to is this...If we are saved and want to stay saved, we have to show it by our good works....

Anyway, this weekend I am planning on attending the huge church of christ in Los Angeles....I will have a report on that as soon as I have attended...Hopefully Jesus will be in attendence because he was certainly not in the temple city church.....

Oh, and I passed on the elements....

 

[stovebolts]

Well well...
I see you've encountered a "One Cup, One Loaf" congregation. lol. That debate has been going on since the early days lol. BTW, we pass out both them little wafers and a piece of bread so you can either 'break' bread, or pick it up. Ohh, we also use those little plastic cups just for one. After all, there is only one true cup, and one true body. :wink:

In all fairness though, I do not know what their tradition is on prayer and it does sound a bit odd to me as well. Perhaps they have recently held a study on prayer and are putting a focus on individual prayer within the community... I really don't know.

As far as their study series on James, James is viable for doctrine and though it may appear that they were teaching works based salvation, rest assured, salvation is by grace through faith. But we can touch on that subject later.

Next you brought up my comment on baptism and it's role in ones salvation. Before we go bunny hopping around, let us first resolve the issue of not having musical instruments in a corporate worship. Do you agree or disagree with my post on worship. Once we have that resolved from scripture, then we can go on to the next topic.

As odd as it may appear to those who are accustomed to drums and guitars in their corporate worship service,

Yes or No. Is the use of musical instruments in a corporate worship setting supported by apostolic examples contained within the New Testament.

Yes or No. God is serious about worship

Yes or No. We are to worship in Spirit and Truth.

 

[stovebolts]

Anyway, this weekend I am planning on attending the huge church of christ in Los Angeles....I will have a report on that as soon as I have attended...

Fantastic! Will you be attending Crenshawor Culver Palms?

 

[jgredline]

Well well...
I see you've encountered a "One Cup, One Loaf" congregation. lol. That debate has been going on since the early days lol. BTW, we pass out both them little wafers and a piece of bread so you can either 'break' bread, or pick it up. Ohh, we also use those little plastic cups just for one. After all, there is only one true cup, and one true body. :wink:

I have heard of some baptist churches doing the single cup and loaf and really never thought I would encounter one. I could see the symbolism in it, but thats not for me.

In all fairness though, I do not know what their tradition is on prayer and it does sound a bit odd to me as well. Perhaps they have recently held a study on prayer and are putting a focus on individual prayer within the community... I really don't know.

I got the impression that this has been the case for a long time, but I don't know.

As far as their study series on James, James is viable for doctrine and though it may appear that they were teaching works based salvation, rest assured, salvation is by grace through faith. But we can touch on that subject later.

OK

Next you brought up my comment on baptism and it's role in ones salvation. Before we go bunny hopping around, let us first resolve the issue of not having musical instruments in a corporate worship. Do you agree or disagree with my post on worship. Once we have that resolved from scripture, then we can go on to the next topic.

OK, Sounds good

As odd as it may appear to those who are accustomed to drums and guitars in their corporate worship service,

Yes or No. Is the use of musical instruments in a corporate worship setting supported by apostolic examples contained within the New Testament.

Yes or No. God is serious about worship

Yes or No. We are to worship in Spirit and Truth.

Like is said. It was really strange to me not have any instruments, but I do not consider this cultic in any way. Infact I often sing by myself in my truck with out any music....

Yes we are to worship in spirit and in truth.....