Church

[elijah23]

Paul spent some time and energy describing the political organization of a church. Was this his way of suggesting we all GO to church?

 

[Alabaster]

It is God's way of instructing us that we need to fellowship together in churches for our spiritual safety and well-being.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Political organization?
Paul did frequently discuss local assemblies and the practices that should and should not be a part of these assemblies of the called out congregation. He nor scripture taught that anyone should GO to church. What the scriptures tell us is that people, individual folks are what called out congregation is and that these individuals would be wise to gather together and share in one another's lives on an ongoing basis.

The concept of GOING to church is foreign to scripture, as is the concept of a "church service" with rituals that must be observed and followed on a set day of the week.

 

[elijah23]

Political organization?

Paul laid out a church structure.

 

[elijah23]

The concept of GOING to church is foreign to scripture, as is the concept of a "church service" with rituals that must be observed and followed on a set day of the week.

What happens at church if people don’t go to services?

The Bible does mention an assembly of the Lord’s people.

 

[Alabaster]

The concept of GOING to church is foreign to scripture, as is the concept of a "church service" with rituals that must be observed and followed on a set day of the week.

The concept of meeting together as churches begins in scripture!

 

[Alabaster]

What happens at church if people don’t go to services?

Hopefully wonderful things happen that those who are absent miss out on.

 

[elijah23]

Hopefully wonderful things happen that those who are absent miss out on.

But if nobody ever went to church services, what would happen at the church?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Paul laid out a church structure.

Let us discuss what was laid out by Paul as he, being inspired by the spirit, followed Jesus' pattern for the congregation.

Jesus' Words:

Matt 20: 25 But Jesus called them all to him and said, ‘You know how the rulers of the nations like to be masters over [the people] and subdue them… 26 you shouldn’t be like that! Rather, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave. 28 Why, this is how the Son of Man came… not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.’

Matt 23: ‘Everything they do is just done to be seen by men. For they broaden the [scripture-carrying] cases they wear and make the fringes [on their clothes] longer; 6 they like the first place at meals and [to sit in] the front seats in the synagogues; 7 and they like to be greeted in the markets and to have people call them Rabbi. 8 But not you! Don’t [have people] call you rabbi, for you have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 So, don’t address anyone on earth as Father, because there’s just One who is your Father, the Heavenly One. 10 Nor should you be called leaders, for you have but one Leader, the Anointed One. 11 However, the greatest among you must be your servant. 12 For, whoever promotes himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be promoted.

Now, with Jesus' words in mind, we can focus on what Paul taught. Is Ephesians 4 a good starting point?

1 So, as a prisoner in the Lord, I urge you to be worthy of the calling that you received, 2 [doing this] with all humility, gentleness, and patience, while you lovingly put up with each other. 3 Try hard to recognize the unifying force of [God’s] Breath and its power to bring you together in peace. 4 For, there’s just one body and one Spirit, according to the one hope that you were called to when you were called; 5 there’s just one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 and one God and Father of everyone, who is over all, through all, and in all.
7 Now, the amount of loving care that was shown to each of us depends on how much of the Gift the Anointed One measured out to us. 8 For He says, ‘He stepped up into the highest place and carried off captivity as a captive; then he gave gifts to the men.’
9 Now, when it says ‘he stepped up,’ this also means that he first stepped down to the lower places… to the earth. 10 So, the one who stepped down also stepped up – high above the skies – so he could make everything complete.
11 Then he gave them those who are Apostles, those who are Prophets, those who are messengers of the good news, and those who are shepherds and teachers, 12 in order to prepare the Holy Ones for the work of serving and strengthening the body of the Anointed One, 13 until we all become one in the faith and gain a complete knowledge of the Son of God to the point where it’s a completed man who fully measures up to the stature of the Anointed One… 14 so we won’t be babies anymore, being tossed up and back by waves and being blown around by every wind of the treacherous teachings of men who will use any means to do something that’s wrong.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The concept of meeting together as churches begins in scripture!

Meeting together as the called out congregation and going to church are not one and the same. Saints were constantly admonished to gather together and encourage one another so that they could be provoked to love and good works The Bible tells us they did this, oftentimes daily in one another's homes, and there was very little formal structure to those gatherings.

 

[Alabaster]

Meeting together as the called out congregation and going to church are not one and the same. Saints were constantly admonished to gather together and encourage one another so that they could be provoked to love and good works The Bible tells us they did this, oftentimes daily in one another's homes, and there was very little formal structure to those gatherings.

We are following the same admonition as always. We still fellowship together and meet together in groups we call churches even though it is not always in homes.

The formal structure is an add-on that is not really necessary. Personally, I don't belong to a denominational church that has a formal structure such as what you mention.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The formal structure is an add-on that is not really necessary. Personally, I don't belong to a denominational church that has a formal structure such as what you mention.

That is exactly what I was getting at! Eliminating the formal manmade scructure that is the church would leave us with Jesus' blood bought saints, who are the people, the individuals who make up His called out congregation.

All we'd have then would be God's word, God's people who are commissioned by God's word to love and share with one another, and Jesus the Christ as our head. What could possibly be wrong with that?

 

[Alabaster]

That is exactly what I was getting at! Eliminating the formal manmade scructure that is the church would leave us with Jesus' blood bought saints, who are the people, the individuals who make up His called out congregation.

All we'd have then would be God's word, God's people who are commissioned by God's word to love and share with one another, and Jesus the Christ as our head. What could possibly be wrong with that?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that!

 

[Eventide]

The church of God is the future bride to be of our Lord Jesus Christ... beginning at Pentecost, it consists of those who have placed their faith and trust in the precious shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and who God alone has baptized into His own body by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The church of God is the future bride to be of our Lord Jesus Christ... beginning at Pentecost, it consists of those who have placed their faith and trust in the precious shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and who God alone has baptized into His own body by the power of the Holy Spirit.

If the church is the bride, who are the wedding guests?

 

[Oats]

If the church is the bride, who are the wedding guests?

serious?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

There is 1 bride, but many are invited to the wedding feast. What is the difference between the chosen guests and the bride? This issue has been ignored but could in fact be a BIG DEAL.

 

[Nick]

Paul spent some time and energy describing the political organization of a church. Was this his way of suggesting we all GO to church?

Political organisation? What does that mean? Paul did describe a church structure but he was also very concerned with what actually happensi n church. And considering that was is described as the purpose and substance of going to church, why should we not go? We are saved for works of service (Eph 2:10) and this starts in the home and in the church, then reaching out to the nations to proclaim the name of the Lord.

Let us discuss what was laid out by Paul as he, being inspired by the spirit, followed Jesus' pattern for the congregation.

Jesus' Words:

Matt 20: 25 But Jesus called them all to him and said, ‘You know how the rulers of the nations like to be masters over [the people] and subdue them… 26 you shouldn’t be like that! Rather, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave. 28 Why, this is how the Son of Man came… not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.’

Matt 23: ‘Everything they do is just done to be seen by men. For they broaden the [scripture-carrying] cases they wear and make the fringes [on their clothes] longer; 6 they like the first place at meals and [to sit in] the front seats in the synagogues; 7 and they like to be greeted in the markets and to have people call them Rabbi. 8 But not you! Don’t [have people] call you rabbi, for you have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 So, don’t address anyone on earth as Father, because there’s just One who is your Father, the Heavenly One. 10 Nor should you be called leaders, for you have but one Leader, the Anointed One. 11 However, the greatest among you must be your servant. 12 For, whoever promotes himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be promoted.

Now, with Jesus' words in mind, we can focus on what Paul taught. Is Ephesians 4 a good starting point?

I think I see what you're trying to say in quoting Matthew 23, that we have one ultimate authority, Jesus Christ. I don't think anyone here will disagree, and I assume you quote this to say that perhaps we shouldn't go to church, with the pastors and decons etc expressing their authority? At this point I would say that the context of Matthew 23 is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees, who were not in the Body of Christ, and drowning in legalism and tradition.

Ephesisans in general is an excellent book to go to for this. You quoted part of chapter 4, describing that we all have different callings and we need to serve each other with these to come before the Lord in praise together. We go out to the saints and together we go up to God; in church we don't just have out little private "experience" with God. I think there's more to Ephesians 4 as well:

15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.​

As you said, the church is also to help Chrisitans not to get tossed back and forth by false teachings. The church does this by being united with Christ at the head, and as the cornerstone.

I think at this point it should be noted that many of these early churches were held in the homes of rich believers. A church is just a gathering of believers where the Spirit of God dwells (in all Christians). Let's go to Ephesians 2:

17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.​

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Also, as per the ToS I would ask you all to cite what version you quote - this is a legal requirement unless you are using the KJV or the YLT, which are in the public domain. I used the ESV.

 

[Alabaster]

Political organisation? What does that mean? Paul did describe a church structure but he was also very concerned with what actually happensi n church. And considering that was is described as the purpose and substance of going to church, why should we not go? We are saved for works of service (Eph 2:10) and this starts in the home and in the church, then reaching out to the nations to proclaim the name of the Lord.


I think I see what you're trying to say in quoting Matthew 23, that we have one ultimate authority, Jesus Christ. I don't think anyone here will disagree, and I assume you quote this to say that perhaps we shouldn't go to church, with the pastors and decons etc expressing their authority? At this point I would say that the context of Matthew 23 is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees, who were not in the Body of Christ, and drowning in legalism and tradition.

Ephesisans in general is an excellent book to go to for this. You quoted part of chapter 4, describing that we all have different callings and we need to serve each other with these to come before the Lord in praise together. We go out to the saints and together we go up to God; in church we don't just have out little private "experience" with God. I think there's more to Ephesians 4 as well:

15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
​

As you said, the church is also to help Chrisitans not to get tossed back and forth by false teachings. The church does this by being united with Christ at the head, and as the cornerstone.

I think at this point it should be noted that many of these early churches were held in the homes of rich believers. A church is just a gathering of believers where the Spirit of God dwells (in all Christians). Let's go to Ephesians 2:

17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
​

--------------

Also, as per the ToS I would ask you all to cite what version you quote - this is a legal requirement unless you are using the KJV or the YLT, which are in the public domain. I used the ESV.

 

[elijah23]

The church of God is the future bride to be of our Lord Jesus Christ... beginning at Pentecost, it consists of those who have placed their faith and trust in the precious shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and who God alone has baptized into His own body by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Would you agree that it’s a good idea for us all to be active in a local church?