Church

[Alabaster]

Unfortunately because of how we've come to use and understand terms like "church", it is a deeper matter. If what we mean by church is people, specifically Jesus' called ones, then it would be simple, BUT since the term 'church' provokes thoughts of a corporate institution run a hierchy of people that individuals must join in order to reap the blessings of God, we must distinguish.

Soooooooooooooo, the Body of the Anointed One, Christ, is equal to the people, His called out, and it is NOT equal to the corporate institution that many of His called ones happen to frequent.

 

[Alabaster]

But what of the local church?

We are the Church and we as local groups are called churches and we meet in places designated for assembly, whether homes or larger buildings that hold more people for larger assemblies and they are also called churches.

We must differentiate.

 

[francisdesales]

I think that we must recognize that there is a vast difference between what a church is, and what the christian community referenced in scripture was.

At the core, there isn't. There certainly are differences that one would expect from a 2000 year old organization. People reflect on the deeper meaning of the Bible. Different cultures have their own particular pious devotions. Saying there are "vast differences" is like saying that an acorn is vastly different than an oak tree...

Or a mustard seed, if you prefer.

As far a 'belonging to a church;' what church did the 1st century christians belong to? Did the Eunich of Acts 8 have to found a church in Ethiopia, then join it is order to be right?

It seems that they called themselves "catholic", "christian", "the Way". They named themselves to differentiate between other religious organizations, like Mithra and Gnostics and Essenes.

The community aspect of sainthood is something that is unavoidable, for a christians, we are commanded to love one another, bear one another's burdens, encourance one another, be hospitable to one another, etc. All of this can be done with or without the corporate institution we know as the church that Jesus, Paul, and the 1st century saint would probably not even recognize.

One cannot separate the two now, we are not dealing with a new religious outgrowth from scratch. The message has already been told to the world... The "corporate institution" is part of being "church". Naturally, on a large scale, such as with Roman Catholics or Lutherans, you will have a national/worldwide organization that is concerned with unity for the sake of the entire body.

But you can't avoid the natural flow of life. Even if you started from scratch, you will unavoidably go down the same roads that the early first century church took. And if you believe that the Church is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, we can be assured that this is not a bad thing, at the end of the day.

The rest is a question to Mike, so I'll not respond to it.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Unfortunately because of how we've come to use and understand terms like "church", it is a deeper matter. If what we mean by church is people, specifically Jesus' called ones, then it would be simple, BUT since the term 'church' provokes thoughts of a corporate institution run a hierchy of people that individuals must join in order to reap the blessings of God, we must distinguish.

Soooooooooooooo, the Body of the Anointed One, Christ, is equal to the people, His called out, and it is NOT equal to the corporate institution that many of His called ones happen to frequent.

"corporate entity" is ALL OVER the New Testament. You cannot escape it. Thus, I ask yet again, WHERE is the precedent for seeing a Church WITHOUT "corporate entity"? "Hierarchy"?

Clearly, we see elders and bishops at the head of geographically bound believers. Clearly, Paul is writing TO THEM. He didn't post "Ephesians" on the internet for convenient later downloading. As a corporate entity, he sent a "memo" to known leading members of the corporation, if you want to call the Church that.

The POINT of being "called out" is quite simply to be "a city on a hill". Can't do that in your living room on Sundays. Being called out implies that one GOES OUT TO an organized body.

Regards

 

[whitney]

The POINT of being "called out" is quite simply to be "a city on a hill". Can't do that in your living room on Sundays. Being called out implies that one GOES OUT TO an organized body.

Regards

Do you have any scripture, francis, that tells us "called out" means what you say it means?

God bless -

 

[Alabaster]

The POINT of being "called out" is quite simply to be "a city on a hill". Can't do that in your living room on Sundays. Being called out implies that one GOES OUT TO an organized body.

Regards

What about those in the first churches that met in homes? They were called out ones also. It matters not whether we meet in homes or in a school gymnasium, but it does matter that we meet.

'Called out' means we are called out from the world to be the sons and daughters of the Most High God.

 

[francisdesales]

Do you have any scripture, francis, that tells us "called out" means what you say it means?

God bless -

Well, I just got done reading Peter last week and something struck me as a fine definition of the elect:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light 1 Peter 2:9

To be "called out", to be of the elect is election to the Church, a visible, holy "nation", a PECULIAR people (not a vague idea of "believer" without defining "belief in what?"). This peculiar people is readily identifiable in history, time and space.

No doubt there are many more, but I like this one for now.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

What about those in the first churches that met in homes? They were called out ones also. It matters not whether we meet in homes or in a school gymnasium, but it does matter that we meet.

'Called out' means we are called out from the world to be the sons and daughters of the Most High God.

Agreed, they were called out TO a human group of people who worshiped God as one. They had one belief, one Lord, one baptism and one bread that they broke, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Romans knew about them and who their leaders were, so certainly, people were able to identify "the Church" as a visible community of men and women joined in love.

We are called out to the Church to be a visible manifestation of God's Love in the world.

Regards

 

[whitney]

Agreed, they were called out TO a human group of people who worshiped God as one. They had one belief, one Lord, one baptism and one bread that they broke, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Romans knew about them and who their leaders were, so certainly, people were able to identify "the Church" as a visible community of men and women joined in love.

We are called out to the Church to be a visible manifestation of God's Love in the world.

Regards

We are called out to BE the Church, we are not called out to the Catholic Church.

 

[francisdesales]

We are called out to BE the Church, we are not called out to the Catholic Church.

Explain the difference, please...

God desires that we are saved and come to the truth. Jesus was very concerned about Truth. He ensured that we could know truth by going to the Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth. The fullness (not completeness, and not that no one else has some truth) of the Truth is found only in the Catholic Church. If you were baptized in the name of the Trinity and in water, you are already part of the Catholic Church, by the way....

Regards

 

[whitney]

Explain the difference, please...

God desires that we are saved and come to the truth. Jesus was very concerned about Truth. He ensured that we could know truth by going to the Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth. The fullness (not completeness, and not that no one else has some truth) of the Truth is found only in the Catholic Church. If you were baptized in the name of the Trinity and in water, you are already part of the Catholic Church, by the way....

Regards

The Catholic Church does not have all the truth, the rituals they perform are not Bibical. We can find His truth in His Word through the teachings of the Holy Spirit, the reason He gave us the Bible.
The Catholic Church does not mean His Body, it simply is a sect of many religious institutions. I belong to the Church, not Catholicism.

 

[Drew]

The Catholic Church does not have all the truth, the rituals they perform are not Bibical.

Which rituals do you think are unBiblical? Please give specific Biblical arguments to support your position.

 

[whitney]

Which rituals do you think are unBiblical? Please give specific Biblical arguments to support your position.

I can't really give Bibical arguments because they can not be found in the Bible

Priest Ordinations
Calling someone a Pope (there is not a pope in the NT)
Calling someone Father

Matthew 23 9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven.


Eucharist (in the manner in which Catholics believe it to happen, it's not a physical eating/drinking of His flesh, it's a spiritual attitude)
Confessions
Infant baptisms
Praying to Mary and Saints
The entire mass, with all their holy vestments, altar, etc. it's repeating the OT all over again and it's unnecessary now.
Limbo/Pergatory

I might think of more later.

 

[Mike]

Can I advise that we don't go off in the direction of Catholicism? I believe the thread maintained the topic of church in general. Please keep the rules for Catholic discussion in mind going forward.

 

[francisdesales]

The Catholic Church does not have all the truth, the rituals they perform are not Bibical.

I thought I qualified my statement pretty well. Read it again carefully:

The fullness (not completeness, and not that no one else has some truth) of the Truth is found only in the Catholic Church.

No, the Catholic Church does not have all of the truth about God - NO ONE does. But when we consider "where can I find out most about God and what we know about Him today", we must look to the Catholic Church. Other people unaware of the Church's teachings have some truth, but not as much as we COULD know. And God does desire that we DO know the Truth.

As to rituals not in the Bible, you mean like celebrating the Eucharist? Which verse of the OT did the first Christians use to back up their Eucharistic celebration? Which verse of the OT did Peter and James use to discontinue circumcision amongst the People of God?

The "it must be in the bible before we do it" is a man-made rule, found NOWHERE in the bible itself. It really is a self-defeating idea, so I am at a loss to explain how so many people continue to believe this "tradition of men".

We can find His truth in His Word through the teachings of the Holy Spirit, the reason He gave us the Bible.

That's not the only place we can find the "teachings of the Holy Spirit". The Spirit of God continues to inhabit the Body as a Temple. How ELSE could the Church be the foundation of the Truth?

The Catholic Church does not mean His Body, it simply is a sect of many religious institutions. I belong to the Church, not Catholicism.

Were you baptized in water and the Spirit? If so, you are mysteriously and imperfectly Catholic. It just remains for you to continue that walk already begun.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Can I advise that we don't go off in the direction of Catholicism? I believe the thread maintained the topic of church in general. Please keep the rules for Catholic discussion in mind going forward.

Sorry, I just posted something on it. However, I would maintain that it is difficult to discuss "church" without bringing up the idea of Catholic, since the Creed states that the Church is "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic". By definition, the Church is Catholic, and absolutely limiting the subject in such a way is akin to saying "you can talk about God, but don't mention mercy or justice".

Regards

 

[whitney]

This is not a difficult question at all, if we decide to read what the Bible tells us about the church :
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church....

So the body of Christ is the church.

So then it's agreed! :yes

 

[Eventide]

Re: A marriage made in heaven...

The most staggering event of all events will be the marriage of the Lord Jesus Christ to His church.. as Rev 19 describes.. Paul tells us that this is a great mystery, which is like saying it's beyond our widest imaginations, and all that John could do when he saw the vision was to fall down and worship.

Marriage is a wonderous illustration of Christ and the church... how that a man shall leave his Father and Mother to be joined to his wife.. it's what our relationship to Christ should be like... that intimate.

Paul says that he has espoused us (the church of God) as a chaste virgin unto the Lord.

What an event that shall be.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: A marriage made in heaven...

The most staggering event of all events will be the marriage of the Lord Jesus Christ to His church.. as Rev 19 describes.. Paul tells us that this is a great mystery, which is like saying it's beyond our widest imaginations, and all that John could do when he saw the vision was to fall down and worship.

Marriage is a wonderous illustration of Christ and the church... how that a man shall leave his Father and Mother to be joined to his wife.. it's what our relationship to Christ should be like... that intimate.

Paul says that he has espoused us (the church of God) as a chaste virgin unto the Lord.

What an event that shall be.

Hallelujah!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

"corporate entity" is ALL OVER the New Testament. You cannot escape it. Thus, I ask yet again, WHERE is the precedent for seeing a Church WITHOUT "corporate entity"? "Hierarchy"?

Clearly, we see elders and bishops at the head of geographically bound believers. Clearly, Paul is writing TO THEM. He didn't post "Ephesians" on the internet for convenient later downloading. As a corporate entity, he sent a "memo" to known leading members of the corporation, if you want to call the Church that.

The POINT of being "called out" is quite simply to be "a city on a hill". Can't do that in your living room on Sundays. Being called out implies that one GOES OUT TO an organized body.

Regards

Scripture sets the precedent my friend. Elders were simply older individuals who were among Jesus' called out. Terms like 'bishop', 'pastor', and the such were derived from Greek terms which conveyed the idea of some being shephards or overseers. Later, as the organized corporate church began to really take shape in the early 2nd century, these terms were made into offices and possitions of authority within the christian brotherhood in direct violation of what Jesus instructed in places like Matthew 20 and Matthew 23.
Elders, according to the scriptures were not "rulers" the way many popular translations make them out to be, but were simply older saints and from among the elders, saints would volunteer to be overseers of their fellow brethren in their locally by being outstanding examples and by looking out for their fellow christians. These elders (who were not all overseers) were sort of like big brother and big sister figures to their christian brethren. They held no authority within or over the brotherhood.

Consider these translations of 1 Tim 5:17 and following:
1. from the Non Ecclesiastical NT
- Regard the older people who are outstanding examples as worthy of a double honorarium, especially those who are working in speaking and teaching. For the writing says, "You will not muzzle an ox that is treading grain," and, "The worker is worthy of his wage."

2. NIV
- The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”

3. NASD
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]- 17(A)The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who (C)work hard at preaching and teaching.
18For the Scripture says, "(D)YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "(E)The laborer is worthy of his wages."

4. KJV
- 17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

5. 2001 Translation
- Let the elders who take the lead in a fine way be considered worthy of a double honor… especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. 18 For the Scriptures tell us: ‘You shouldn’t muzzle a bull when it’s threshing grain,’ and, ‘A worker deserves his pay.’

As you can see, these versions render the task that elders took upon themselves much differently. It is up to us to do the research and try to find out which translators most accurately communicated the idea of the inspired write correctly.
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