Church

[whitney]

That is true, we don't have all the truth, no human does. God hasn't told us everything. I am merely stating that we have access to certain knowledge that He HAS revealed, as it was His Will that we do know some things about salvation and freedom.

Regards

God does want us to have ALL truth and that is why He said to seek Him, we need knowledge.
It's difficult however because we are presented with all different kinds of opinions and teachings, so on top of trying to find His truth, we have to weed through all the garbage.
Blessings -

 

[francisdesales]

God does want us to have ALL truth and that is why He said to seek Him, we need knowledge.
It's difficult however because we are presented with all different kinds of opinions and teachings, so on top of trying to find His truth, we have to weed through all the garbage.
Blessings -

which is fortunate for us that we can know where to find reliable information, rather than rely on the whims of men. Think about it. Doesn't divinely-given revelation require an infallible teaching authority to ensure that it remains unchanged?

I think to discuss this more, we will have to go to the 1 on 1 debate forum. I am not sure why the posts are taking a long time to show up.

Regards

 

[whitney]

which is fortunate for us that we can know where to find reliable information, rather than rely on the whims of men. Think about it. Doesn't divinely-given revelation require an infallible teaching authority to ensure that it remains unchanged?

I think to discuss this more, we will have to go to the 1 on 1 debate forum. I am not sure why the posts are taking a long time to show up.

Regards

And as I pointed out a few posts back, not even the Catholic Church is w/out disagreement on their own doctrine.

*Not sure why your post took time to show up, mine showed up right away.

 

[francisdesales]

And as I pointed out a few posts back, not even the Catholic Church is w/out disagreement on their own doctrine.

*Not sure why your post took time to show up, mine showed up right away.

You are confusing the doctrine of the Church with some dissenting liberals who are virtually Protestant.

I posted twice and it just now showed up, wasn't there a few hours ago.

Regards

 

[whitney]

You are confusing the doctrine of the Church with some dissenting liberals who are virtually Protestant.

He doesn't sound like a Protestant to me, you keep him. ;)

 

[francisdesales]

He doesn't sound like a Protestant to me, you keep him. ;)

The root of the word "Protestant" is "protest", is it not?

Reform is part of the life of the Church, but there comes a time when obedience is in order and obstinancy is put aside for our own spiritual growth and to follow the dictates of Paul regarding schism and dissension.

Regards

 

[whitney]

The root of the word "Protestant" is "protest", is it not?

Reform is part of the life of the Church, but there comes a time when obedience is in order and obstinancy is put aside for our own spiritual growth and to follow the dictates of Paul regarding schism and dissension.

Regards

I do agree with this. There is a community project going on here that I am involved with, 35 different denominational churches are involved, along with several Christian companies, differing doctrines completely set aside to advance His Kingdom together, reaching many people who do not know who Jesus is. It's awesome!

 

[francisdesales]

I do agree with this. There is a community project going on here that I am involved with, 35 different denominational churches are involved, along with several Christian companies, differing doctrines completely set aside to advance His Kingdom together, reaching many people who do not know who Jesus is. It's awesome!

God be praised, I am glad to see you are reaching across denominational boundaries and conducting the work of Jesus Christ.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

God be praised, I am glad to see you are reaching across denominational boundaries and conducting the work of Jesus Christ.

Regards

There is absolutely NO TRUTH with that statement. While it is true that Christ REQUIRES UNITY, it will never be His will as you are stating it. 'Denominational lines'.

Christ has only TWO groups seen in Matt. 6:24 His ones in One Faith (Eph. 4"5) & satans as in Rev. 17:1-5 from 'mother' to all of her coming home daughters which are the Abomination of the Earth ones as the [Inspired verse Documents!]

And yes as the TV commercials run, so are the daughters running on back home.

And this is just Gospel fact with nothing to get excited about, just relax, we both will do what is required from one of the TWO groups Masters.

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

There is absolutely NO TRUTH with that statement. While it is true that Christ REQUIRES UNITY, it will never be His will as you are stating it. 'Denominational lines'.

Christ has only TWO groups seen in Matt. 6:24 His ones in One Faith (Eph. 4"5) & satans as in Rev. 17:1-5 from 'mother' to all of her coming home daughters which are the Abomination of the Earth ones as the [Inspired verse Documents!]

And yes as the TV commercials run, so are the daughters running on back home.

And this is just Gospel fact with nothing to get excited about, just relax, we both will do what is required from one of the TWO groups Masters.

--Elijah

Elijah,

You are misunderstanding my post. The point I am making is that Whitney is transcending denominational lines in the name of doing the work of Christ.

Regards

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

My friend, these "terms" are in the first century-written Bible. Do you remember that Christianity was initially Jewish living in under Roman rule - and it would seem natural that they would emulate some sort of authoritative structure, which was all around them. You are being historically anachronistic. There simply is no precedent for Christians existing outside of a community of authoritatively led believers, such as Paul or Timothy or elders.

Actually these terms are not in the older manuscripts. Terms like church, deacon, and bishop are completely foreign to the original texts of scripture. The words were all added to enforce the ecclesiastical paradym and empower the church and in turn surpress the individual.
In scripture, those who were called christians WERE the community. They were a community of brethren whose head was Jesus, ALONE. The community was built upon Jesus, the cornerstone and its foundation was laid by the prophets of old and Jesus' sent ones (apostles) [Eph 2:19-20]. The apostles were given the task of laying the foundation (recall the great commission) but had no authority over the saints.

Again, you are being anachronistic, as if an elder had the same "vote" as any other American (oops..., that's what you are thinking, right?). Clearly, "elders" were people to be respected and listened to. Must I cite Scriptures to that effect? Elders more than just older Christians. They held leadership positions, laid hands upon other Christians to send them forth to preach.

That is not up for debate at all, the older saints in the faith, (both male and female) were to highly regarded just as the elders of ancient Israel were. This regard was NOT because they held an office of authority, but rather because of their example and experience. Were they leaders, YES, did that leadership give them authority over the brethren, NO. They literally led by example.

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Leaders are wonderful examples. The two do not cancel each other out. Now, if you look long enough, I am sure you'll find a translation that fits your agenda. But clearly, the bulk of ancient testimony tells us that ancient Christianity was not a democracy. Men were put in charge - and were held responsible for teaching and preaching. Paul makes it clear that he has authority over communities. He leaves people in his place, Timothy and Titus, to aid the Church. These Pastoral letters are written to THEM so as to help them be good leaders. We even have the office of the bishop described, the "job requirements" are laid out.

I still find nothing you said to convince me of ANY verse that speaks of Christians existing without a community with leaders.

Regards

It's not about this translation verses that translation, it is about honesty, and honestly, there exhsts no translation that I am aware of that is 100% accurate and correct, but there a countless translation errors that we should be quick to point out when for a fact, it has been established that they are incorrect.
As you said, there exists no scripture that says there were no leaders within christian communities, but we must not make those leader out to be what they were not intended by Jesus to be. Giving leaders authoritys over other saints clearly VIOLATES the edicts of Jesus.

 

[francisdesales]

It's not about this translation verses that translation, it is about honesty, and honestly, there exhsts no translation that I am aware of that is 100% accurate and correct, but there a countless translation errors that we should be quick to point out when for a fact, it has been established that they are incorrect.

Which basically states that we must have an authoritative Church, otherwise, wander around aimlessly while we worry about inaccurate translations and never know what the Word of God means...!

As you said, there exists no scripture that says there were no leaders within christian communities, but we must not make those leader out to be what they were not intended by Jesus to be. Giving leaders authoritys over other saints clearly VIOLATES the edicts of Jesus.

I disagree, the Bible is full of people in authority over others. Do the words of Paul sound like he considers himself an authoritative figure amongst the churches he writes to? He calls the Galatians fools. He casts out another Christian in 1 Cor and allows him to return in 2 Cor. We see that him and others laid hands upon other people for the purpose of sending THEM out. People didn't send themselves out. Paul measured his gospel with the gospel taught by the apostles in Jerusalem. They Jerusalem council made authoritative decisions.

Gosh, I could go on and on. To miss "authority" in the NT is to not have read it...!!! Clearly, yours is an example of wishful thinking.

Regards

 

[Hardcastle]

To miss "authority" in the NT is to not have read it...!!!

Of course, the authority noted by the leaders of the apostolic church in the NT and the authority given the Roman Pope as he lords of the RCC are worlds apart.

 

[francisdesales]

Of course, the authority noted by the leaders of the apostolic church in the NT and the authority given the Roman Pope as he lords of the RCC are worlds apart.

That's simply propaganda that is not true in real life. If the Pope "lorded it over everyone" like you claim, we'd see excommunications left and right, bishops sacked over covering up child abuse and many other such things. Admittedly, it can be a fine line, but clearly, those who are subjected to an authoritative decision that they don't like will moan and complain about "being lorded over...". It is the human condition, and pride doesn't take well to being told what to do, even if done in the spirit of love and fellowship. You should know that from life experience. None of us like to be told we are wrong.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

How about becoming a member of the body of Christ which is His church..

The NT says that there is one way in which a person can become a member of the body of Christ.. and that is by being born again from above by God, by the power of the Holy Spirit. The parable of the Sower shows us exactly how this happens and it's the same in every case... each and every believer is born again by that incorruptible seed which lives and abides for ever.. and that of course is the word of God.

Being born again is having Christ born in you, within your earthen vessel by the power of the Holy Spirit. MAn cannot do it, God alone does it because He alone knows a heart of repentance and trust in His Son.

In Eph 1 the Apostle Paul tells us that it was after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel of our salvation, and after we believed, that it was God who sealed us with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance (in Him) unto the day of redemption.. unto the praise of His glory !

 

[francisdesales]

How about becoming a member of the body of Christ which is His church..

The NT says that there is one way in which a person can become a member of the body of Christ.. and that is by being born again from above by God, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Which is by water and the Spirit, baptism. And so the Catholic Church recognizes that those who have been licitly baptized are part of the Catholic Church in some mysterious way, even if they belong to another community of faith, say the Lutheran community. There is only one Church, it is Catholic - (not Lutheran, Anglican, etc...) however, many belong to that one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church and not fully recognize their affiliation with the one faith, one Lord, one baptism. We pray that some day, they join us at the table to celebrate the One Eucharist. But they still are our brothers in the one Church. This is laid out pretty clearly in Lumen Gentium, the Vatican 2 document that expresses the Church telling the world who it is.

The parable of the Sower shows us exactly how this happens and it's the same in every case... each and every believer is born again by that incorruptible seed which lives and abides for ever.. and that of course is the word of God.

The Word of God is a Person, God in the flesh, not writings in a book.

Being born again is having Christ born in you, within your earthen vessel by the power of the Holy Spirit. MAn cannot do it, God alone does it because He alone knows a heart of repentance and trust in His Son.

No argument here.

In Eph 1 the Apostle Paul tells us that it was after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel of our salvation, and after we believed, that it was God who sealed us with the Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance (in Him) unto the day of redemption.. unto the praise of His glory !

Did you get to Ephesians 3 where it says that the CHURCH reveals God's mysterious plan, not the Bible? No one baptizes themselves. I can't help but think you are pushing an individualistic version of the Gospel, which was clearly a communional Church in society, a human and divine organization, just as Its builder, Christ Jesus, Who truly was and remains both flesh and spirit, human and divine.

We REALLY ARE the Body of Christ. When the Church acts, Christ is indeed acting.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Which basically states that we must have an authoritative Church, otherwise, wander around aimlessly while we worry about inaccurate translations and never know what the Word of God means...!

I disagree, the Bible is full of people in authority over others. Do the words of Paul sound like he considers himself an authoritative figure amongst the churches he writes to? He calls the Galatians fools. He casts out another Christian in 1 Cor and allows him to return in 2 Cor. We see that him and others laid hands upon other people for the purpose of sending THEM out. People didn't send themselves out. Paul measured his gospel with the gospel taught by the apostles in Jerusalem. They Jerusalem council made authoritative decisions.

Gosh, I could go on and on. To miss "authority" in the NT is to not have read it...!!! Clearly, yours is an example of wishful thinking.

Regards

satan never stops 'trying' to amaze me with his church! Surely 'ALL' (see Heb. 13:8-9 with Inspiration & not 2 Cor. 4:2's Twisting!) that Christ says in the verses.. 'Jesus Christ the same Yesterday, TODAY, [AND FOREVER'] & to '[BE NOT CARRIED ABOUT WITH DIVERS AND STRANGE DOCTRINES].' are His AUTHORITY!


And 'AUTHORITY'?? the mother of ALL APOSTATE DAUGHTERS (Rev. 17:1-5) and that is indeed Prophesied TRUTH which tell her children to come on back home to mommy because she has some kind of authority. (even in todays TV adds!)

And the REAL AUTHORITIVE TRUTH is not satan's counterfiet, but the Godheads INSPIRATION of ...

Joshua 7
'..because [THEY WERE ACCURSED:
NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANY MORE, EXCEPT YOU DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU'.]


And these Rev. 17:1-5 mother & her daughter 'churchs' are so polluted as seen in DAILY PUBLIC PRINT & on world Newscast's, that even ones in prison are wondering how you keep from being caught also? Then some of them read 2 Thess. 2:9-11 and find that JUST BEFORE CHRIST COMES AGAIN THAT THES ONES WILL BECOME [SPIRITUALLY BRAIN DEAD!]

And these ex/SONS OF THUNDER will replace (Amos. 9:13, Jer. 12:5) these COP/OUTS FAKES!


--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

Which is by water and the Spirit, baptism. And so the Catholic Church recognizes that those who have been licitly baptized are part of the Catholic Church in some mysterious way, even if they belong to another community of faith, say the Lutheran community. There is only one Church, it is Catholic - (not Lutheran, Anglican, etc...) however, many belong to that one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church and not fully recognize their affiliation with the one faith, one Lord, one baptism. We pray that some day, they join us at the table to celebrate the One Eucharist. But they still are our brothers in the one Church. This is laid out pretty clearly in Lumen Gentium, the Vatican 2 document that expresses the Church telling the world who it is.

We are washed by the water of the word... that is the word of God and Peter affirms this exact thing... telling us exactly how each and every person was born again, and that is by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever.

Spirit gives birth to Spirit, and the words which He speaks are Spirit and they are life. He has the words of eternal life.

The Word of God is a Person, God in the flesh, not writings in a book.

Are you saying that the Holy Scriptures are not the word of God ?

Did you get to Ephesians 3 where it says that the CHURCH reveals God's mysterious plan, not the Bible?

Has your church exhausted all there is to know in the living and powerful word of God as it is contained in the Holy scriptures ?

No one baptizes themselves. I can't help but think you are pushing an individualistic version of the Gospel, which was clearly a communional Church in society, a human and divine organization, just as Its builder, Christ Jesus, Who truly was and remains both flesh and spirit, human and divine.

Who said that they did ? This alone is the working of God when He baptizes us into that one body (His) by the same Spirit.

We REALLY ARE the Body of Christ. When the Church acts, Christ is indeed acting.

And there are members beyond counting who have nothing to do with the RCC and they are just as essential as any other members of His one body. Arguing about being the one true church doesn't make any sense while knowing that His body has no boundaries within denominational lines.

 

[francisdesales]

satan never stops 'trying' to amaze me with his church! Surely 'ALL' (see Heb. 13:8-9 with Inspiration & not 2 Cor. 4:2's Twisting!) that Christ says in the verses.. 'Jesus Christ the same Yesterday, TODAY, [AND FOREVER'] & to '[BE NOT CARRIED ABOUT WITH DIVERS AND STRANGE DOCTRINES].' are His AUTHORITY!


And 'AUTHORITY'?? the mother of ALL APOSTATE DAUGHTERS (Rev. 17:1-5) and that is indeed Prophesied TRUTH which tell her children to come on back home to mommy because she has some kind of authority. (even in todays TV adds!)

And the REAL AUTHORITIVE TRUTH is not satan's counterfiet, but the Godheads INSPIRATION of ...

Joshua 7
'..because [THEY WERE ACCURSED:
NEITHER WILL I BE WITH YOU ANY MORE, EXCEPT YOU DESTROY THE ACCURSED FROM AMONG YOU'.]


And these Rev. 17:1-5 mother & her daughter 'churchs' are so polluted as seen in DAILY PUBLIC PRINT & on world Newscast's, that even ones in prison are wondering how you keep from being caught also? Then some of them read 2 Thess. 2:9-11 and find that JUST BEFORE CHRIST COMES AGAIN THAT THES ONES WILL BECOME [SPIRITUALLY BRAIN DEAD!]

And these ex/SONS OF THUNDER will replace (Amos. 9:13, Jer. 12:5) these COP/OUTS FAKES!


--Elijah

As usual, I have no idea what you are talking about...

 

[francisdesales]

We are washed by the water of the word... that is the word of God and Peter affirms this exact thing... telling us exactly how each and every person was born again, and that is by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever.

We are "washed" by a living giving presence of the Spirit of God, sent by the Word of God, not by the "bible". The incorruptible Word of God is the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

The Bible itself is a book subject to corruption. Various translators have at times corrupted the meaning of the text.

Spirit gives birth to Spirit, and the words which He speaks are Spirit and they are life. He has the words of eternal life.

The "Word of Life" is the Word of God. Jesus Christ. The TEACHINGS, whether orally or in written form, LEAD to life, but life itself is Jesus Christ, the way, the truth, and THE LIFE.

Are you saying that the Holy Scriptures are not the word of God ?

They are the inspired words of God, but the Bible is not the ACTUAL WORD. Nor is the Bible the ENTIRE body of teaching that Jesus Christ gave us.

Has your church exhausted all there is to know in the living and powerful word of God as it is contained in the Holy scriptures ?

No. Of course not.

Who said that they did ? This alone is the working of God when He baptizes us into that one body (His) by the same Spirit.

It doesn't happen without the Body of Christ, the Church, participating in that act.

And there are members beyond counting who have nothing to do with the RCC and they are just as essential as any other members of His one body. Arguing about being the one true church doesn't make any sense while knowing that His body has no boundaries within denominational lines.

Other denominations are not "Church". Those members may be part of THE Church, but there is only one Church established by Christ. Its members cross denominational boundaries. Fullest membership exists in only one place, though. Christ continues to work visibly through His Body, most fully through sacramental, visible actions.

Regards