Church

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Which basically states that we must have an authoritative Church, otherwise, wander around aimlessly while we worry about inaccurate translations and never know what the Word of God means...!


How does the fact that some errors have been made in the translating of the scriptures mean that an outside authority like the church must then be empowered to decide on what doctrine and God's will is?


I disagree, the Bible is full of people in authority over others. Do the words of Paul sound like he considers himself an authoritative figure amongst the churches he writes to? He calls the Galatians fools. He casts out another Christian in 1 Cor and allows him to return in 2 Cor. We see that him and others laid hands upon other people for the purpose of sending THEM out. People didn't send themselves out. Paul measured his gospel with the gospel taught by the apostles in Jerusalem. They Jerusalem council made authoritative decisions.

We see Paul, who himself was an apostle like Peter and the 11 who were the foundation of the christian community as scripture says they were, being able to convey spiritual gifts by the laying on of his hands. Please note that it was ONLY the apostles who were able to do this and the scriptures tell us NOTHING of apostolic succession.

Gosh, I could go on and on. To miss "authority" in the NT is to not have read it...!!! Clearly, yours is an example of wishful thinking.

Regards

As for the Jerusalem council of Acts 15 we cannot lose sight of the issue they dealt with. The faith had recently, (Acts 10) been extended to the gentile nations and the Jews shortly thereafter went out from Jerusalem and began "Judizing" by trying to get the gentile saints to observe Jewish laws and customs. In response to the issues this caused, the apostles and older ones (elders) got together and responded thusly:

22 Then the Apostles, elders, and the whole congregation were all in favor of sending men to Antioch, who were [then] chosen from among them. So, along with Paul and BarNabas, there was Judas (who was called BarSabbas) and Silas… leading men among the brothers. 23 And by their hand they wrote: ‘[From] the Apostles and the older brothers, to those brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, who came from the nations… Rejoice! 24 Since we’ve heard that some who came from us have stirred things up there with speeches and have tried to change your lives (although we didn’t give them any such instructions), 25 we’ve arrived at a unanimous conclusion: We’ve decided to choose men to send to you along with our loved BarNabas and Paul… 26 men who have been willing to give their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One! 27 So, we are sending Judas and Silas, who can explain these things to you.
28 ‘It’s apparent to the Holy Breath and to us, that we shouldn’t put any burdens on you other than these necessary things: 29 Stay away from things that are sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things that are strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you stay away from these things, you’ll do well. Good health to you!’

 

[francisdesales]

As for the Jerusalem council of Acts 15 we cannot lose sight of the issue they dealt with. The faith had recently, (Acts 10) been extended to the gentile nations and the Jews shortly thereafter went out from Jerusalem and began "Judizing" by trying to get the gentile saints to observe Jewish laws and customs. In response to the issues this caused, the apostles and older ones (elders) got together and responded thusly:

I think you are spinning your wheels in denial, here, Truth over Tradition. Acts 15 is a prime example of authority in action.


It seems perfectly clear that a body of churchmen got together to address the issue, because there were some "supposed brothers" who were not sent by the Jerusalem elders, that were stirring up the Gentiles with scandalous doctrines - that they must become Jews and be circumcised.

It is undeniable that the Church spoke authoritatively on this issue, and claimed that the Spirit of God also agreed with them. What is interesting is that the sola scripturists would have never went for the Apostles' rulings, since "it wasn't in the Bible". Yet, the Church still decreed that "no one is required to be circumcised anymore".

Regards

 

[Jake]

As usual, I have no idea what you are talking about...

You do not know because Elijah uses the Word, He knows what the Word says and He knows what it means, why would we want to use anything else?

Let me decipher it for you, seems how you can not understand the Word. He said the Catholic church was evil and the harlot.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I think you are spinning your wheels in denial, here, Truth over Tradition. Acts 15 is a prime example of authority in action.


It seems perfectly clear that a body of churchmen got together to address the issue, because there were some "supposed brothers" who were not sent by the Jerusalem elders, that were stirring up the Gentiles with scandalous doctrines - that they must become Jews and be circumcised.

It is undeniable that the Church spoke authoritatively on this issue, and claimed that the Spirit of God also agreed with them. What is interesting is that the sola scripturists would have never went for the Apostles' rulings, since "it wasn't in the Bible". Yet, the Church still decreed that "no one is required to be circumcised anymore".

Regards

What you seem to be over looking is the fact that "sola scriptura" was INPOSSIBLE during this period because the scriptures had not been completed. At that time you still had the apostles and those whom they laid hands on who were "gifted" with power from the Spirit to CONFIRM that the words they spoke were from God (Hebrew 2:3-4).

and if we are unconcerned about the salvation that was spoken of by the mouth of the Lord and which was verified for us by those who heard him; then how can we escape such a terrible thing?
4 Why, even God Himself joined in this testimony by providing signs, omens, many powerful deeds, and by distributing His Holy Breath as He wished.

Also recall the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:

8 love never fails.
However, the [gift of] prophesying will be done away with; the [gift of] speaking in [foreign] languages will stop; and the [gift of miraculous] knowledge will be done away with; 9 because, now we only have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially. 10 But when the perfect thing arrives, the partial thing will be done away with.

 

[Elijah674]

You do not know because Elijah uses the Word, He knows what the Word says and He knows what it means, why would we want to use anything else?

Let me decipher it for you, seems how you can not understand the Word. He said the Catholic church was evil and the harlot.

Are you talking about my post? If so, it is Rev. 17:1-5 that says...
'.... THE MOTHER of HARLOTS AND A ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH.' Not me. That is the Holy Spirits Inspiration from John's pen!

And who argues with rome being the momy whore with [todays] daughters all chasing after the pope? And who has a more whorish priesthood than is almost daily seen documented in the News???

And there has never been the decline in membership from these groups into [HOME CHURCH'S] to my knowledge as today! Even Home Schooling is seen as mandatory. Here in my neck of the woods there are little church's popping up all over the place, in store fronts or where ever.!

So: Surely Rev. 18:4 has some doing as God REQUIRES..
'And I heard another voice [from heaven], saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE], that ye [BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES.]'

And if that does not bring to ones attention the verses of 2 Thess. 2:1-4 last hour? Most likely nothing will.

And surely the priesthood of mother rome is today's documented cess/pool of the world! And to stay yoked in membership is being a PARTAKER OF ALL THE STUFF! (as documented!) And that 'IS THE CHURCH' huh? And the membership still there is like driving her get away car, by still supporting the stuff!

And the other poster? 'It' knows exactly what God has Documented!

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

What you seem to be over looking is the fact that "sola scriptura" was INPOSSIBLE during this period because the scriptures had not been completed.

There is no paradigm of sola scriptura at Jerusalem in 50 AD, but NOT because it was "impossible"!!!

These Christians DID have a Bible, thus, sola scriptura WAS INDEED possible. The OT. Now, IF we had sola scripturists present at Jerusalem, certainly, they would have cited chapter and verse in Genesis and the Mosaic Law as commands from God, written in the Bible itself. Not quite what happened, huh?

We have absolutely no evidence that these men KNEW they were going to write a NT later on, and we CERTAINLY have nothing in writing that all of their previous oral teachings would either be abrogated or swallowed up in the written NT.

Thus, your statement is begging the question. The men ON THE GROUND made an authoritative decision based upon the power given to them by Jesus Christ, who they believed was God in the flesh. They saw circumcision as a shadow of the things to come with Christ. Not that the Bible present told them that. Jesus told them that through the Spirit of God. And the Spirit of God continues to indwell within the Church. This same Spirit continues to give us leaders to perform such tasks when a particular heresy rears its devisive head among Christians.

At that time you still had the apostles and those whom they laid hands on who were "gifted" with power from the Spirit to CONFIRM that the words they spoke were from God (Hebrew 2:3-4).

What is the expiration date of the Holy Spirit acting in this manner? Where is the verse - being that you are a sola scripturist - that tells us "as of 108 AD, the Holy Spirit will no longer pass through the elder's hands"???

Also recall the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:

Authority is an act of love, when done properly. Some ancient commentators note the co-existence of Love and Authority in the last chapter of John, with Jesus speaking about John, the disciple He loved, and Peter, the leader of the Church.

It is not necessary to provide a false dichotomy between love and authority. Love can co-exist with authority. I presume your mother and father practised this while you were growing up???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You do not know because Elijah uses the Word, He knows what the Word says and He knows what it means, why would we want to use anything else?

Let me decipher it for you, seems how you can not understand the Word. He said the Catholic church was evil and the harlot.

Hey, did someone let you out of your room again?

 

[Jake]

Hey, did someone let you out of your room again?

Did you mean my cage?

I guess so because here I am again.

 

[francisdesales]

Did you mean my cage?

I guess so because here I am again.

Ah well.

 

[jasoncran]

what does the whore of babylon have to do with this thread, church????????

absolutely nothing.

 

[Hardcastle]

That's simply propaganda that is not true in real life. If the Pope "lorded it over everyone" like you claim, we'd see excommunications left and right, bishops sacked over covering up child abuse and many other such things.

Let's try to remain in reality my friend. The abuse of Christians via papal authority runs a long bloody line in the historical record. Educate yourself.

 

[Jake]

Are you talking about my post? If so, it is Rev. 17:1-5 that says...
'.... THE MOTHER of HARLOTS AND A ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH.' Not me. That is the Holy Spirits Inspiration from John's pen!

And who argues with rome being the momy whore with [todays] daughters all chasing after the pope? And who has a more whorish priesthood than is almost daily seen documented in the News???

And there has never been the decline in membership from these groups into [HOME CHURCH'S] to my knowledge as today! Even Home Schooling is seen as mandatory. Here in my neck of the woods there are little church's popping up all over the place, in store fronts or where ever.!

So: Surely Rev. 18:4 has some doing as God REQUIRES..
'And I heard another voice [from heaven], saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE], that ye [BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES.]'

And if that does not bring to ones attention the verses of 2 Thess. 2:1-4 last hour? Most likely nothing will.

And surely the priesthood of mother rome is today's documented cess/pool of the world! And to stay yoked in membership is being a PARTAKER OF ALL THE STUFF! (as documented!) And that 'IS THE CHURCH' huh? And the membership still there is like driving her get away car, by still supporting the stuff!

And the other poster? 'It' knows exactly what God has Documented!

--Elijah

Correct, Elijah.
A mod doesn't want this to be discussed in this thread due to it being off topic, just wanted to let you know - you are right on! When we read the Word, we stay on the straight and narrow, huh?

 

[Eventide]

We are "washed" by a living giving presence of the Spirit of God, sent by the Word of God, not by the "bible". The incorruptible Word of God is the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Really ? Maybe the parable of the Sower was all wrong then... maybe the good seed isn't the word of God as the Lord says... who should I believe, you or the living and powerful word of God which abides for ever.

The Bible itself is a book subject to corruption. Various translators have at times corrupted the meaning of the text.

The words which He speaks are Spirit and they are life... are you suggesting that the spiritual nature of the word of God is corruptible ?

They are the inspired words of God, but the Bible is not the ACTUAL WORD. Nor is the Bible the ENTIRE body of teaching that Jesus Christ gave us.

So here it is folks... a blatant denial that the holy scriptures are the word of God.

No. Of course not.

So if your assembly hasn't exhausted all there is to know in the holy scriptures, then they're not really any different than any other assembly, are they ?

Other denominations are not "Church". Those members may be part of THE Church, but there is only one Church established by Christ. Its members cross denominational boundaries. Fullest membership exists in only one place, though. Christ continues to work visibly through His Body, most fully through sacramental, visible actions.

Regards

Oh, so your church has the fullest membership of the body of Christ... it must be difficult living this lie and coming up with all this stuff just to be special and be the one true church... what's the point.. are you that deluded to think that you're any better than anyone else ?

 

[francisdesales]

Let's try to remain in reality my friend. The abuse of Christians via papal authority runs a long bloody line in the historical record. Educate yourself.

Hardcastle,

I am fully aware of the history of papal abuse of authority. I am also aware of Protestant pastor history of abuses. Both are a sad state of affairs in Christianity.

I am certain Jesus knew this would happen - there are weeds in the field. It doesn't defeat the idea of authority in the Church, however.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Really ? Maybe the parable of the Sower was all wrong then... maybe the good seed isn't the word of God as the Lord says... who should I believe, you or the living and powerful word of God which abides for ever.

The parable of the sower speaks of grace, God's Word, falling upon us to vivify us, not books from the Bible. The parable is speaking of concepts of love and mercy, not pages and letters.

The words which He speaks are Spirit and they are life... are you suggesting that the spiritual nature of the word of God is corruptible ?

The letters of the Bible can be corrupted. I am speaking of the written letters in a book. We don't have to go very far to find translations that change or add words or meaning to verses, based upon the translator's bias or access to the variety of ancient codices.

What cannot be corrupted is the message, the Gospel. This does not refer to the written letters of Mark, Matthew and so forth, but the message delivered by the Church - to repent and be baptized, etc...

So here it is folks... a blatant denial that the holy scriptures are the word of God.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. The actual Word of God is Jesus Christ. See John 1:1

So if your assembly hasn't exhausted all there is to know in the holy scriptures, then they're not really any different than any other assembly, are they ?

God has not revealed everything simultaneously to His Church. God's revelation is like a mine that we explore.

Oh, so your church has the fullest membership of the body of Christ... it must be difficult living this lie and coming up with all this stuff just to be special and be the one true church... what's the point.. are you that deluded to think that you're any better than anyone else ?

I didn't say "has the fullest membership of the Body". I said it offers the fullness of what Christ established. For example, Christ's living and actual presence in the Eucharist. You don't have that. Not saying you don't have access to Christ, but it is not at the same potential as the Catholic Church. A true lover of Jesus Christ would WANT to have the fullest access to Him, I would think...

Regards

 

[Eventide]

The parable of the sower speaks of grace, God's Word, falling upon us to vivify us, not books from the Bible. The parable is speaking of concepts of love and mercy, not pages and letters.

So you're saying that the Lord was wrong, and that He isn't sowing His word ?

What cannot be corrupted is the message, the Gospel. This does not refer to the written letters of Mark, Matthew and so forth, but the message delivered by the Church - to repent and be baptized, etc...

And here you're saying that the word of God as contained in the Holy scriptures is not spiritual ?

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. The actual Word of God is Jesus Christ. See John 1:1

I know that, and you deny that the Holy scriptures are the word of God.

God has not revealed everything simultaneously to His Church. God's revelation is like a mine that we explore.

And again, your assembly is no different than all others who continue to mine its limitless wealth within the holy scriptures.

I didn't say "has the fullest membership of the Body". I said it offers the fullness of what Christ established. For example, Christ's living and actual presence in the Eucharist. You don't have that. Not saying you don't have access to Christ, but it is not at the same potential as the Catholic Church. A true lover of Jesus Christ would WANT to have the fullest access to Him, I would think...

Regards

Oh so if I wanted full access to the Lord Jesus Christ, I need to go to your assembly... ? ? ? Sounds delusional to me.

 

[francisdesales]

So you're saying that the Lord was wrong, and that He isn't sowing His word ?

No, you are wrong. You are misunderstanding what Jesus means by "the Word". It is NOT pages of a book that had yet been written... :p

And here you're saying that the word of God as contained in the Holy scriptures is not spiritual ?

What do you mean by "spiritual"? Before I answer that and fall into some trap, I better know what you mean first...

I know that, and you deny that the Holy scriptures are the word of God.

That's ridiculous, Eventide. I don't deny that the Holy Scripture are the Word of God.

However, they are not the completeness of the Word, nor are they the "Word that falls as seed upon men". As described above, yours is a misunderstanding of what Jesus is tallking about. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, in the flesh. His teachings are the "Word that falls as a seed". It is the teachings of love and mercy and forgiveness, not Matthew Chapter 15:14, or whatever. Those words relate THE WORD. But no one (I would think) believes that little letters fall upon them from the heavens...

And again, your assembly is no different than all others who continue to mine its limitless wealth within the holy scriptures.

We all seek to mine the wealth of Sacred Scriptures. I am not refering to any differences between us in that aspect. Protestants have a love of Scriptures, I do not deny that. Praise the Lord they retain SOME of the early Church's traditions. However, as they further multiply and divide, who knows in which direction they will go...

Oh so if I wanted full access to the Lord Jesus Christ, I need to go to your assembly... ? ? ? Sounds delusional to me.

You are welcome to join us and be fools for Christ with us...

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

i am protestent(pentacostal) and its obvious in the writing of prophecies that the entire bible cant be the word of god spoken of john 1:1.

that can only be the man christ jesus.

 

[francisdesales]

i am protestent(pentacostal) and its obvious in the writing of prophecies that the entire bible cant be the word of god spoken of john 1:1.

that can only be the man christ jesus.

Agreed. Jesus is God, not the bible. We worship the Word of God, Jesus Christ, not a book.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

No, you are wrong. You are misunderstanding what Jesus means by "the Word". It is NOT pages of a book that had yet been written... :p



What do you mean by "spiritual"? Before I answer that and fall into some trap, I better know what you mean first...



That's ridiculous, Eventide. I don't deny that the Holy Scripture are the Word of God.

However, they are not the completeness of the Word, nor are they the "Word that falls as seed upon men". As described above, yours is a misunderstanding of what Jesus is tallking about. Jesus Christ is the Word of God, in the flesh. His teachings are the "Word that falls as a seed". It is the teachings of love and mercy and forgiveness, not Matthew Chapter 15:14, or whatever. Those words relate THE WORD. But no one (I would think) believes that little letters fall upon them from the heavens...



We all seek to mine the wealth of Sacred Scriptures. I am not refering to any differences between us in that aspect. Protestants have a love of Scriptures, I do not deny that. Praise the Lord they retain SOME of the early Church's traditions. However, as they further multiply and divide, who knows in which direction they will go...



You are welcome to join us and be fools for Christ with us...

Regards

Where is the IT IS WRITTEN HERE???????
Who cares about TALK TALK & JUST MORE TALK. And the TOPIC is CHURCH?
It appears that this is the problem with one church here at least. It is no wonder that folks are brain dead to follow man's Jer. 17:5 traditions.