Church

[belovedwolfofgod]

Hey Johnny! Thats great! You are in my prayers man. I hope your journey is as fulfilling as mine. I used to not go to church. I felt that I didnt need to go. But slowly, ever so slowly, I started wanting to go to church. I started reading about the Mass (by the way, a great book to read is "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn who is a great writer. He combines scripture with history and the feel of the time the stuff was written to gain insight into what it means... its fantastic, and everything he backs up with scripture), and eventually I fell in love. Now its a rare thing that I miss Mass on sunday. Heck, in the summer I usually go daily! But if you ever need anything, feel free to PM me. And thessalonian is pretty competant too. He would be a good guy to PM.

 

[thessalonian]

Johnny

First of all do not buy that "Obey the authorities" bit. That is so taken out of context to force believers into submission it is sad. Jesus said that the kings of the gentiles lord authrority over other, but that we are not to like that.

The true church leaders, leads by example and does not need to tell you to obey him. Nor would he think you had to. He would simply live in a way the you repsected and wanted to be like.

The church is not a place, if you asked me I say NEVER GO BACK !!! That whole institutional thing is a killer. The church are people, and you are the church if you are in Christ.

Rather then GO just BE the church and you will become a true Church leader.

http://www.ntrf.org
http://www.eastvalleyhousechurch.org

Thanks for your personal interpretation Henry. Everybody has an opinion. You certainly may post yours as well. If Johnny were to listen to you guys he would be one confused dude. You all think you have it right.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Dear Henry. You crossed a line this time.

First of all do not buy that "Obey the authorities" bit. That is so taken out of context to force believers into submission it is sad. Jesus said that the kings of the gentiles lord authrority over other, but that we are not to like that.

Your claim to not obey authorities is not only anarchist, but heretical.

18: But to the house of the Re'chabites Jeremiah said, "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Because you have obeyed the command of Jon'adab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done all that he commanded you,
19: therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Jon'adab the son of Rechab shall never lack a man to stand before me."
Jeremiah 35

Rechab obeyed the precepts of his father, to drink no wine, and God rewarded him, and admonished Israel for not being like the house of Jon'adab. God respects those who obey authority.

Next

And Samuel said, "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15:22

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:16

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Hebrews 13:17

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
Ephesians 6:1

That makes a pretty strong case for obeying. But dont stop reading yet. Im gonna tie it all together in just a moment.

18: And the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him; 19: cause him to stand before Elea'zar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight. 20: You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.
Numbers 27

So, Moses laid his hand upon Joshua and in this way invested him with authority. This seems awful familiar...

He summoned the twelve and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. Luke 9:1,2

But that isnt necessarily very clear...

2: While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3: Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
Acts 13

And finally, explaining it...

22: And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea'zar the priest and the whole congregation, 23: and he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him as the LORD directed through Moses. Numbers 27

Now, for the explanation. I just basically justified authority, from secular to religous. God said to obey your leaders and submit to them. He also said elsewhere to obey the laws of the land if they are not in violation with God's law. So we must obey secular authority as for God has set them above us.

It says so right here...

1: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2: Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3: For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4: for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. 5: Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6: For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7: Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Romans 13

Thats pretty clear to me.

Next, the laying on of hands can convey authority and the Spirit of God. Do you know what happens at a Roman Catholic ordination? The laying on of hands, by the Bishop. The Aposltes of old were called bishops. Now, if the authority was transfered from bishop to bishop, there is yet another authority we should obey. They are our church leaders. The bible is pretty clear about obeying authority. Secular, and religous. Why do we call the priest father? Because we are his spiritual children, who is the spiritual child of God. We are all spiritual children of God. Heck, we're actual children of God. But the bible seems to suggest, esp. Ephesians 6:1, that we are to obey our spiritual parents as well, as long as they do not contradict God. I dont know where this disobediance thing of yours came from.

The Church says go to church. Christianity is about community. America is about individualism. We are to support each other. The people of Acts worshipped together, and ate together. At Mass, we worship together, and take communion together. Seems pretty biblical to me. Please, dont preach that false doctrine of yours.

Pax Christi.

 

[gingercat]

Johnny

First of all do not buy that "Obey the authorities" bit. That is so taken out of context to force believers into submission it is sad. Jesus said that the kings of the gentiles lord authrority over other, but that we are not to like that.

The true church leaders, leads by example and does not need to tell you to obey him. Nor would he think you had to. He would simply live in a way the you repsected and wanted to be like.

The church is not a place, if you asked me I say NEVER GO BACK !!! That whole institutional thing is a killer. The church are people, and you are the church if you are in Christ.

Rather then GO just BE the church and you will become a true Church leader.

http://www.ntrf.org
http://www.eastvalleyhousechurch.org

Amen :D :D :D

The Bible tells us not to have anything to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness. Most churches are corrupted. We cannot be useful for the Lord by attending them. I have been serving God without attending an organized church. I have been useful for the Lord since I stopped attending church.

 

[thessalonian]

Johnny

First of all do not buy that "Obey the authorities" bit. That is so taken out of context to force believers into submission it is sad. Jesus said that the kings of the gentiles lord authrority over other, but that we are not to like that.

The true church leaders, leads by example and does not need to tell you to obey him. Nor would he think you had to. He would simply live in a way the you repsected and wanted to be like.

The church is not a place, if you asked me I say NEVER GO BACK !!! That whole institutional thing is a killer. The church are people, and you are the church if you are in Christ.

Rather then GO just BE the church and you will become a true Church leader.

http://www.ntrf.org
http://www.eastvalleyhousechurch.org

Amen :D :D :D

The Bible tells us not to have anything to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness. Most churches are corrupted. We cannot be useful for the Lord by attending them. I have been serving God without attending an organized church. I have been useful for the Lord since I stopped attending church.

Hmmmm. Certainly there are sinners who sin in Churchs. But does that bring about the logical conclusion that we should not be a part of them? If we look in the Old Testament we had Hophni and Phineas, priests even, having sex in the doorway of the tent of the meeting with virgins. Did God say anyone should quit being a Jew and attending synagog. Children were sacrificed, David had a friend killed for his wife, Moses claimed the power of God, Solomon dabbled in idolatry with his wives. Any indication by God that anyone should not attend synagouge? Hummmmmm?

Lete's move over to the New Testament. Judas pilfered from the treasury. James and John wanted power, Peter denied our Lord three times, and all the Apostles abandoned Jesus at the cross. Jesus knew all of this was going on or would happen but he didn't kick anyone our of the last supper or not show up there himself. All kinds of corruption in the New Testament Church. Paul chastises the Cornithians for not dealing with a man who is living an immoral life in a relationship with his fathers wife (1 Cor 5), read Rev 3,4. Yet I don't see anywhere that he tells people to stop meating with other Christians. He even says of himself "The good that I would do I do not, while the EVIL that I would not do, I do". We can all find reason not too show up at the assemble. But Paul also chastises people for neglecting it.

Blessings

 

[gingercat]

thessaronian says"

Hmmmm. Certainly there are sinners who sin in Churchs. end of quote;

I am not talking about a few bad apples. If you cannot see the majority of corruption of the churches, you should reexamine your own faith. Is you standard of crhistianity is aiming Jesus' standard? When we are living like the world we cannot see any difference in our own lives either. It sure is sad case.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

What do you mean by the corruption of churches? I think you are generalizing. Grasping for some reason to justify not going to church. You expect the churches to be perfect. Well, nothing on this world is perfect. Everything grows in sanctification. For example, the state of massachusets tried to force catholic social services to place children with gay couples. The bishops shut it down rather than compromise their mission and their values. I suppose that because you expect churches to be perfect, on some level you expect christians to be perfect. Christians can be just as corrupt as the world. But what does a church do? Accountability. Eventually, the bad apples are seperated. The wheat from the chaff. So you can place your faith in that higher power and try to help the system, or trust yourself... but encouraging others to not to go church... thats just wrong. No guidance, no umbrella. My question... if so many people are led by the Holy Spirit, then why are there so many versions of the truth? Why not just one, because God is only one?

 

[gingercat]

What do you mean by the corruption of churches? I think you are generalizing. Grasping for some reason to justify not going to church. You expect the churches to be perfect. Well, nothing on this world is perfect. Everything grows in sanctification. For example, the state of massachusets tried to force catholic social services to place children with gay couples. The bishops shut it down rather than compromise their mission and their values. I suppose that because you expect churches to be perfect, on some level you expect christians to be perfect. Christians can be just as corrupt as the world. But what does a church do? Accountability. Eventually, the bad apples are seperated. The wheat from the chaff. So you can place your faith in that higher power and try to help the system, or trust yourself... but encouraging others to not to go church... thats just wrong. No guidance, no umbrella. My question... if so many people are led by the Holy Spirit, then why are there so many versions of the truth? Why not just one, because God is only one?

What you are saying are just an excuses. Look around you and see churchgoers lives. I have watched very closely for over 30 years because I was seeking God. I did not see godly lives in over all churchgoers' lives in either Catholics and Protestants. Jesus is telling us to be salt and light in the world (meaning live godly lives). If your standard is not aiming at Jesus you cannot see any corruption.

If we strive to be faithful to Him, our lives will be godly regardless of our imperfection.

We should not get guidance from corrupted churches. I have been reading the Bible everyday and Jesus is my guide. He has been faithful to me and making me very useful for His purpose after I stopped attending the church.

You keep avoid what the Bible says that we should not have anything to do with fruitless deeds of darkness. If the churches cannot guide their people to be godly, they are not of God.

 

[thessalonian]

thessaronian says"

Hmmmm. Certainly there are sinners who sin in Churchs. end of quote;

I am not talking about a few bad apples. If you cannot see the majority of corruption of the churches, you should reexamine your own faith. Is you standard of crhistianity is aiming Jesus' standard? When we are living like the world we cannot see any difference in our own lives either. It sure is sad case.

Let's see. 11 out of 12 Apostles abandoned Jesus at the cross. Is that a few bad apples? Is the Apostle Paul who says "the good that I would do I do not, while the EVIL that I would not do I do" just a bad apple? Growing in holiness is a journey. It doesn't happen overnight. There are wolves among the sheep Jesus tells us. Tares in the wheat. You have created a Church of your own. God's Church is a hospital for sinners as much as it is a hotel for saints. Christianity is growth. I am still a sinner yet as I look at my life I can see the potter is slowly molding the clay in his image and likeness. Are you without sin? I hate to tell you what John says about those who say such things.

You do alot of handwaving about the scandals. Lets look at the priest scandal, you know what I am talking about, on a percentage basis. Even worst case, 10% of the preists have done serious evil with regard to minors. That means 90% have not. Most preists I know are very good men so I tend to believe these numbers.

I stand by my words. Your making excuses.

Blessings

 

[gingercat]

thessaronian says"

Hmmmm. Certainly there are sinners who sin in Churchs. end of quote;

I am not talking about a few bad apples. If you cannot see the majority of corruption of the churches, you should reexamine your own faith. Is you standard of crhistianity is aiming Jesus' standard? When we are living like the world we cannot see any difference in our own lives either. It sure is sad case.

Let's see. 11 out of 12 Apostles abandoned Jesus at the cross. Is that a few bad apples? Is the Apostle Paul who says "the good that I would do I do not, while the EVIL that I would not do I do" just a bad apple? Growing in holiness is a journey. It doesn't happen overnight. There are wolves among the sheep Jesus tells us. Tares in the wheat. You have created a Church of your own. God's Church is a hospital for sinners as much as it is a hotel for saints. Christianity is growth. I am still a sinner yet as I look at my life I can see the potter is slowly molding the clay in his image and likeness. Are you without sin? I hate to tell you what John says about those who say such things.

Blessings

Please read what I commented to beloved.

His servant. hw

 

[thessalonian]

thessaronian says"

Hmmmm. Certainly there are sinners who sin in Churchs. end of quote;

I am not talking about a few bad apples. If you cannot see the majority of corruption of the churches, you should reexamine your own faith. Is you standard of crhistianity is aiming Jesus' standard? When we are living like the world we cannot see any difference in our own lives either. It sure is sad case.

Let's see. 11 out of 12 Apostles abandoned Jesus at the cross. Is that a few bad apples? Is the Apostle Paul who says "the good that I would do I do not, while the EVIL that I would not do I do" just a bad apple? Growing in holiness is a journey. It doesn't happen overnight. There are wolves among the sheep Jesus tells us. Tares in the wheat. You have created a Church of your own. God's Church is a hospital for sinners as much as it is a hotel for saints. Christianity is growth. I am still a sinner yet as I look at my life I can see the potter is slowly molding the clay in his image and likeness. Are you without sin? I hate to tell you what John says about those who say such things.

Blessings

Please read what I commented to beloved.

His servant. hw

I saw it. It is you that picks and chooses what you want out of the Bible to justify your standing. Prov 3:5 says "trust not in your own understanding but rely on the Lord". Now Jer 3:15 says "I will send you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". Seems to me we should trust in the Lord that he will send us such shepherds but you seem to think your judging of People is warant not to have such truths. I am afraid you are only following your own understanding particularly on this issue and are not really being honest with what the scriptures say. Paul says some are given to be teachers. You say there are no longer teachers. He says the different parts of the body need eachother. You say you don't need anyone. You and your bible at home are all that you need. Christ says "thou art peter and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH and the GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL". You say the gates of hell have prevailed. Verses like Matt 18 where Jesus says to take divisions to the Church have no application with your one woman Church. I don't buy it.

Blessings

 

[gingercat]

Thess,

Suit yourself.

I am just taking heed of what the Bible says to watch out for false prophets: that's why we look at their lives instead of what they say. Fruit won't lie. I am so sorry that you are happy with the fruitless bunch. I am not. It seems that you life is the same as the most of the churches from your comments.

I will keep on telling young and new believers to watch out for false churches. This is the burden that Jesus is giving me.

I would like them to be faithful to the Lord.

His servant

 

[thessalonian]

 

[thessalonian]

Mark.13
[21] And then if any one says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.


:

 

[thessalonian]

Mark.13
[21] And then if any one says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.


:

 

[Henry]

Belovedwolfofgod

Your claim to not obey authorities is not only anarchist, but heretical.

No no, you are missing what I am saying. I am not saying not to obey the authorities. I said that is misused by many to force Christians into submission. What is heretical is teaching that church leaders are masters and rulers over the people of God.

Luke 22: 24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

Jesus said that we are NOT To LORD AUTHORITY over each other. Jesus said this not me, he says that is what THEY do but WE are not to be that way.

Rather the authority in the church is like that of a child or a servant. REALTIONAL at best.

Now we are to obey the civil authorities and the law of the land in which we live, but that has nothing to do with the church authority.

This text you like is talking about the civil government, not the church my friend.

“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2: Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.â€Â

What do you mean by the corruption of churches? I think you are generalizing. Grasping for some reason to justify not going to church.

Oh I agree most churches are quite corrupted with the worlds ways, they have a leadership like the world (Jesus said not to) they have all the bills and business expenses of the worldly institutions and they are bound up by governmental laws having nothing at all to do with the bible.

As for “going†to church. You do not realize that statement alone shows the paganistic corruption in the church. The church is not a place in the Bible it is a people, the early church did not GO to church THEY where the church.

Praise God this one is not going to church, better to BE the church.

Oh, now before you get all worked up I certainly think we need to gather together. But NEVER in a big building with some “pastor†or worse “priest†thinking himself the leader.

The NT church met in homes and that is what we all should be doing as well.

Thess

Tisk tisk you accuse others of doing what you do.

Now Jer 3:15 says "I will send you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding".

1 Peter 5:2
Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;

A shepherd is not a title or office, it is a characteristic of a mature believer, just like being an overseer.

And notice they are not to do it for money… so that counts out all the “pastors†who go to seminary for all those (wasted) years (and I am in seminary so I have the right to say it is a waste) to get a job being a pastor for pay check.

The true church leader is a leader by his example and the pasturing and overseeing are merely fruits of what he does and he would never think to be called by them as titles.

Matthew 23: 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[a] 11The greatest among you will be your servant.

The so called shepherds you speak of are those bearing a title, holding an office Jesus said NO NO. So how can they be the ones you say he sends if they are not even doing what he said?

 

[Soma-Sight]

Henry,

I agree with you that we should discuss the word of God among our brothers and sisters rather than just sitting on a wood plank being told what to believe.

I pray your small gatherings are full of the Holy Sprit and bring good fruits to all involved.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

your verse about the shepherds and your explanation describes the role of the priest in our church.

he is a celibate man. he forgoes a married lifestyle for the sake of his flock.
he goes where he is told, and often works for very little money.
i dont know when the priest has lorded authority. he deserves respect because of his call by God. he has studied God a great deal, and he serves the people in so many capacities, it really is as a shepherd over a flock, or a father over children. you dont contract a priest. he is assigned.

in my previous post, i did address the issue of civil authorities. i also addressed the issue of religous authorities too, though i can be a bit of a non-linear thinker...

Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:16

Priests clearly serve God. They give their lives to that service! Just because a tiny minority makes the news does not mean that they are all bad.

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Hebrews 13:17

They priest is basically a shepherd of souls. His position isnt about power. Its about responsibility. He isnt lording, rather, he is leading by virtue of his calling. Its just that his calling has a name. kinda like marriage, only marriage to the church, to Jesus.

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
Ephesians 6:1

A parent in the Lord is essentially your spiritual leader. They are people who are more mature. Those who lead you. That is the office of priest. We even call him father, though it is not the same as the Father.

18: And the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him; 19: cause him to stand before Elea'zar the priest and all the congregation, and you shall commission him in their sight. 20: You shall invest him with some of your authority, that all the congregation of the people of Israel may obey.
Numbers 27

God ordains people to lead. Authority is passed on. The priesthood is a calling, not a job. Its a way of life. I agonized over whether it was a calling. My friend agonized and realized it was for him. I know countless others who have to discern. None of them will say its a job. They all agree, its a call.

He summoned the twelve and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. Luke 9:1,2

The power started here. With Jesus giving it to the apostles. And then again, after Peter confesses to Jesus. There is even evidence in acts that Peter held primacy among the group. Namely, the council of Jerusalem, where james speaks, but when Peter speaks, all fall silent and there is no more debate.

2: While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3: Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
Acts 13

Even this verse illustrates that it is a calling.

And I will show you what happens at an ordination.

22: And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Elea'zar the priest and the whole congregation, 23: and he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him as the LORD directed through Moses. Numbers 27

Simply change Moses to "the bishop", and "joshua" to "the seminarian". Thats what happens. And you have an unbroken sequence from the original apostles to now.

In conclusion, the priesthood really is countercultural. You cant get a much different lifestyle from the world than being celibate, submissive to a higher authority, and living for others and not yourself. Its really amazing.

 

[mutzrein]

Mark.13
[21] And then if any one says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.


:

Thess - what did this mean? Are you suggesting that since someone does not go to a church they have become a false prophet or believe themselves to be Christ?

btw - I believe I owe you a response in another thread. My eyes are getting bit blurry looking so if you can spot it pse let me know.

Thanks

 

[thessalonian]

Mark.13
[21] And then if any one says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.


:

Thess - what did this mean? Are you suggesting that since someone does not go to a church they have become a false prophet or believe themselves to be Christ?

btw - I believe I owe you a response in another thread. My eyes are getting bit blurry looking so if you can spot it pse let me know.

Thanks

Nope. Not what I am suggesting at all. It's not that she does not go to Church that caused me to post it. The problem is the promotion of personal opinions and philosophies about God as the truth. The problem is everyone on this board contradicting eachother and yet presenting their own opinions as truth. I don't post it just about her. Its alot more than just what Church you go to or not.

Blessings