Cigarette Smoking Christians

[Drew]

There ya go

Not correct. My post was simply a correct critique of the fact that you (and others) do not support accusations with evidence.

Do you think you have a "right" to accuse others of something without being able to back it up?

 

[Hitch]

Not correct. My post was simply a correct critique of the fact that you (and others) do not support accusations with evidence.

Do you think you have a "right" to accuse others of something without being able to back it up?

Its obvious to everyone but you D.

 

[Drew]

Its obvious to everyone but you D.

Tell me Hitch: Precisely how is it Pharisiacal to ask that accusations be supported with evidence from the poster's text. You, and others, keep saying I have an obvious "attitude" problem. Well, unless you have magical powers to read my mind and discern my attitude, all you have to go on is the text of my posts.

So I ask yet again: Where is the evidence of a Pharisaical attitude in my posts. Please post the relevant text. My assertion that one needs to support accusations with evidence is clearly not itself "Pharisaical".

 

[Pard]

Do you think you have a "right" to accuse others of something without being able to back it up?

Well... technically... yeah you do have a "right". Free speech

Sorry, could not resist.

Anyways, smoking =/= sin. Smoking = stumbling block. If I put a Christian smoker (who is a habitual smoker) in a non-smoking room and make them listen to God Himself for 12 hours straight, would they not have the urge to leave God's presence to go get a smoke? Yeah, I bet they would have the urge, but the urge is not a sin, and nor is acting on it (in this case). It is a stumbling block though, it leads to tripping and falling from God...

That being said, after spending 12 long years in the state-run public school system, I must say that their portrait of smokers is ridiculously inflated and full of misconceptions. It's really brainwashing, to be frank with you. I do find the message they give hilarious (from a Christian POV, anyways...):

"Don't smoke, or you will die. Don't drink until you are 21, or you will die. Don't do drugs, or you will be a hippy (nah, I'm kidding they would say "die", but being a hippy is WAY worse...). Now run along and play... oh and don't forget your condom!"
:biglol

 

[Hitch]

Tell me Hitch: Precisely how is it Pharisiacal to ask that accusations be supported with evidence from the poster's text. You, and others, keep saying I have an obvious "attitude" problem. Well, unless you have magical powers to read my mind and discern my attitude, all you have to go on is the text of my posts.

So I ask yet again: Where is the evidence of a Pharisaical attitude in my posts. Please post the relevant text. My assertion that one needs to support accusations with evidence is clearly not itself "Pharisaical".

I told you precisely and I'll add that you're carrying on like an old woman.

 

[Drew]

Here is what I suggest is going on in this thread:

1. Sound Biblical arguments have been provided that allows us to conclude that smoking is sin. These arguments appeal to a clear Biblically-described programme of divine healing of a broken physical world. In that context, to smoke and thereby damage creation is to commit a "sin". There have been, interestingly, no real challenges to this basic argument.

2. Some posters, unable to accept this, resort to personal attacks, suggesting that the person who makes these arguments must be a hypocrite (heck, even a moderator did this). One poster asked me a lengthy series of "health habit" questions, most likely with the intent of demonstrating hypocrisy on my part. However the results showed that, in this area anyway, I was not being hypocritical.

Please try to understand - proper discussion cannot be based on imagined personal flaws in the other posters. It is the Biblical arguments that matter. Now, lets try to behave like adults and not attack one another.

Does anyone doubt that God is highly motivated to heal and restore his physical creation? Then by all means, raise the issue and I will try to give more detailed arguments. If, after all, it really does turn out that God does not really care about the "physical world" then, perhaps, it is not so clear that smoking is "sin".

Of course, even if this were so, it would be hard to see how, for example, it is not sin for a smoking husband to place his family's well-being at risk by unnecessarily dying young. Or how it is not sin to wrack up unnecessary health care costs, when the money could be put to better use.

When you guys attack the message-bearer - calling them a Pharisee, or whiner - you really are demonstrating a measure of desperation. Please deal with the issue itself, and the relevant Biblical considerations.

 

[Hitch]

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[Mike]

Wow, Drew. :gah

I was able to view the board today, but just now able to actively post. Earlier today, I wished I could come on here and make another appeal to get back to the topic of smoking, but I have come to realize this has long since been about smoking. This has come to be a platform for you to play the roll of the martyr. It seems like you want it to appear that you are taking the punches for being true to the Word, and I think you've lost focus on what was at hand here.

So, instead of trying to settle the bickering, I'm going to further indulge your victim mentality. I cited Luke about 10 pages ago (or whatever).

Luke 18
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-25691">11</sup> The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-25692">12</sup> I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

This was not to say what you've been standing on the rooftops defending of yourself; that you are being victimized for defending your faith. This was to compare what I saw as two similar mentalities. In the one case you had the story of a person who said basically, "I'm glad I don't live in sin like that person. I fast and tithe." This was in response to your laundry list of things you do to treat your body right, and in some cases, compared your behavior to the average person. This wasn't to call you a pharisee but to say I was hearing two similar mindsets. "That person who smokes is sinning. I would never smoke, because scripture "clearly" puts it in the category of sin. But, see here? I do all these other things to treat my body right."

It isn't so much being a pharisee or acting like a pharisee. It's pointing at something other people do, saying they sin and justifying yourself in doing so by setting yourself up as the prototypical Christian who treats his temple as God commands just like this person (who happened to be a pharisee) was doing.

Now, it's come to a point that you're less concerned with defending your stance on smoking as you are defending yourself in pronouncing it "sinful".

Try to get back to on topic...

1 Corinthians 8
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28519">7</sup> But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28520">8</sup> But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28521">9</sup> Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28522">10</sup> For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28523">11</sup> So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28524">12</sup> When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28525">13</sup> Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."

Paul seems to clearly be using the example that meat can be a sin to a brother because he regards it as an idol. Can we agree that eating meat is not a sin? Why would Paul avoid causing another person to eat meat if it were not for the fact that it has become an idol to that person? You have made the case that smoking is set apart because it is bad for the body. Most reputable physicians will agree that bacon is bad due to its affect on cholesterol (LDL). God forbade His people from eating pork, but we eat bacon (pork) free of conviction that it's sin; at least I do.

I'll conclude with a hypothetical scenario and a question for you you... Suppose I'm with some friends, watching a football game. I've never smoked and can't foresee this ever occurring, but suppose I light up and smoke a cigarette. I don't regard smoking as inherently sinful, so my conscience (in the scenario) is not tweaked. I smoke the cigarette, and this is the only cigarette I ever smoke.

Did I sin?

 

[Free]

Here is what I suggest is going on in this thread:

1. Sound Biblical arguments have been provided that allows us to conclude that smoking is sin. These arguments appeal to a clear Biblically-described programme of divine healing of a broken physical world. In that context, to smoke and thereby damage creation is to commit a "sin". There have been, interestingly, no real challenges to this basic argument.

2. Some posters, unable to accept this, resort to personal attacks, suggesting that the person who makes these arguments must be a hypocrite (heck, even a moderator did this). One poster asked me a lengthy series of "health habit" questions, most likely with the intent of demonstrating hypocrisy on my part. However the results showed that, in this area anyway, I was not being hypocritical.

Please try to understand - proper discussion cannot be based on imagined personal flaws in the other posters. It is the Biblical arguments that matter. Now, lets try to behave like adults and not attack one another.

Does anyone doubt that God is highly motivated to heal and restore his physical creation? Then by all means, raise the issue and I will try to give more detailed arguments. If, after all, it really does turn out that God does not really care about the "physical world" then, perhaps, it is not so clear that smoking is "sin".

Of course, even if this were so, it would be hard to see how, for example, it is not sin for a smoking husband to place his family's well-being at risk by unnecessarily dying young. Or how it is not sin to wrack up unnecessary health care costs, when the money could be put to better use.

When you guys attack the message-bearer - calling them a Pharisee, or whiner - you really are demonstrating a measure of desperation. Please deal with the issue itself, and the relevant Biblical considerations.

I agree.

 

[Free]

Free - You don't know me well enough to just talk to me like that. If you are putting your moderator hat on and have something to say, fine. Just let me know. Read his statements again - here, I'll fetch them. THEN tell me if my conclusions are justified.

See the appeal to the masses there? It's a logical fallacy. The "I (and others)" argument (or justification, if you like that word better) do not qualify as proof any more than they do justification. It is a false appeal that not only I but also others believe this (and that in and of itself makes my claims true).

When Drew comes forward and admits that he has been confronted for his pharisitical behaviors before it does very little to dismiss my impression. So now, I'm curious -- are you, Free one of the ones who throw stones at brothers and sisters in Lord who are smokers? Nevermind, I don't need your answer.

See, again with the false Pharisaical argument. And once again, you are incorrect. There is no appeal to the masses, no logical fallacy. He clearly did not state that as an appeal to the truth of the matter but rather that he did not want to repeat the argument because it had already been made more than once.

Drew's arguments have been sound and you and others have yet to show that our bodies are ours to do with as we please without recourse to who we actually are and who we are to be representing on this earth.

 

[Drew]

Wow, Drew. :gah

I was able to view the board today, but just now able to actively post. Earlier today, I wished I could come on here and make another appeal to get back to the topic of smoking, but I have come to realize this has long since been about smoking. This has come to be a platform for you to play the roll of the martyr. It seems like you want it to appear that you are taking the punches for being true to the Word, and I think you've lost focus on what was at hand here.

An outrageous misrepresentation of what has been going on. Since you are a moderator, I suggest you at least try to have some sense of objectivity. I am frankly stunned at your lack of judgement in evaluating what is going in this thread.

So, instead of trying to settle the bickering, I'm going to further indulge your victim mentality.

Again, you show utter disregard for what the transcript of this thread actually demonstrates.

I know that many here seem utterly unconcerned for actually support their accusations with evidence. Here are some statements made about that are clearly personally critical.

I can't explain it, but for some reason right now, a passage from Luke is coming to mind...

Luke 18
"<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-25700>11</SUP> The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-25701>12</SUP> I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"

Clear implication: Drew is a hypocrite.

It's interesting in a clean the outside of the cup but leave the inside filthy manner that many have brought judgment onto brothers and sisters for flimsy excuse. The bible is very clear about sin. We don't need to be putting our brotherly and sisterly accusations into it

Clear implication: Drew is a hypocrite.

How lovely is it for any to cast stones in the Pharisitical belief that we can by our righteousness pursuade (force) God to keep up with our holiness???<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Clear implication: Drew is like a self-righteous Pharisee.

When Drew comes forward and admits that he has been confronted for his pharisitical behaviors before it does very little to dismiss my impression. So now, I'm curious -- are you, Free one of the ones who throw stones at brothers and sisters in Lord who are smokers?

Clear implication: Drew is like a self-righteous Pharisee.

It was the words and attitude of the Pharisees. Yours is as clear as theirs.

Clear implication: Drew is like a self-righteous Pharisee.

I told you precisely and I'll add that you're carrying on like an old woman.

Clear implication: Drew is a whiner

Please Mike, try to be fair. I have taken all these cheap-shots and have not returned in kind. You accuse me of "playing the victim". Well, when people take personal cheap-shots, and do not support them, the person to whom those shots directed really is a victim.

I have no idea how you are seeing things the way you are. I will address the rest of your post shortly.

 

[Drew]

.This was to compare what I saw as two similar mentalities. In the one case you had the story of a person who said basically, "I'm glad I don't live in sin like that person. I fast and tithe." This was in response to your laundry list of things you do to treat your body right, and in some cases, compared your behavior to the average person. This wasn't to call you a pharisee but to say I was hearing two similar mindsets. "That person who smokes is sinning. I would never smoke, because scripture "clearly" puts it in the category of sin. But, see here? I do all these other things to treat my body right."

How can I argue with this? Surely you know that I was explicitly asked a set of questions and you paint me as volunteering this information to boast.

Read the thread carefully, please.

I only hope your misrepresentation is not intentional. It is one thing to stand on the corner and say "look at me, see how well I treat my body". It is entirely another, when asked to defend one's "integrity" to then simply tell the truth.

.It isn't so much being a pharisee or acting like a pharisee. It's pointing at something other people do, saying they sin and justifying yourself in doing so by setting yourself up as the prototypical Christian who treats his temple as God commands just like this person (who happened to be a pharisee) was doing.

An utter misrepresentation of what actually happened.

.Now, it's come to a point that you're less concerned with defending your stance on smoking as you are defending yourself in pronouncing it "sinful".

Try to get back to on topic...

Mike - its hard to believe you are actually reading the thread. Remember, it was me who tried to get the matter back on topic in post number 225.

 

[Drew]

1 Corinthians 8
"<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-28519>7</SUP> But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-28520>8</SUP> But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-28521>9</SUP> Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-28522>10</SUP> For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-28523>11</SUP> So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-28524>12</SUP> When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-28525>13</SUP> Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."

Paul seems to clearly be using the example that meat can be a sin to a brother because he regards it as an idol. Can we agree that eating meat is not a sin?

Yes.

Why would Paul avoid causing another person to eat meat if it were not for the fact that it has become an idol to that person? You have made the case that smoking is set apart because it is bad for the body. Most reputable physicians will agree that bacon is bad due to its affect on cholesterol (LDL). God forbade His people from eating pork, but we eat bacon (pork) free of conviction that it's sin; at least I do.

I have no idea what your point is. Bacon provides nutrition - if I was starving in the woods, I would eat bacon if that's all there was. And it would save my life by providing nourishment. When a cigarrette does the same thing, maybe you will have a point.

Eating too much bacon to the point where you raise your risk of heart disease is clearly sin, if other food choices are available.

I'll conclude with a hypothetical scenario and a question for you you... Suppose I'm with some friends, watching a football game. I've never smoked and can't foresee this ever occurring, but suppose I light up and smoke a cigarette. I don't regard smoking as inherently sinful, so my conscience (in the scenario) is not tweaked. I smoke the cigarette, and this is the only cigarette I ever smoke.

Did I sin?

Yes. Sinning is not only about whether the conscience is tweaked. I suspect many mass murderers feel no twinges of conscience whatsoever. Smoking a single cigarrette is like taking a little bit of poison - it will not kill you, but it will damage you a little bit. Why would this not be sin, given that there really is no upside to smoking.

Despite the outrageous misrepresentations you and others have made about me, there simply is no evidence from what I have posted that I am not sympathetic to smokers. I have repeatedly agreed that its an addiction. And I have never suggested that smokers be lined up and shot. And I have never "held it against my brothers and sisters" despite the fertile imaginations of some posters.

Yes, smoking that one cigarrette is sin. Should you be shot for smoking that one cigarrette? No.

 

[Mike]

Yes, smoking that one cigarrette is sin. Should you be shot for smoking that one cigarrette? No.

Okay, well then we're at a stand-off again. I don't have the stamina to continue this debate. I believe I've said all I can say. I just don't see why such a firm line needs to be argued so vehemently against those we have so much in common with. In my opinion, it should have never gotten this far. Some believe smoking is a sin. Some don't. Add this to countless things that some will disagree on. I've cheered for you in important thread like "Is Jesus Really God?" and disagreed with you on ones such as this. My guess is that others who disagree with you on such topics would agree that there are much bigger fish to fry.

I believe my response was proportional to yours over the vast number of pages. Sometimes mods should be able to post as members and just engage in a conversation. If you believe I was over-reacting, I would say the same of you. In the end, I know you you are a Godly man, and you are my brother.

 

[Drew]

Here is an argument that one could use that smoking is not always sin:

1. The essence of the sin of smoking lies in the degree to which it functions as an idol;

2. Smoking is clearly not an "idol" for some people;

3. Therefore, smoking is not sin for such people.

I suggest this argument does not succeed. One cannot presume that the only reason smoking might be a sin is because it functions as an idol.

If I sleep with my best friend's wife one time, and have no interest in doing it again, or if I simply do it now and again and do not make it an "idol", is it not still sin?

 

[Mike]

smoke "a" cigarette = sleeping with someone else's wife...

mmmmm... not so much...

 

[Sparkey]

No fornicator will go to heaven. No liar will either. You're pretty good when it comes to elucidating the various implications you feel have been hurled wrongly at you --and have said, "but have I returned in kind?"

What about when you equate smoking to damnable sin such as adultery? The essense of the pharisee's error was that they used a imballanced scale. They clearly put they thumb on their own side of the scale and considered their thought and belief to be weighter. All the while they dismissed the actual weightier matters of the law - Mercy (Compassion) and Justice and the Goodness of God who is altogether Good and without shadow of turning.

One does not need to claim that 'Moses is my father' in order to say, "My abiding by the law and not smoking makes me better than those who are preventing God from restoring Edenic Paradise," (your thought, not mine). Frankly I don't know where you even get that idea.

Before you go again descirbing the "outrageous misrepresentations made about [you]", you may want to consider a retraction. The Bible does not mention cigarettes or tobacco. I am assuming that you don't mean smoking marijuana which is illegal and sin. Is smoking a cigarette sin? That's between God and that child of God. You have no business equating smoking with idol worship or sleeping with your best friend's wife. That the outrageous and provocative statements that draw fire. What you're doing is a form of trolling. SO then when you see a rock hurled over your head as a warning shot?

You decry it? Fine. You make me wanna go have a cigarette and relax. Dang.

For the most part though - you have tried (and I can see that) so let me try also: What do you think Paul was alluding to when he mentioned praying 3 times to be delivered from a "thorn in is flesh" was all about? Your honest impression would be helpful to clear the air, methinks.

@Free: Before you define my arguement for me again, let me say plainly that for me, smoking is clearly sin. I can't speak for you, and on the same token, you may not speak for me. Merely having an imbalanced scale in ones possession is sufficient evidence to convict of sin. I'm addicted to tobacco and have no exuse for my behavior whatsoever. When I prayed and asked others to pray that I be delivered from tobacco addiction, I was delivered. No withdrawal and no feeling like I wanted to smoke again.

But then? It's sad. I'm sad. Yes, I bought more cigarettes and the cycle of addiction continued. Sad, like I say, but in this was found something that we all need - it doesn't matter what sin we commit. The one who says, 'Thou shalt not kill' also says, 'If you are guility in one point you are guilty of the whole law'. We all know this truthfully and it doesn't matter what sin convinces us of it.

What are we told to do when we see our brother sinning? We are to ask that the Lord look to the need of that for our brother's sake. I'm asking that we all spend time before our God beseeching Him to show us if there be any concern that He wants us to focus on. It is my suggestion that we refrain from making big things out of small and set down our arms as we try to become peacemakers in truth.

 

[Drew]

I just don't see why such a firm line needs to be argued so vehemently against those we have so much in common with.

The fact that we have so much in common does not mean that we are to compromise on the "sin" issue. Again, I am not wagging my finger self-righteously at smokers suggesting they are not Christians. I am simply arguing that smoking is a sin because God loves his creation, including the human body, and we should not work against His efforts to heal the world.

My guess is that others who disagree with you on such topics would agree that there are much bigger fish to fry.

Well perhaps. But part of my argument has been that Christians erroneously see "the physical" as being of lesser importance than what they call "the spiritual". I think that smoking is indeed a very serious sin - it seriously damages the temple of the Holy Spirit, ruins lives, and costs society many millions in needless health care costs.

I believe my response was proportional to yours over the vast number of pages.

Well I certainly do not agree. The transcipt of thread shows that while I argued the issue, several others turned this into a set of unsubstantiated personal attacks.

If you believe I was over-reacting, I would say the same of you.

Well, we disagree - and the evidence is clear. I did no name-calling, yet was repeatedly attacked with suggestions of hypocrisy and self-righteousness. And when I answered pointed questions truthfully, I get accused of "boasting".

In the end, I know you you are a Godly man, and you are my brother.

I appreciate that and, despite our disagreement, we are indeed members of one family.

 

[farouk]

The preacher Spurgeon smoked. It was before the days of some effective medicine, and it apparently gave him some relief to a medical condition.

(Two cents'.)

 

[Drew]

smoke "a" cigarette = sleeping with someone else's wife...

mmmmm... not so much...

Mike, you are making the clearly incorrect argument that if something is directly prohibited by the Bible (like adultery), another activity which is not (such as smoking) is "less of a sin".

The Bible was never intended to be a master list of "do's and don'ts" - it is the story of God reclaiming the world and solving the problem of sin and death. In that context, it is manifestly clear that God wants to restore creation to an Edenic state. And that includes the "physical world". God hates death - it marred His "very good" creation and sent Jesus to the Cross. Imagine how God "feels" - having sacrificed his own Son to solve the death problem - when people smoke death-promoting cigarrettes.

And please - stop the condescension with the "read the Bible" comment. The fact that I disagree with you does not mean that I read the Bible any less than you or others.

I really am surprised that so many seem to think that the only basis for calling something "sin" is if there is a clear one-liner in the Bible outlawing it. I suppose that explains a lot of the troubles in Christian culture.