Cigarette Smoking Christians

[Hitch]

I'm curious, seeing as that we're made in God's image (as all humans are), temples of the Holy Spirit who are to reflect God to the world and then turn and worship God, reflecting love from the world back to him, walking in the Spirit in such a way that we develop the fruit of the Spirit, set apart and on the path of sanctification, a royal priesthood, seeking to be holy and blameless, how is it clearly not a sin to smoke?

I can show you that easily, but first you have to show me why and how you are qualified to make such a decision for people you've never even met.

Deal?

 

[Free]

I can show you that easily, but first you have to show me why and how you are qualified to make such a decision for people you've never even met.

Deal?

No, no deal. It's just a question (and I'm sure many more similar points could have been added).

 

[reba]

I think you are right - Hitch was seeing if I was being consistent. It turns out that I was. That's no "boast" - it is the simple truth. This is not to suggest that I exhibit the same level of "non-hypocrisy" in other areas of my life.

Look out for that occasional diet soda.

 

[farouk]

Look out for that occasional diet soda.

r:

Well I guess that diet soda and cigarettes are kind like apples and oranges...

 

[mpok1519]

Moderation; a cheeseburger is okay; thousands of cheeseburgers which eventually cause coronary failure is not.

 

[jasoncran]

I'm curious, seeing as that we're made in God's image (as all humans are), temples of the Holy Spirit who are to reflect God to the world and then turn and worship God, reflecting love from the world back to him, walking in the Spirit in such a way that we develop the fruit of the Spirit, set apart and on the path of sanctification, a royal priesthood, seeking to be holy and blameless, how is it clearly not a sin to smoke?

the only problem i have with making it a sin for all. is this a list of what i would consider sin

watching tv(junk goes in few shows edify)
listen to secular music
overexcerising
any food that can cause in long term health problems
we might as well command the church to be vegans and live on a farm and grow our own food.

 

[Drew]

Drew -

Nice try? First off, when I am addressing someone personally, I will direct my post to them by name and/or post their quote and respond accordingly (such as this one).

You amuse me.

The readers are not fools! If they have been reading this thread, they will know, despite your denial here, that you were addressing me. You are clever - making veiled allusions to me without naming me. Now, no more game-playing, please.

You said this:

This (post) too, is revealing. There was no demanding of evidence; as if to say, “Innocent until you prove me guilty!†(which by the way, is ironic in this thread being that cigarette smoking has no specific written evidence either in the bible; yet some are staunch in their position; I assume by they themselves making inferences).

....and you expect the reader to believe that you are not talking about me? I really hope the readers are more perceptive than this.

Well, just to prove the point - who is it that continually demanded evidence and who is therefore clearly the person you are referring to? Let the "evidence" demonstrate:

You are being entirely unfair - you presume, with no evidence at all, that I am "boasting". I was asked a question I answered it.

Again, you have no evidence at all that I am "looking down" - I was asked a question. And I answered it.

It is entirely inappropriate to presume, with no evidence whatsoever, that I am boasting when I simply answer questions truthfullly.

You have no actual evidence to support any of these claims. Perhaps I have said that I live relatively frugally

Did you name me? No. Were you referring to me?

Obviously.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I really, really hope no one is thinking as follows: "Well, since I am going to get a new body, so it does not matter if I smoke, get obese, and generally wreck the body I have now".

... When we act carelessly to our bodies, we are in some measure saying that we do not honour Jesus' work of beginning a new creation - we are instead going to let ourselves go and wait for the magic at the very end.

Is smoking a sin? Is it ALWAYS a sin? I am still unsure.

But Drew DOES make a good point here (I had to take some text out to make his point stronger - but he DOES make a good point.)

I think it goes with all else we try to do to represent the Lord in a positive light to others.

 

[Drew]

Drew - My reply (#172) was to acknowledge Mike and his Christ-like remarks. This was in response to the OP. Not just whether smoking was good-bad, right-wrong; but ALSO the manner in which one expresses them. And yet it appears you could not leave it to stand but attempted to take away from it and make it about YOUR viewpoint on smoking being clearly a sin!).

Nice try (again). Your post number 172 was a carefully worded critique of the way I have conducted myself in this debate. So your post was not just about Mike, it was also about me. And, of course, given the topic of the thread, it is entirely appropriate that I comment on my position on whether smoking is sin.

You did not name me, but it was quite clear that you were engaging my style of debate and my position.

Furthermore, unless you believe you are the ONLY one, or perhaps more appropriate, the leader of those believing smoking is clearly a sin, then maybe I could see you concluding that my inference was to you and you alone when I said, “yet some are staunch in their position; I assume by they themselves making inferences.” (#172)

You are trying to have it both ways. Let's be clear - I am the one who, for better or worse, repeatedly demands evidence. The fact that you posted the following demonstrates that you were, in a careful way perhaps, pointing me out in particular:

There was no demanding of evidence

Who is this referring to other than me? Who else demands "evidence"?

 

[Drew]

Now to your post I quoted above:

You attempt to make the argument that it is entirely appropriate to provide evidence (not inferences) when (in one’s mind) he is being accused of being a Pharisee.

Please do not insult the readers' intelligence! There is doubt - Mike was actually accusing me of adopting a Pharisaical attitude. Whether he is right or not is besides your immediate point - this was not an issue of me "hearing" something that was not said.

Yet! Out from the same pen stroke you admit there is no ‘Thou shalt not smoke’ commandment in the bible. BUT! Based on inferences, you can unequivocally state that smoking cigarettes is clearly a sin.

The fact that there is no "thou shalt not smoke" command in the Bible does not mean that there is no "evidence" that smoking is sin. There is a lot of evidence in the Biblical narrative to the effect that God loves creation, is redeeming it at great personal cost, and that the body is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.

It is an entirely legitimate "inference" - to use your term - that smoking is sin, given that we know it wreaks nothing but catastrophic damage to the human being who smokes, not to mention the wider society. Yes, we all agree - there is no "direct command" against smoking. But surely we agree that the Bible does not explicitly prohibit each of the millions of things that we can otherwise legitimately conclude are sin?

Does the Bible tell us to not chew razor blades? No. Is it sin? Obviously.

 

[Drew]

Moderation; a cheeseburger is okay; thousands of cheeseburgers which eventually cause coronary failure is not.

I can agree with this - at least in the case of cheeseburgers.

Cigarrettes are different in at least 2 respects:

1. They are demonstrably addictive - much more so than "cheeseburgers". So its much more likely that an occasional cigarette will evolve into 2 packs a day;

2. Cheeseburgers provide some nutrition - so there is a "good" side about cheeseburgers. I do not believe that this is so for cigarrettes.

 

[Drew]

I ask you directly Drew, What’s worse? Or is there a vast difference between you (IYO) being accused of being a Pharisee? Or a fellow Christian being accused BY YOU of being clearly in sin by smoking cigarettes?

Its not that simple. While I agree that my post may have had a slight air of "boasting", I maintain the response from Mike went too far - it was not fair to imply I was acting like a Pharisee, given the general tenour of my post and the fact I was answering some specific questions. So the real question you should be asking is this: Which is worse, being accused of being hypocritical like a Pharisee, assuming that you are indeed guilty of that offence, or being accused of sinning by smoking?

To this question, I will answer: they are about the same.

Being accused of being clearly in sin (IMO) also is a serious accusation. Perhaps your rules of engagement suggests, “When it’s about me, I demand evidence! When it’s someone else, inferences will do!!” Please do correct me if I’m wrong. I do not want to believe this is the case.

Well I do think you are wrong. It is entirely reasonable to ask someone to back up their accusation with evidence. In the case of me being accused of acting like a hypocritical Pharisee, I suggest the evidence for this was very weak indeed. But smoking is, for reasons I have repeatedly enumerated, clearly sin. I am wondering about your use of the word "inferences". I get the impression that you consider inferences to be arbitrary. I do not see this at all - many "inferences" are indeed substantiatable.

Aside from that, it’s apparent (to me anyway) that Christians smoking cigarettes (and we both agree that it is unhealthy) is a stickler for you. Perhaps if you stated your reason why,...

I have repeatedly given my argument for the sinfulness of smoking.

 

[mpok1519]

I can agree with this - at least in the case of cheeseburgers.

Cigarrettes are different in at least 2 respects:

1. They are demonstrably addictive - much more so than "cheeseburgers". So its much more likely that an occasional cigarette will evolve into 2 packs a day;

2. Cheeseburgers provide some nutrition - so there is a "good" side about cheeseburgers. I do not believe that this is so for cigarrettes.

Sure; but I would contend that cheeseburgers are just as addictive or even more addictive given the fact that there are more people out there who overconsume junkfood like cheeseburgers than there are cigarette
smokers. Obesity related deaths are actually very close behind cigarette related deaths. In a few years, there will be more obesity related deaths than smoking related deaths.

The movie "supersize me" is a good example; it showed how the mcdonalds was acting as an addictive drug; his brain and neurochemistry synced with the fast food. He felt terrible before having the junkfood fix, and then he felt terrible after the food.

 

[Drew]

Sure; but I would contend that cheeseburgers are just as addictive or even more addictive given the fact that there are more people out there who overconsume junkfood like cheeseburgers than there are cigarette smokers.

I doubt that cheeseburgers are really as truly addictive as cigarrettes and I suspect the medical experts would back this up. Besides, something does not have to truly addictive to become a problem. Many people simply drift into being overweight, realize what has happened, and then take the necessary action. For many of them, there is no real "addiction" to over-eating, but rather they have simply gotten lazy and careless. But I certainly agree that there are probably more people with junk-food problems than people who smoke. So, on balance, I would say bad eating is a "bigger" problem than smoking. So I generally agree with your post, even if I might disagree on the specifically addictive nature of the two behaviours at issue.

Obesity related deaths are actually very close behind cigarette related deaths. In a few years, there will be more obesity related deaths than smoking related deaths.

I totally agree with your prediction.

The movie "supersize me" is a good example; it showed how the mcdonalds was acting as an addictive drug; his brain and neurochemistry synced with the fast food. He felt terrible before having the junkfood fix, and then he felt terrible after the food.

Good point - I am not saying that there is not an addictive quality to over-eating (or eating junk food). However, I suspect the addiction to cigarrettes is fundamentally more difficult to break than an addiction to cheeseburgers and french fries.

 

[Mike]

Okay, the last few posts are getting back to the crux of the matter. Let us all stop with the personal side-bars and get back to a productive conversation addressing the topic at hand.

I say this for my own benefit as well as others.

Thanks! :yes

 

[farouk]

Okay, the last few posts are getting back to the crux of the matter. Let us all stop with the personal side-bars and get back to a productive conversation addressing the topic at hand.

I say this for my own benefit as well as others.

Thanks! :yes

M:

I agree.

It's good to keep on topic.

Part of the difficulty is that some ppl see the periphery as central, and the center as peripheral. In fact, if I don't keep Romans 14 and Christian liberty in view, how do I know whether some of my ideas are not more peripheral than central?

Bottom line, for me: it's good to quit smoking.

Whether a Christian man or woman smoking is always a sin, is quite another matter: I find it hard to go that far.

 

[Bonairos]

Okay, the last few posts are getting back to the crux of the matter. Let us all stop with the personal side-bars and get back to a productive conversation addressing the topic at hand.

I say this for my own benefit as well as others.

Thanks! :yes

Not a problem, no wait! It is a problem if I’m to be honest in a Christian forum community. My original OP was both to hear opinions AND the manner in which one responds.

So whether it was what was said or in the manner (line of reasoning, attitude, passion, spirit, etc.) it was relayed, I responded to both OP inquiries. And if I didn’t understand the post, I asked questions for clarity. If I did understand, I responded. If I understood and felt the post was worth pondering, I replied with an acknowledgement.

Nevertheless, I did not choose to become a new member (nor was my acceptance) based on who can be most argumentative, but rather to dialog with opinions and reasons for having them. There comes a time when dialoging with an individual can become unfruitful. I believe I’ve come to such a threshold. After all, if I am to objectively look at previous responses, one will have to conclude I have my answers.

That’s not to say, I have nothing more to say in a particular dialog. However, I already have my answers.

I have to agree, “The readers are not fools.†and will decide based on the (spiritual) values they each hold and live.

Forgive me Board. I was finding myself approaching yet another ‘Cross’- road in my life by being ruffled with inconsistencies and tempted to “go there.â€

Thank you Mike for allowing the Lord to use you and keep me personally in check.


Be blessed, Stay blessed.

 

[Sparkey]

If you are convicted by your own conscience and do it anyway then that breaking what you know to be right and true and following after temptation is sin.

It's interesting in a clean the outside of the cup but leave the inside filthy manner that many have brought judgment onto brothers and sisters for flimsy excuse. The bible is very clear about sin. We don't need to be putting our brotherly and sisterly accusations into it.

I knew one guy (a counselor at a local church, in fact) who said that anybody who chewed their nails and bit flesh from their fingers while doing so was guity of defiling the temple of God and perhaps of eating human flesh. Maybe that made him feel better? I dunno. He's a pastor now so I'm pretty sure he's matured and figured that one out. Can anybody else hear the Lord sigh as he looks upon the chanigans of his children? He loves us. You especially. He really does. That much I do know.

 

[Drew]

If you are convicted by your own conscience and do it anyway then that breaking what you know to be right and true and following after temptation is sin.

I doubt it. If I say "I was not 'convicted' that sleeping with friend's wife was sin, so it not sin", am I making Biblical sense? Hardly. Most, if not all of us here believe that the Bible, and not 'personal revelation and conviction' is the real authority. And even though smoking is not explicitly prohibited in the Scriptures, there are powerful Biblical reasons for believing that we can safely conclude that it is indeed "sin".

It's interesting in a clean the outside of the cup but leave the inside filthy manner that many have brought judgment onto brothers and sisters for flimsy excuse. The bible is very clear about sin. We don't need to be putting our brotherly and sisterly accusations into it.

I see no case at all in this thread that counters the argument that smoking is "sin".

Can anybody else hear the Lord sigh as he looks upon the chanigans of his children? He loves us. You especially. He really does. That much I do know.

As for me, I suspect that God is sighing over the fact that we engage in behaviours that work against His program of restoring His beloved creation to its Edenic state.

 

[cleanfreak]

the old adage "what would Jesus do" comes to mind. Would Jesus be found smoking?

................of course not, but on the other hand, would you really light one up if Jesus was physically in your presence? How about that 'knot' you feel in your stomach when you think about it? Conviction from the Holy Spirit perhaps?