Cigarette Smoking Christians

[Mike]

Jason, your last two posts were admittedly off topic. What are you trying to do with this thread?

The only time I get in a fury over smokers is when I see them driving, with the windows rolled up and children in the back seat! :angry Poor kids, left to marinate in that smoke by no choice of their own. Michigan is a smoke free state in all restaurants, bars, stores and workplaces. The only exceptions are "specialty tobacco outlets" and casinos. Every other building is smoke free. So, I don't run into them enough to get upset with them for invading my space.

 

[Nick]

I don't run into smokers much. All public places (even many that are not undercover) such as train and bus stations, many parks, etc are all smoke free and virtually every pub/club/restaurant and other business is smoke-free. It's great. Almost the only place smokers can smoke is in their house or car or in the middle of nowhere, or out in the streets where its open. I reallly don't want to be a passive smoker. I think the minimum on the spot fine for smoking where you're not supposed to is about $500.

 

[Chris]

But you can step away from the smoker. You can ask them not to smoke in your home. You can choose not to go in their homes and cars. If someone is smoking in a nonsmoking area, you can politely point out they are in a nonsmoking area. It is possible that out of habit they just pulled out a cigarette without thinking so the act was not a deliberate assault on your rights although it was thoughtless of them. You can choose not to go to restaurants and other places that permit smoking. At the same time, you do have to acknowledge their rights. They have a legal right to smoke.

There are lots of things I dislike or disagree with that I feel are spiritually destructive to an individual, and I would consider spiritually destructive things to be much worse than physically destructive things. However, even though I realize the destructive nature of stuff, I have to realize the legal and spiritual rights people have to make spiritually unhealthy choices. For example, I would consider believing evolution over creationism to be very spiritually unhealthy and destructive and even contributing to spiritual death to reject that God had His hand in creation. And I would find people that spread this lie of evolution to be spiritually lethal, but I don`t despise these people because I know not all of them believe and spread this lie to spiritually harm others. Like smoking there are various reasons why people latch on to this theory, and not all the reasons are harm inducing reasons. But of course, if someone spread it purely for the purpose of harm, then I would find that offensive just as if someone pulled out a cigarette and started smoking just to offend or harm a nonsmoker.

Why my previous responses- in my city where I live smoking in restaurants clubs bus stops workplaces has been restricted to areas designated for it. many people here who smoke just dont care they ignore the rules and walk over to you at the bus shelter sit next to you and light up. Others ignore the no smoking signs at food areas.. and just start smoking and blowing it all over other diners. I dont care what anyone says these are incredibly seffish people on many levels with a blatant disregard for anyone but their own interests. When you do an activity that impacts knowingly on another persons health that does not send a message of I love you, it sends one of I care about me and my smoking habit.

I soo cannot wait til its fully banned.. it wont be long

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, your last two posts were admittedly off topic. What are you trying to do with this thread?

The only time I get in a fury over smokers is when I see them driving, with the windows rolled up and children in the back seat! :angry Poor kids, left to marinate in that smoke by no choice of their own. Michigan is a smoke free state in all restaurants, bars, stores and workplaces. The only exceptions are "specialty tobacco outlets" and casinos. Every other building is smoke free. So, I don't run into them enough to get upset with them for invading my space.

weightliftin aka building is actually very bad for the body.

look at your local gym for the old body builders and ask them if they can lift all that heavy weight like they used too.

they cant why,joints can no longer take that

the point i was trying to make is that something in excess can be a sin as well.

and even damaging. one must decide for himself what is too much and not always assume that others must follow your lead.

 

[pjt]

Why my previous responses- in my city where I live smoking in restaurants clubs bus stops workplaces has been restricted to areas designated for it. many people here who smoke just dont care they ignore the rules and walk over to you at the bus shelter sit next to you and light up. Others ignore the no smoking signs at food areas.. and just start smoking and blowing it all over other diners. I dont care what anyone says these are incredibly seffish people on many levels with a blatant disregard for anyone but their own interests. When you do an activity that impacts knowingly on another persons health that does not send a message of I love you, it sends one of I care about me and my smoking habit.

I soo cannot wait til its fully banned.. it wont be long

I would agree with you then that if people see the no smoking signs, disdainfully ignore them and then blatently blow the smoke all over other diners with no regards to the rules, then I would say they are being selfish, rebellious, and hateful in their behaviour but I would not say it is because of the cigarettes. I`d attribute it to who they are as a person. You probably just have a bad group of people living around you because I don`t think all smokers trample over the rules like that. Many smokers will ask if you mind if they smoke if they perceive you are a nonsmoker, and I think most try to abide by the rules by going to the smoking designated areas. So I think you have the unfortunate encounter with a gang of hoodalum smokers. I don`t think they represent the entire smoking population. And unfortunately when smoking is completely banned, my guess is these hoodalums will still be blowing smoke or causing other trouble. A ban may just stir them up to more rebellion of one sort or another. I think you just have some bad apples around you.

 

[Theofilus]

But you can step away from the smoker. You can ask them not to smoke in your home. You can choose not to go in their homes and cars.

That doesn't always work.

The only time I get in a fury over smokers is when I see them driving, with the windows rolled up and children in the back seat! :angry Poor kids, left to marinate in that smoke by no choice of their own.

That's a good example of a case where it doesn't work. When I was a kid, my dad had a Ford Falcon, like this one.

I remember sitting in the back seat of that car with my older brother, while my mom lit up a cigarette and my dad lit his pipe. When I rolled down the window, I was told not to, because it was cold outside or because it was raining or for some other reason. I will never forget the feeling of hardly being able to breathe. The cigarette alone would have been bad enough, but do you have any idea how much smoke comes from a pipe when you first light it? I think people who smoke in enclosed spaces like that with children present should be charged with child abuse.

 

[Nick]

I remember sitting in the back seat of that car with my older brother, while my mom lit up a cigarette and my dad lit his pipe. When I rolled down the window, I was told not to, because it was cold outside or because it was raining or for some other reason. I will never forget the feeling of hardly being able to breathe. The cigarette alone would have been bad enough, but do you have any idea how much smoke comes from a pipe when you first light it? I think people who smoke in enclosed spaces like that with children present should be charged with child abuse.

They're considering that in Australia, I believe.
Now that I think about it, I think that smoking in the car with children is now illegal here, but they're contemplating adding child abuse charges I think.

 

[pjt]

I think people who smoke in enclosed spaces like that with children present should be charged with child abuse.

I would never charge a parent with child abuse for that because I think the trauma of seeing a parent arrested, removing children from the home, and going through foster care is far more abusive and destructive to a child. What could be done though is make a law where one could get a ticket for smoking in an enclosed car with children. It would be similiar to seat belt laws.

 

[Nick]

I would never charge a parent with child abuse for that because I think the trauma of seeing a parent arrested, removing children from the home, and going through foster care is far more abusive and destructive to a child. What could be done though is make a law where one could get a ticket for smoking in an enclosed car with children. It would be similiar to seat belt laws.

They do that here in Australia. So if you're smoking in a car with children then the fine is a heck of a lot greater than if you were simply smoking in a prohibited place.

But whether an actual child abuse charge is good, bad or practical or not, you've got to admit that smoking in an enclosed space like a car with a child is child abuse.

 

[cleanfreak]

They do that here in Australia. So if you're smoking in a car with children then the fine is a heck of a lot greater than if you were simply smoking in a prohibited place.

But whether an actual child abuse charge is good, bad or practical or not, you've got to admit that smoking in an enclosed space like a car with a child is child abuse.

Yes. it is....and I know first hand.....or is it second hand? :D

 

[Pizzaguy]

When you do an activity that impacts knowingly on another persons health that does not send a message of I love you, it sends one of I care about me and my smoking habit.

I soo cannot wait til its fully banned.. it wont be long

Probably will never happen in the USA - the smokers hide behind "freedom" and the political ruling class enjoy the tax revenue.

As long as there are tax dollars in it (and believe me, the gov't makes more per pack than the tobacco companies), there will be no ban.

 

[Drew]

Drew -

I’m not sure of your logic, “Definitions can be a cop-out, a way of oversimplifying something?†(emphasis mine) I think being vague and not defining the manner in which one uses words could be classified as more of a cop-out than in doing so. But then, that’s just me.

We each have our opinions. My point was that the world is complex and sometimes does not submit to neat, terse definitions. It is the easy path to say "sin is doing something that is explicitly prohibited in some 'rule' from the Bible". But I suggest that reality is not so simple.

For the sake dialog I will agree to that with one addition, “any activity that (an individual) works against that unfolding project. . . “

Ok - I like your addition.

Having said that, here is my (limited knowledge) definition of sin that I go by: “Any action (or lack of) that a person takes which is in direct contrast to what God has revealed to him or her.â€

I also believe there are several means in which the revelation of God (to include His plan, purpose, and will) may come to an individual (i.e. the bible, intimate prayer, others, and creation itself to name a few). Nonetheless, it becomes a personal revelation, a personal knowledge. And never will any such ‘revelation’ go against who He has revealed Himself to be as declared in His written word.

I am, frankly, suspicious of this kind of argument. You do realize, I trust, that someone can say "Look, I have never been 'told' by God that smoking is sin, and since its not prohibited in the Bible, it is not sin for me." I confess that I am deeply suspicious about the "personal" revelations line of thinking. For one thing, the Bible clearly presents a "communal" model for Christian living and we, in the 21st century west, are heirs to enlightenment individualism. I think we need to return to a more community-oriented model for "doing Christianity".

You can use this "personal revelation" argument to effectively side-step having to deal with the very solid arguments against smoking. As I said above, anybody can claim any personal revelation. But I suggest the path of responsibility is to face the cold hard facts:

(1) Smoking kills and wreaks suffering;
(2) God is working against death and suffering;
(3) To smoke is to therefore work against God - clearly this must be sin.

By using the "personal revelation" line, you can avoid having to engage with what I think are solid Biblical and scientific "facts".

If it were possible for our physical (decaying, earthly) bodies to be restored to its’ “Edenic state, or something similar†(and by ‘Edenic’ I assume you mean as in the Garden of Eden) then I could see myself on board with you (based on your definition of sin). Yet we know that is not possible; hence a new body we look forward to.

I think you might wish to re-consider the nature of the kingdom of God. Despite the frankly heretical views of many here, the kingdom is already underway. And while the great consummation remains in the future, God is already accomplishing things related to Edenic restoration. Look at medicine - great strides have been accomplished at healing the human body. This is not something other than kingdom work - it is kingdom work. The medical community, whether it realizes it or not, is doing "kingdom of God" work.

I must repeat: the fact that smoking is not explicitly identified as sin in the Bible is hardly grounds for thinking its ok. That view reflects an approach that sees the Bible as a kind of "instruction manual". It is not primarly that at all. It is instead the unfolding narrative of a God ar work in the world to restore and heal it. If we view Bible this way, it is no great leap to conclude that any activity that is anti-life is anti-healing is, yes, sin.

And smoking is always these things - no exceptions.

 

[Drew]

There are lots of things I dislike or disagree with that I feel are spiritually destructive to an individual, and I would consider spiritually destructive things to be much worse than physically destructive things

I cannot emphasize enough that there is simply no Biblical reason whatsoever to endorse this categorization of "spiritual sin" vs "physical sins", with the attendant belief that the "physical sins" are less important. Yet many believe it. And this error is in no small measure for the deeply "anti-Kingdom" epidemic of obesity in North America. When we believe that it does not really matter that much how we treat the body - which is the temple of the Holy Spirit I will remind you all - this is what happens.

 

[Pizzaguy]

And this error is in no small measure for the deeply "anti-Kingdom" epidemic of obesity in North America. When we believe that it does not really matter that much how we treat the body - which is the temple of the Holy Spirit I will remind you all - this is what happens.

Boy, are you gonna get it for that one!

You are RIGHT, but BOY are you gonna get it for that one. :yes

Ya got guts, Drew, that's for sure.

 

[Drew]

Boy, are you gonna get it for that one!

You are RIGHT, but BOY are you gonna get it for that one. :yes

I fully expect to take some heat for that comment. And I suggest it is "on-topic" in the sense that it is an example of the problem that arises when we diminish the importance of the physical in respect to God's program of redemption and restoration.

I submit that when Jesus healed people, he was not primarily doing so in order to "show He was God", He was primarily doing so in order to demonstrate the true human vocation (in the kingdom) of being an agent of healing. In other words, as the "second Adam", Jesus is saying that healing of the body is the vocation of those who are members of the kingdom.

And cigarrette smoking and over-eating accomplish precisely the opposite - they
are acts that harm the body, rather than heal it.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I fully expect to take some heat for that comment. And I suggest it is "on-topic" in the sense that it is an example of the problem that arises when we diminish the importance of the physical in respect to God's program of redemption and restoration.

I admit I'd not thought about the physical in respect to redemption and restoration - but then, the Baptist church does not speak about it much.

I submit that when Jesus healed people, he was not primarily doing so in order to "show He was God", He was primarily doing so in order to demonstrate the true human vocation (in the kingdom) of being an agent of healing. In other words, as the "second Adam", Jesus is saying that healing of the body is the vocation of those who are members of the kingdom.

I wish I could agree with that... and I wish/hope it was true (remember, I have a sister dying of M.S.), but I dont' see any present or historical case to be made that we are "ministers of physical healing" (if that is an accurate portrayal of your position).

And cigarette smoking and over-eating accomplish precisely the opposite - they are acts that harm the body, rather than heal it.

No argument there. I am continually mindful of the fact that those who over eat and lack exercise make excuses for it just like smokers do - while they sit there and condemn smokers.

 

[elijah23]

How 'bout those Cigarette Smoking Christians?!

Good? Bad?
Okay? Not Okay?
Saved? Not Saved?
Habit? Sin? Habitual sin?

I'm interested to hear your opinion AND the manner in which you express them.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

I think it is a sin to use tobacco.

 

[pjt]

I cannot emphasize enough that there is simply no Biblical reason whatsoever to endorse this categorization of "spiritual sin" vs "physical sins", .

But I am not catagorizing smoking as a physical sin or any kind of a sin. I have stated that I do not necessarily think smoking is a sin which is why I said spiritual harm is worse than physical.

 

[Hitch]

The truth of the matter is simple.

No one should ever be allowed to do anything I dont like

 

[Alabaster]

How 'bout those Cigarette Smoking Christians?!

Good? Bad?
Okay? Not Okay?
Saved? Not Saved?
Habit? Sin? Habitual sin?

I'm interested to hear your opinion AND the manner in which you express them.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

They stink!

Beside that, all we can hope is that the Holy Spirit will get hold of them and they will hear Him loud and clear. If it is someone we know well, then we can speak into that life without browbeating, but people have their own walks with God. Some are far along that narrow path and others are behind. some are nearly falling off, but we can only show by example how to live.

When people make changes for the better in their lives, the successful changes are usually those made in response to the Holy Spirit, and not a well-meaning friend, and certainly not distant acquaintances or strangers making remarks.