Cigarette Smoking Christians

[Sparkey]

I doubt it. If I say "I was not 'convicted' that sleeping with friend's wife was sin, so it not sin", am I making Biblical sense? .

No, you're just being silly. God has stated directly that fornication and adultery are sin and you know it. The bible clearly delineates what is and isn't sinful in the general and then we are personally convicted by the working of the Holy Spirit for the specific. If you are not sure about if it is sinful to fornicate, read the bible - if there are any remaining doubts, ask God. Trust that He will answer. The bible doesn't address smoking specifically but it does address the attitude of divisiveness. We are to strive for the unity of the faith, clearly. There is no room for the Spanish Inquisition in the body of Christ. I used an example of a brother who thought it sin to bite his fingernails - and I believe that it is biblical to acknowledge that to him that would be sin. Lawfulness and obedience is the message preached. Not self-righteousness.

You ask that if you sear your conscience to the point that you can no longer discern sin then this means that you are holy? That's a very tenuous position, especially in light of the admonition that we are to clean the inside of the cup and remove the log from our eye first. Then we can help our brother and sister --and that help doesn't include standing alongside of the Accuser of the brethren and hurling stones.

At the risk of starting a side-battle that nobody wants, let me ask, "Is eating swineflesh sin?" God did actually say something about that. My conclusion is that yes, for a Jewish man or woman who have been raised to follow the law of Moses and believe that it is sin (for them) - then for them it is sin. Given the choice of doing something that you know is sinful or eschewing evil -eschew ye well. This though has nothing to do with the salvation that was delivered once through the sacrifice of one man. Nobody is saved by following the law, instead we are saved by the exchange of our sin for His righteousness. Jesus clearly showed the way back to the Father and it isn't by holding sin against people but instead it comes from trust and faith and yes, love. How lovely is it for any to cast stones in the Pharisitical belief that we can by our righteousness pursuade (force) God to keep up with our holiness???

 

[Drew]

No, you're just being silly. God has stated directly that fornication and adultery are sin and you know it.

I am not being silly. But I will not repeat the Biblical argument that I (and others) have been making against smoking. If you wish to engage it, it is in a number of the posts. The "it can't be a sin if its not in the Bible" line is clearly not correct.

Lawfulness and obedience is the message preached. Not self-righteousness.

Where is actual evidence of self-righteousness?

At the risk of starting a side-battle that nobody wants, let me ask, "Is eating swineflesh sin?" God did actually say something about that.

It would be for a Jew living during the time when the Law of Moses was in force.

Nobody is saved by following the law, instead we are saved by the exchange of our sin for His righteousness.

I see no evidence in the scriptures at all for this idea that we are "imputed" the righteousness of Christ. We are imputed a "righteousness", but not the righteousness of Christ.

Jesus clearly showed the way back to the Father and it isn't by holding sin against people....

Perhaps one poster has, at times, been judgemental against smokers.
But that poster was certainly not me. And you will find no evidence at all that I am "judgemental" in the sense you are implying.

Acknowledging that smoking is sin is not being judgemental anymore than acknowledging that kicking puppies, or insider trading, is sin.

How lovely is it for any to cast stones in the Pharisitical belief that we can by our righteousness pursuade (force) God to keep up with our holiness???

Ah, the old "you are acting like a Pharisee" card. Its been played already, and really not appropriately. You cannot simply "presume" that those who make a Biblical case for the sinfulness of smoking are adopting a Pharisaical attitude. You need to give actual evidence. Good luck.

 

[farouk]

the old adage "what would Jesus do" comes to mind. Would Jesus be found smoking?

................of course not, but on the other hand, would you really light one up if Jesus was physically in your presence? How about that 'knot' you feel in your stomach when you think about it? Conviction from the Holy Spirit perhaps?

cleanfreak:

I think the preacher Spurgeon smoked.

The anti-smoking this (maybe a good idea) came in, in a big way only after the American Civil War.

Before, it was widely practised for church people to smoke, and to join in when others did.

 

[Drew]

Before, it was widely practised for church people to smoke, and to join in when others did.

This is entirely understandable. I believe that I (and others) have been arguing that smoking is sin solely on the grounds that it does great bodliy harm. If that were not the case, I would not assert that it is sin.

And it is only in the last 30 or so years that the health dangers of smoking have been fully understood.

 

[cleanfreak]

cleanfreak:

I think the preacher Spurgeon smoked.

The anti-smoking this (maybe a good idea) came in, in a big way only after the American Civil War.

Before, it was widely practised for church people to smoke, and to join in when others did.

very true, but I can't help but think they would be putting them out the moment Jesus walked through the door.

 

[farouk]

This is entirely understandable. I believe that I (and others) have been arguing that smoking is sin solely on the grounds that it does great bodliy harm. If that were not the case, I would not assert that it is sin.

And it is only in the last 30 or so years that the health dangers of smoking have been fully understood.

Drew:

In fact, prior to World War 2, Life magazine even publicized classes among prominent people, with the purpose of teaching women how to smoke.

It was then regarded as a positive, desirable, benign and classy thing for a lady to do and to aspire to.

 

[Sparkey]

I am not being silly. Ah, the old "you are acting like a Pharisee" card. Its been played already, and really not appropriately. You cannot simply "presume" that those who make a Biblical case for the sinfulness of smoking are adopting a Pharisaical attitude. You need to give actual evidence. Good luck.

You allege that there are others with you somewhere who believe in similar manner. So? What does that matter? You've stated that I'm trying to play the Pharisee card and that others have also. So then, by your logic when others agree with you it should be counted, when they disagree with you it should be discounted.

Jesus said that our righteousness need be greater than that of the Pharisees. They made a show of being righteous and following the law with the idea that if they held their side of the bargain then God would be forced to hold up His end.

The soverign lord of the universe will do what He purposes to do and not because of anything you or I do but because it is His will that is accomplished. That's the good news. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Here, now. God is our God and we are His people. Knowing this, and knowing that we count His long-suffering toward us as our salvation - our UNDESERVED favor (not deserved), how much more should we hold kindness in our hearts and continue to love our brothers and sisters whom we can see and stop pretending that we love only what we cannot see.

Serious.

 

[Free]

I'm curious, seeing as that we're made in God's image (as all humans are), temples of the Holy Spirit who are to reflect God to the world and then turn and worship God, reflecting love from the world back to him, walking in the Spirit in such a way that we develop the fruit of the Spirit, set apart and on the path of sanctification, a royal priesthood, seeking to be holy and blameless, how is it clearly not a sin to smoke?

No one?

 

[Bonairos]

I'm curious, seeing as that we're made in God's image (as all humans are), temples of the Holy Spirit who are to reflect God to the world and then turn and worship God, reflecting love from the world back to him, walking in the Spirit in such a way that we develop the fruit of the Spirit, set apart and on the path of sanctification, a royal priesthood, seeking to be holy and blameless, how is it clearly not a sin to smoke?


No one?

Sorry, my bad. I thought Hitch (#181) was willing to take you up on that and you declined (# 182).

Nonetheless, I’ll be ‘one’. And seeing I’m somewhat familiar (by following this thread) who knows who, I’ll attempt to dialog with you.

But before I do, I just want to get your guidelines for dialog. Evidence for evidence? Or inferences for inferences?

And since I’m willing to dialog based on your guidelines, You go first.

“How is smoking cigarettes clearlya sin?â€


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[Sparkey]

No, of course that is not what he is saying. Anyone reading this can see that his statement was a direct response to your implying that he is acting as a Pharisee. You did play the "Pharisee Card," so his statement is justified. Your statement above, however, is not.


No one?

Free - You don't know me well enough to just talk to me like that. If you are putting your moderator hat on and have something to say, fine. Just let me know. Read his statements again - here, I'll fetch them. THEN tell me if my conclusions are justified.

But I will not repeat the Biblical argument that I (and others) have been making against smoking. If you wish to engage it, it is in a number of the posts.

See the appeal to the masses there? It's a logical fallacy. The "I (and others)" argument (or justification, if you like that word better) do not qualify as proof any more than they do justification. It is a false appeal that not only I but also others believe this (and that in and of itself makes my claims true).

When Drew comes forward and admits that he has been confronted for his pharisitical behaviors before it does very little to dismiss my impression. So now, I'm curious -- are you, Free one of the ones who throw stones at brothers and sisters in Lord who are smokers? Nevermind, I don't need your answer.

 

[Sparkey]

My 7 year old kid learned about drugs at school last week. Well, he mostly learned that mommy was going to die, because she pops open a beer at dinner time. So, we had to counteract the hysterics by teaching him about moderation. We talked about how one glass of wine a day has actually been shown to be good for your heart.

The problem that the above quote shows about the DARE program is that it is not honest. That's the same problem with the propaganda campaign being launched here. Smokers are not the reason that prevents God from restoring Edenic paradise on earth. It is our adulterous and faithless hearts. We don't truely believe that Jesus has already paid the full price for the sin of mankind. His work wasn't good enough. That's what I'm hearing here. Show me if I'm wrong about that and I'll stand down. Else, we as a group need to stop casting stones. I'll apologize then for my remarks about Pharisitical behaviors, but only if there is no hint of "I am so much better than that sinner, the smoker" stuff.

 

[GracenMercy]

I have been silently listening to this conversation amongst "believers" concerning cigarette smoking being "Sin"...it is incredible the way this one "thing" can bring such disagreement and judgment within the "Body of Christ".

I want to make it plain to those who have been passionate about their stance (whatever it may be)...

I am a smoking "Christian"! OOOOOOHHHHHHH!! I said it! Is there really such thing??? I would have to say, Yes! Because I am proof that we exist.

Now, before you get your panties all in a wad, let me say that I do not believe it is Gods best for me or anyone else. So, please spare me the arguments of how bad it is for my health. Yes I agree it is not healthy.

But before you make your judgments about me because I have identified myself as a "smoking Christian"...I have an answer to every argument you may want to throw at me.

My faith lies in Jesus and what He's already done for me.

Someone asked if I would light up in front of Jesus if he were to walk into the room....I do everyday of my life. When I am eating...showering...when I am sitting on the toilet and yes, even when I light up I am in His presence. There is nothing I or you can do in secret. Nothing is hidden from our God!

It is His Grace and Mercy that I daily reach for when I wake up each morning. It is His Wonderful Holy Spirit that leads me into all truth. It is my Father that I run to when I am weak...Even when I am smoking.

So, to answer the question, “How about them cigarette smoking Christians?†My answer to this very probing question is…†We alright!!!â€

PRAISE GOD!!

 

[Aldrich]

I say it a sin because all the thing that can cause addiction are not to be used.... Because it effect's our body system and also immune system and weaken our health... Smoking is much dangerous for health and it also decreases the life of a smoker fastly....

 

[Drew]

You allege that there are others with you somewhere who believe in similar manner. So? What does that matter?

Not the point. Your error is in presuming a Pharasaical attitude on the part of me (and perhaps others) with no evidence to support such an accusation.

You've stated that I'm trying to play the Pharisee card and that others have also. So then, by your logic when others agree with you it should be counted, when they disagree with you it should be discounted.

I have no idea what your point is. The point remains: you accused me (and perhaps other) of being Pharisaical. Is there any actual evidence to support this? No, there is not.

Jesus said that our righteousness need be greater than that of the Pharisees. They made a show of being righteous and following the law with the idea that if they held their side of the bargain then God would be forced to hold up His end.

This is hardly an argument that we should not seek to behave righteously. You (and others) seem to assume that an assertion that smoking is "sin" necessarily means the person who makes this claim is being self-righteous, or believes that their acts of moral effort will save them. I suggest that you simply cannot assume this. It is indeed possible to legitimately assert that smoking is sin without doing any of these things.

....how much more should we hold kindness in our hearts and continue to love our brothers and sisters whom we can see and stop pretending that we love only what we cannot see.

There is no evidence in anything I have posted that supports this rude and uncharitable implication about me.

I am used to it though - actually being able to support claims around here is not held to be important by many.

 

[reba]

Not the point. Your error is in presuming a Pharasaical attitude on the part of me (and perhaps others) with no evidence to support such an accusation.

The most of this thread is evidence.

 

[Drew]

But before I do, I just want to get your guidelines for dialog. Evidence for evidence? Or inferences for inferences?

This was not directed to me, but I wish to comment on it.

This statement, I believe, presumes something that is fundamentally incorrect. And the presumption is that one cannot legitimately proceed from general principles to application of those general principles in a specific context.

This is the lynchpin of some of the "smoking is not sin" arguments in this thread. The argument seems to be this: there is no explicit "thou shalt not sin" directive in the Bible, therefore we cannot say that it is sin.

This is clearly an over-simplification and demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the Bible functions to provide moral guidance. I suggest it is rather clear that the Bible is not an index of commands to cover all life situations. It is a narrative about God at work in the world, solving the problem of sin and death and reclaiming his good creation. Yes there are "commandments and rules" along the way. But we must lose the big picture that God is at work to reclaim his "very good" physical creation. So He clearly cares about His world and is, at great personal cost, working to heal it, to restore it, to fix it.

Within this narrative, it is rather clear that there is a general principle that we, as agents of God's work, should be pursuing the goal of healing the world physically. This is not our only task, but it is an important task nonetheless.

So it is not an arbitrary "inference" to conclude that smoking is sin, even in the absence of a specific command about smoking. We can discern general principles of what God wants us to do and apply them to specific situations.

Like smoking.

 

[Drew]

The most of this thread is evidence.

Is evasion a national pastime here? If there is any evidence of me (or others) being Pharisaical, please provide it - don't just imply that the evidence lies all over the the thread.

Well if it does, then it should be easy for you to find some. I await.....

 

[reba]

It was the words and attitude of the Pharisees. Yours is as clear as theirs. There are other sins ya know

Is evasion a national pastime here? If there is any evidence of me (or others) being Pharisaical, please provide it - don't just imply that the evidence lies all over the the thread.

Well if it does, then it should be easy for you to find some. I await...

There ya go

 

[Drew]

The problem that the above quote shows about the DARE program is that it is not honest. That's the same problem with the propaganda campaign being launched here.

Please tell us - how, exactly, are the arguments that smoking is "sin" propaganda?

Smokers are not the reason that prevents God from restoring Edenic paradise on earth. It is our adulterous and faithless hearts. We don't truely believe that Jesus has already paid the full price for the sin of mankind. His work wasn't good enough. That's what I'm hearing here. Show me if I'm wrong about that and I'll stand down.

Well you are wrong. No one is denying that Jesus dies on the cross and how central that is. But you are, I suggest, going to be in very thin company if you really believe that it is not important how we actually live in light of what Jesus has done.

You and others imagine hypocrisy and self-righteousness when the evidence for this is scant indeed. The western church has forgotten about the "kingdom of God" - God's program is not limited to "getting us to heaven when we die". It is a sweeping program of redemption, healing, and reclamation in which the physical world is to be liberated from its slavery to decay (Romans 8). In that setting, we, as kingdom-builders, need to be in the business of co-operating with that programme by taking proper care of our precious bodies.

And smoking works against the healing of creation. So how can it not be "sin"?

 

[Drew]

It was the words and attitude of the Pharisees. Yours is as clear as theirs. There are other sins ya know

Why do you continue to make accusations without supporting them with evidence from my posts? Show me where I have posted something that is "Pharisaical".