I apologize in advance for the mere bulk of this post but please bear with me and consider all I have to say. This is some more "meat" like Francis gave to me, so please regard what I have to say.
Not true. All repented unrighteousness.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
I know, I may have poorly worded that sentance but I had 1 John 1:9 in mind. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
The ‘new man’ is a goal to the NT people just as it was in the OT. Paul didn’t say we put on incorruption already but in a future event that we will be changed and then put on that which is incorruptible. That coming is the finality of the ‘new man’ that is decided at resurrection.
We do have a completely completed "new man", though you are right we do not always live in its nature. There is a past sense of the creation of this new man - so it is not an incomplete creation, "
You have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him"
(Colossians 3:9-10).
I do not deny that we are changed daily, but I propose we (our souls) are changed daily by putting on the new man which is infact perfect and from God - our defining nature according to covenant. However we stumble some times and put on the old man and dabble in the flesh. Thus the soul is the battle ground - however, we see Paul accounting his "new man" as his true nature while saying that "in his flesh dwells nothing good", and it is no longer him that sins (banking on his new nature as defined in Christ). The only reason I bring this up is that there is a new division that is completed in the NT that was not (in my understanding) present in the OT. We have been set free from the flesh legally
(Romans 7:1-6), it having been crucified, and corruption & temptation comes from its remnants which we have the freewill to give into (because we have not yet recieved the redemption of our bodies
(Romans 7:24-25)). However we also have the new creation in us which God desires us to put on for sanctification, and when we do sin we have an advocate if we confess and repent
(1 John 1:9) and now there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
(Romans 8:1). And we are not of our own. This is the difference: we have that new nature and God commits judgement on our behalf in relation to that new creation (imputing sin & righteousness according to the terms of the new covenant) and the grace he has given us. We are responsible for giving in to the flesh (the consequences of which are stated in
1 Corinthians 3:11-15) but our new man is undefiled and is positionally clean. Being "in Christ" is also a NT phenomenon and defines a new nature and new way of living not present in the OT.
People were able to come near God (like Moses) and be a friend of God (like David) in the OT but they were not a new creation in the inside that
partook of the Divine nature and who had
crucified their flesh (also being legally seperated from it). God's mercy and grace as given in the OT accounted their faith as righteousness to preserve and save them for the day they could be fully redeemed in light of Jesus' sacrifice, but we live in in light of that presently (since we are legally divorced from the flesh in the NT). Jesus told his disciples that they were blessed for they were seeing what many prophets and righteous men had desired to see in their day yet who had died without seeing it come to pass
(Matthew 13:17). The ultimate effects on the saints in the OT and the NT are no different but I propose that the way of current living is indeed different and
not entirely parallel with the OT, for we are given a new nature which enables us to come closer to God without condemnation
presently, and we are enabled to put on Christ himself (which is the essence of our new man) and sin will not be accounted to us who persevere because there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
Let’s say “six flags†opens at 9 am. There are people who bought tickets at 7 am and were waiting on the opening. Then at 9 am it opened and they got in and enjoyed the rides. Then some bought tickets at 10 am and got in and started enjoying the rides. Now just because the 7 am ticketers had to wait that doesn’t take away the same fun that is available for the people who got in at 10 am. The waiting has no bearing on the ride. The rides regardless started at 9 am and that is when every one got to enjoy them. The OT and NT people get their final “new creation†the same time. It is realized at the same time in resurrection for all. Even heaven and earth are made new at this time and the old things melt and pass away. That is when the “jot and tittle†of the Word of God fulfilled its purpose.
Well if you are paralleling the "ride" to the blessing of our redemption after death, then yes, absolutely the effects are absolutely the same in the end - I never denied that. However I emphasise that we in the NT period experience those blessings and a new nature presently before we die by enjoying the mercifully given Spirit and our new nature so that God can begin saving to the uttermost & effectually
presently by drawing people. And for those of us who make our election sure we recieve the basis for our rejoicing in hope
presently in this life knowing that we
will recieve the full reward in the end.
God brought the beginnings of his Kingdom to us already, though it is not in its full form,
we are presently living in it. That is what Jesus came to proclaim "
Behold, the Kingdom of God is at hand." We have a measure of realized eschatology presently, though not in its full form. Many eternal, future promises and blessings are conveyed to the Saints
presently in light of their regeneration and the present reality of being
in the Kingdom of God and us dwelling in God and He in us. Jesus told us this plainly and said that
the Kingdom of God is currently in us (Luke 17:21). This is different than the OT.
I only make this point to show - not that it is impossible to fall from this blessing after God has called you - but that we have
more realized promises in the present, we have a new nature, and the constant indwelling Spirit as
NT-covenant-specific blessings in accordance with God's grace and mercy which he promised the OT to give in the
future. And even at Pentecost Peter realized the beginning of the fulfillment of such end times prophecies that were currently being realized (manifested) and lived in. The verse from Joel of God pouring out his Spirit on all flesh is
not yet 100% realized (affected in full manifestation) yet Peter realized the beginnings of it, and how God during the Church age created a transitional period to gradually usher in his Kingdom by beginning to build it upon Jesus' death, ressurection, and ascension. We are beginning to experience and taste the begginings of the end time's promises because God is ushering in much of it presently (bringing the eschatological promises to us) since he is justified now in bestowing that level & amount of grace on us (For "
The Lord longs to be gracious to you" - and now he is doing it more than ever before - and in more Power - which effects more liberty for those in the Spirit).
I do not subscribe to the dispensational theory in the strictest of sense. The only dispensation I know is of God’s word as commandments in the OT and in the flesh as Christ in the NT.
I wasn't specifically recalling the doctrines of "Dispensation" (however varied they may be), but rather was using the word in its ordinary dictionary sense, just to make the point that much has changed in God's dispensation and pouring out of blessing upon us because we are already begginning to be ushered into God's eternal kingdom, we are already assembling for the Bridegroom's wedding, it is already in the preparation stages right now and we are making our way towards that final Kingdom according to God's calling. Under the NT dispensation of God's blessings and His Spirit we can begin to do something never before possible until Jesus came:
The Spirit and Bride crying "Come!" in unison, because God has already made us new (positionally - though there are exceptions for absolute apostacy), and called us into his marvelous light, and placed his Spirit in us, and is preparing us for the
full manifestation of his kingdom which he is currently assembling his saints for (thus "
Come!"). God looks at us with eternal eyes and we who are called and who have made our election sure can say like Paul one day "I have fought the good fight", and God has given to all such people present, and
extremely real promises of the Kingdom and eternal life, according to the portion he has deemed proper,
presently as we live. We live in the transitional period of God's Kingdom and are living in the beginning stages of a presently "
realized eschatology", and thus have many blessings bestowed on us like never seen before.
Again, even if the operations were different this is available to us as a process not a one time justification, imputation and redemption. We cannot conclude this contrary to the evidence of the gospels and epistles. But it is a fallacy to say that they did not have the operations of justification, imputation and redemption.
I never said they were absent, I merely said it was dispensed differently. Things were veiled and held back in the OT, yet God has already begun to break open the storehouses of Heaven and pour his many promises down upon his people in the Church Age like never before, as I have spoken on extensively above. I argue this puts us in a slightly
different position than the OT saints, and that we do have the beginnings of a
new essential nature within us that the OT saints were promised but never experienced in their lifetime (the nature in constant communion with the Spirit - the "new man" - the new creation "in Christ" - partaking of the divine nature). The NT blessings are transitional as I mentioned above, and are not the fully completed eschatalogical blessings - not fully manifested - but we are in a special tranistional period where much of the eschatalogical blessings are poured out on us
presently, thus future, eternal promises are atleast partially realized in us presently because of God's grace.
So basically just because someone was born in the ‘wrong’ era they were not able to be saved to the uttermost and since we were lucky enough to be born in the fulfillment times that we get to enjoy this to the uttermost? God is not a respecter of persons regardless of what century they were born in. OT saints are saved to the uttermost following the Word of God which is realized in Christ.
I hope I have answered this above. The effect is absolutely the same but I say we have experienced the grace of God coming to us presently, with a measure of his future promises given now, to such a degree that we are changed like never previously seen before Jesus came. That is why we have become a new creation, have the indwelling Spirit, and live presently with eternal life in us through abiding
in God, and it is possible to live presently in hope and rejoicing, for those who have made their election sure.
God Bless,
~Josh
Although, we have side tracked a bit from the oppening post I still want to continue the latest discussion. But yes I try to pay very close attention to what the Bible says without assuming too much, and thus I discovered some instances (with the help of a few reference materials) where belief was used in a questionable sense. I guess now we are debating on what true belief entails and I am specifically looking at (now, in the last couple posts) the effect of initial salvation on the NT believer. I think we are trying to distinguish how similar or dissimilar NT salvation is to OT salvation. I'm trying to err on the side of caution, so I am emphasising the differences, as to highlight the amazing impact that Christ had on salvation history.