Bible Study Colossians 1:16-20 Question

[Relic]

Colossians 1:16-20 (King James Version) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1. What does this passage mean to you?


Also,

2. Do you think this means that ALL will "eventually" be reconciled and then be able to enter into heaven?

3. What of those who refuse to accept the fact that Jesus gave his life on the cross for the remission of sins?
4. Are they "all" eventually going to accept Jesus, even in the afterlife, when and if, they are awakened from their sleep in the grave?
5. Will they be wiped off from the face of existence?
6. Will they be purged through fire and then be able to enter into heaven?
7. Once they are in heaven, will they be able to still fall from the grace of God and follow after the likes of Lucifer?
8. (Remember) Lucifer was once in heaven! Is he going to be reconciled?
9. What happens to Him in the final analysis?
10. Is he still going to be evil for ever and ever, without end?
11. If so where is his place?
12. Will individuals still be subject to his temptings and will some still be able to fall for his deceptions?
13. Where is their place in the end of it all?


Yes, or no and give explanation, please.

The bible gives clear answers.

14. What are your findings?

15. Can you provide scritpures that show what happens to those who do not accept the blood of Christ as their redemption from sins of the world?

16. Can you provide scirptures that show what happens to those who are followers of Satan?

17. Do you think the followers of Satan/Lucifer are going to have a second chance sometime in existence to be reconciled,
18. If so, please show me the scripture that says so?




There is so much debate about these things on this board,
I just want to clarify and see what you all come up with.



[edited by relic] to add more questions
.

 

[Relic]

.

I've added 17 questions.

Can someone please provide the answers? :angel:


.

 

[Rick W]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So we see that there are those that will indeed be condemned.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;
It does not mean all will be saved as some would like to believe. For if it did then Christ lied in John 3:16-18.

The enemy will be vanquished, the conflict settled, resolved once and for all that came about by the fall of man. He will change "all of creation" from one of conflict to one of peace within the new creation.

2Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I'm not even going to debate this with you. If God doesn't give you eyes to see and ears to hear, then you will not understand. I am thankful to God that He gave me the ability to understand this simple truth and I take no credit for learning these things. Twist this Scripture how you will.

 

[Rick W]

Gendou Ikari,
While it may appear at first glance that relic is advocating universal salvation I don't believe that's the case. :wink:

There is so much debate about these things on this board,
I just want to clarify and see what you all come up with.

Do you think the followers of Satan/Lucifer are going to have a second chance sometime in existence to be reconciled,

Satan and his followers will be vanquished, death conquered. Then peace will rein through Christ, (that is, without enmity -- gone) then all is reconciled to Him. Seems to be a matter of chronology anyway since the main conflict has yet to occur. Armageddon.

 

[Relic]

Gendou Ikari,
While it may appear at first glance that relic is advocating universal salvation I don't believe that's the case. :wink:

Gendou replied the way he did because he is an advocate of UR. :-?


===========================================


In regards to the inquiry I made in the original post, I don't believe Satan and his followers will be reconciled. But I do believe Satan will have his place outside of the gates of heaven.

Some people think Hitler and other mass murderers are in heaven because of Christ dying on the cross for them, thereby, redeeming them. But the fact is that there are counterfeits who claim they are Christians, but really they are just liars and are not really Christian-like in any of their actions or beliefs. They are not OF Christ at all! , but are of those spoken of in Revelation 21:8 and Revelation 22:15

The question is....
Will Satan and his followers "eventually", someplace in time, even after the battle of armageddon, at any time, in the future be reconciled in Christ and thereby have a place opened up to them in heaven?

Can Satan ever get back into heaven? :o

I would think, the answer is no,and any one who follows after Satan cannot either... How can they? :-?

PotLuck,
Yes, Thank you, I believe the words of Jesus say it clearly enough:

• John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To believe in something is to also have confidence that what is being believed in is being acted out in ones own life, to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith. Hence the term; saving faith.

When a person is OF Christ, they are not just a bump on the log, having no integrity or accountability in their life. Christianity is pro-active, it is not de-active-ated as you are living your life.
Some people just don't see they are living a lie if they are not live IN Christ-like Holy Spirit, working "through" their own lives. :roll:
You can't be a Christian without it having an effect on you or others around you.
I'll tell you, I've had plenty of people who wanted to drag me into their sins, and I've lost their friendship because I said no to participating in it with them. People who are into being drunken, fornicators, whoremongers, into so called casual drug use, idolizing their own means of entertainment, pornography, acting as if certain types of music was irrelevant. etc. All kinds of dirty joke telling, swearing, unbecoming behaviors. People of all walks of life, not thinking anything of how they live their lives. Instead of being stewarts of Christ, living without committing to sin in their lives, they don't want to give it up, and they look upon you as being geeky or weird, or no fun, if you don't participate with them. Some of my so called friends just don't come around anymore because I quit drinking, I quit having casual sex, I quit casual drugs, I quit living recklessly, and I am stiving to live a cleaned up life. They acted like I was some freak and no more fun. well, maybe so to them but at least I am not harvesting that kind of life style any longer. It just about ruined me. Now my life is being renewed daily as I live without that recklessness in my life. :-? These days, seems that's what many people think for themselves as being fun and entertaining. Little do they think of the consequences of that kind of life style upon themselves and upon others around them. They live recklessly without concern for themselves or others around them. And they just don't want to let it go. Drinking and whoring around is more important than cleaning up their act. They refuse to face and slay the Goliath in thier life. Sad, so sad.

So then, is living that kind of unrepentant life being reconciled to Christ? I would think not. Those people who call themselves Christians, but act differently. Is that walking IN Christ? No, because without repentance, there is no reconciliation to him. A person has to be willing.

condemned means to put asunder, separate,
it has many other variations to the word relative the the scripture in which it is used.
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2919


Those who are of Satan are separate, put aside. They have their place outside of the gates of heaven, as it is stated in the very last chapter of the book of Revelation.

• Revelation 22:14-15
  14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

So then, I'm just wondering what everyone else has to say on this.



.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

So then, is living that kind of unrepentant life being reconciled to Christ? I would think not. Those people who call themselves Christians, but act differently. Is that walking IN Christ? No, because without repentance, there is no reconciliation to him. A person has to be willing.

You're are trying to twist the teaching of Universal Reconciliation. Universal Reconciliation never says that unrepentant sinners will have access into heaven. Hitler is not in heaven, now. (I don't believe anyone is as of yet in heaven, but I can't speak for the rest of UR believers.)

 

[Gendou Ikari]

So then, is living that kind of unrepentant life being reconciled to Christ? I would think not. Those people who call themselves Christians, but act differently. Is that walking IN Christ? No, because without repentance, there is no reconciliation to him. A person has to be willing.

You're are trying to twist the teaching of Universal Reconciliation. Universal Reconciliation never says that unrepentant sinners will have access into heaven upon death. They must repent first. Hitler is not in heaven, now. (I don't believe anyone is as of yet in heaven, but I can't speak for the rest of UR believers.)

 

[Relic]

So then, is living that kind of unrepentant life being reconciled to Christ? I would think not. Those people who call themselves Christians, but act differently. Is that walking IN Christ? No, because without repentance, there is no reconciliation to him. A person has to be willing.

You're are trying to twist the teaching of Universal Reconciliation. Universal Reconciliation never says that unrepentant sinners will have access into heaven. Hitler is not in heaven, now. (I don't believe anyone is as of yet in heaven, but I can't speak for the rest of UR believers.)

So do you think just because someone uses the words such as "reconcile" or "reconciliation", or talks about the unrepentant sinner, or mentions that Some people believe Hitler is in heaven, that they are referring exclusively to the people who are of the UR belief? :o

I said "SOME PEOPLE"... in my original post. IF you don't agree , then why are you thinking I was pointing to your beliefs? Are you considering yourself amongst "THOSE PEOPLE"?

Like I said in other posts to you within the forums here, Gendou, you read into things where there is no need to do so. :-?


And I am not trying to twist anyones teachings. IF anyone twists teachings, then they are doing a good enough job on their own. And I am only stating what "others" and "some" people believe, not what everyone believes. I refuse to contribute to twisted teachings that are of the beliefs of "those people" I mentioned above, like I said, they are doing a good enough job on their own.

Lord have mercy...
You have just displayed a perfect example of jumping the gun

:P

I didn't say anything about Universal Reconciliationist beliefs. :-? And I must inform you of this fact... Not all UR's agree with each other on everything. :roll: .

It doesn't mean I am referring to the UR's exclusively in any of my postings here, or even including them in, when I use the term "SOME PEOPLE" or "THOSE PEOPLE" .
sheesh! Don't be so quick on the draw. :-?
Get off your high horse.

and think about what is actually being said before you draw conclusions in your responses.

Just a friendly reminder, Gendou. :-D




.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

All right, maybe I jumped the gun. For that I apologize.

Now, Colossians 1:16-20 is so easy to understand. I figured out that the blind cannot see. I know that I am blind to some Scriptural truths. Sometimes I have a teacher point out something to me and I cannot comprehend it. Like the relationship of God the Father to Jesus Christ. I can't fully comprehend it. It's a mystery to me.

 

[Heidi]

Colossians 1:16-20 (King James Version) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1. What does this passage mean to you?


Also,

2. Do you think this means that ALL will "eventually" be reconciled and then be able to enter into heaven?

3. What of those who refuse to accept the fact that Jesus gave his life on the cross for the remission of sins?
4. Are they "all" eventually going to accept Jesus, even in the afterlife, when and if, they are awakened from their sleep in the grave?
5. Will they be wiped off from the face of existence?
6. Will they be purged through fire and then be able to enter into heaven?
7. Once they are in heaven, will they be able to still fall from the grace of God and follow after the likes of Lucifer?
8. (Remember) Lucifer was once in heaven! Is he going to be reconciled?
9. What happens to Him in the final analysis?
10. Is he still going to be evil for ever and ever, without end?
11. If so where is his place?
12. Will individuals still be subject to his temptings and will some still be able to fall for his deceptions?
13. Where is their place in the end of it all?


Yes, or no and give explanation, please.

The bible gives clear answers.

14. What are your findings?

15. Can you provide scritpures that show what happens to those who do not accept the blood of Christ as their redemption from sins of the world?

16. Can you provide scirptures that show what happens to those who are followers of Satan?

17. Do you think the followers of Satan/Lucifer are going to have a second chance sometime in existence to be reconciled,
18. If so, please show me the scripture that says so?




There is so much debate about these things on this board,
I just want to clarify and see what you all come up with.



[edited by relic] to add more questions
.

Again, you can't just take one passage out of scripture. In order to understand any passage in the bible, you need to put it together with all scripture because the bible doesn't lie. And there are 30+ passages where jesus tells us that not only will those who don't believe him go to hell where the fire never goes out, but Revelations tells us that as well. So no. Not only will not all be reconciled, but Jesus tells us that few will go to heaven.

But hell is indeed fair and just because there are so many people in the world so eager to prove Jesus a lie and reject heaven. They are perfectly willing to risk hell for the belief that they know better than Christ what the truth is. Therefore, God will give everyone exactly what he wishes.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Again, you can't just take one passage out of scripture. In order to understand any passage in the bible, you need to put it together with all scripture because the bible doesn't lie. And there are 30+ passages where jesus tells us that not only will those who don't believe him go to hell where the fire never goes out, but Revelations tells us that as well. So no. Not only will not all be reconciled, but Jesus tells us that few will go to heaven.

But hell is indeed fair and just because there are so many people in the world so eager to prove Jesus a lie and reject heaven. They are perfectly willing to risk hell for the belief that they know better than Christ what the truth is. Therefore, God will give everyone exactly what he wishes.

I can't restate everything I've said about Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo, Aion, Aionion, Aionios. And I am not taking one passage out of the entire Scriptures. How about this Scripture:

1 Timothy 2:4 (King James Version) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And what happens with God's will?

Matthew 6:10 (King James Version) Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Romans 14:11 (King James Version) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10-11 (King James Version) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (King James Version) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 3:9 (King James Version) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Isaiah 46:10 (King James Version) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 26:9 (King James Version) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

I think that is enough Scripture. Enjoy


:-D

 

[Heidi]

Again, you can't just take one passage out of scripture. In order to understand any passage in the bible, you need to put it together with all scripture because the bible doesn't lie. And there are 30+ passages where jesus tells us that not only will those who don't believe him go to hell where the fire never goes out, but Revelations tells us that as well. So no. Not only will not all be reconciled, but Jesus tells us that few will go to heaven.

But hell is indeed fair and just because there are so many people in the world so eager to prove Jesus a lie and reject heaven. They are perfectly willing to risk hell for the belief that they know better than Christ what the truth is. Therefore, God will give everyone exactly what he wishes.

I can't restate everything I've said about Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroo, Aion, Aionion, Aionios. And I am not taking one passage out of the entire Scriptures. How about this Scripture:

1 Timothy 2:4 (King James Version) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And what happens with God's will?

Matthew 6:10 (King James Version) Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Romans 14:11 (King James Version) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10-11 (King James Version) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (King James Version) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 3:9 (King James Version) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Isaiah 46:10 (King James Version) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 26:9 (King James Version) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

I think that is enough Scripture. Enjoy


:-D

Again, you have to take the above scriptures together with the 30+ passages where Jesus tells us that not all will go to heaven. Jesus doesn't lie and if you're a Christian you should know that.

Therefore, when taking all of scripture together, the above verses mean that God wants all to have a chance to be saved. God wants all to be saved just as much as I want my children to be saved. But none of us can be saved unless we admit we need a savior and ask for forgiveness. And if you don't believe that, then read Christ's words...that is, if you believe him.

 

[Rick W]

If all are saved by universal salvation then nobody goes to Hell. If they do it won't be forever anyway. Christ judges some to Hell, gives amnesty and those who opposed Him learn their lesson or somehow are made to love Him forever and ever.
Gotcha!

:roll:

I may as well do as I please no matter how malicious it may be, eat, drink and be merry. There's no need to repent of anything because I'm going to be saved anyway whether I want to be saved or not.

 

[Rick W]

Here's how this goes.
No need to repent, I'm saved anyway. No need for faith, no use for grace, no need to preach the gospel, no need to hear of Christ, God, no need for scripture since all will be saved regardless if the Word of God exists or not. In short, universal salvation nullifies every concept, every doctrine taught through the Word of God since there's no need for anything to be saved. There's no morality worth adhering to, there's no right or wrong so do as one pleases because in the end it just doesn't matter.
And if there is something, anything that I can do that means I won't be saved then that very fact means all will not be saved and universal salvation collapses.
Universal salvation makes a mockery of God, the Son and the Holy Ghost for through the works done, the miracles performed, the grace of God given the message to man is that no matter what you do, no matter what you believe, no matter how strongly you oppose Christ and what He taught you're going to be saved despite yourself. Sin is of little consequence so burn your bible, burn your neighbor, shoot his dog and rape his wife you're going to be saved. You may be in Hell for a while but compared to eternity no biggie. For there can be no time measured that can hold any significance toward forever.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Again, you have to take the above scriptures together with the 30+ passages where Jesus tells us that not all will go to heaven. Jesus doesn't lie and if you're a Christian you should know that.

Therefore, when taking all of scripture together, the above verses mean that God wants all to have a chance to be saved. God wants all to be saved just as much as I want my children to be saved. But none of us can be saved unless we admit we need a savior and ask for forgiveness. And if you don't believe that, then read Christ's words...that is, if you believe him.

I can't explain it anymore because you just won't understand. Give me one Scripture that says that any Human being will be eternally separated from God?

If all are saved by universal salvation then nobody goes to Hell. If they do it won't be forever anyway. Christ judges some to Hell, gives amnesty and those who opposed Him learn their lesson or somehow are made to love Him forever and ever.
Gotcha!

I may as well do as I please no matter how malicious it may be, eat, drink and be merry. There's no need to repent of anything because I'm going to be saved anyway whether I want to be saved or not.

Oh, so I could kill, murder, and rape for about twenty years of my life, maybe until I am forty years of age and then repent. I'm sure you'd have no problem with Saddam repenting while on earth but somehow after death you call foul.

Here's how this goes.
No need to repent, I'm saved anyway. No need for faith, no use for grace, no need to preach the gospel, no need to hear of Christ, God, no need for scripture since all will be saved regardless if the Word of God exists or not. In short, universal salvation nullifies every concept, every doctrine taught through the Word of God since there's no need for anything to be saved. There's no morality worth adhering to, there's no right or wrong so do as one pleases because in the end it just doesn't matter.

I really fail to see how you even make one intelligent point here. I take it that you are trying to say, "unless we are threatened with Eternal Damnation nothing matters." My previous statement, above, applies here.

And if there is something, anything that I can do that means I won't be saved then that very fact means all will not be saved and universal salvation collapses.

But there isn't. If Paul, the greatest sinner of all time, was ready to do the will of God in only a matter of seconds, on the road to Damascus, how long do you think it would take for Saddam to be ready to obey God's will?

Universal salvation makes a mockery of God, the Son and the Holy Ghost for through the works done, the miracles performed, the grace of God given the message to man is that no matter what you do, no matter what you believe, no matter how strongly you oppose Christ and what He taught you're going to be saved despite yourself. Sin is of little consequence so burn your bible, burn your neighbor, shoot his dog and rape his wife you're going to be saved. You may be in Hell for a while but compared to eternity no biggie. For there can be no time measured that can hold any significance toward forever.

I used to think this way. But in truth the opposite is true... for me anyway. When I used to believe in Hell, I knew that I didn't love God. I just served him out of a servile fear. Now, I know that God never intended to burn most of humanity for all eternity, I really love God. Here is Christian Fundamentalism in a nutshell.

Terrifying mixed of message: a) God is love; and b) If you don't believe how much he loves you, you will be damned to hell for all eternity -- Adaption of James Lileks' quote

Again I say, "Oh, so I could kill, murder, and rape for about twenty years of my life, maybe until I am forty years of age and then repent. I'm sure you'd have no problem with Saddam repenting while on earth but somehow after death you call foul."

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What Christians believe that you shall surely die. Not any I know! They believe you can't die because every human has an Immortal Soul.

 

[Heidi]

Again, you have to take the above scriptures together with the 30+ passages where Jesus tells us that not all will go to heaven. Jesus doesn't lie and if you're a Christian you should know that.

Therefore, when taking all of scripture together, the above verses mean that God wants all to have a chance to be saved. God wants all to be saved just as much as I want my children to be saved. But none of us can be saved unless we admit we need a savior and ask for forgiveness. And if you don't believe that, then read Christ's words...that is, if you believe him.

I can't explain it anymore because you just won't understand. Give me one Scripture that says that any Human being will be eternally separated from God?

[quote:4d3e4]If all are saved by universal salvation then nobody goes to Hell. If they do it won't be forever anyway. Christ judges some to Hell, gives amnesty and those who opposed Him learn their lesson or somehow are made to love Him forever and ever.
Gotcha!

I may as well do as I please no matter how malicious it may be, eat, drink and be merry. There's no need to repent of anything because I'm going to be saved anyway whether I want to be saved or not.

Oh, so I could kill, murder, and rape for about twenty years of my life, maybe until I am forty years of age and then repent. I'm sure you'd have no problem with Saddam repenting while on earth but somehow after death you call foul.

Here's how this goes.
No need to repent, I'm saved anyway. No need for faith, no use for grace, no need to preach the gospel, no need to hear of Christ, God, no need for scripture since all will be saved regardless if the Word of God exists or not. In short, universal salvation nullifies every concept, every doctrine taught through the Word of God since there's no need for anything to be saved. There's no morality worth adhering to, there's no right or wrong so do as one pleases because in the end it just doesn't matter.

I really fail to see how you even make one intelligent point here. I take it that you are trying to say, "unless we are threatened with Eternal Damnation nothing matters." My previous statement, above, applies here.

And if there is something, anything that I can do that means I won't be saved then that very fact means all will not be saved and universal salvation collapses.

But there isn't. If Paul, the greatest sinner of all time, was ready to do the will of God in only a matter of seconds, on the road to Damascus, how long do you think it would take for Saddam to be ready to obey God's will?

Universal salvation makes a mockery of God, the Son and the Holy Ghost for through the works done, the miracles performed, the grace of God given the message to man is that no matter what you do, no matter what you believe, no matter how strongly you oppose Christ and what He taught you're going to be saved despite yourself. Sin is of little consequence so burn your bible, burn your neighbor, shoot his dog and rape his wife you're going to be saved. You may be in Hell for a while but compared to eternity no biggie. For there can be no time measured that can hold any significance toward forever.

I used to think this way. But in truth the opposite is true... for me anyway. When I used to believe in Hell, I knew that I didn't love God. I just served him out of a servile fear. Now, I know that God never intended to burn most of humanity for all eternity, I really love God. Here is Christian Fundamentalism in a nutshell.

Terrifying mixed of message: a) God is love; and b) If you don't believe how much he loves you, you will be damned to hell for all eternity -- Adaption of James Lileks' quote

Again I say, "Oh, so I could kill, murder, and rape for about twenty years of my life, maybe until I am forty years of age and then repent. I'm sure you'd have no problem with Saddam repenting while on earth but somehow after death you call foul."

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What Christians believe that you shall surely die. Not any I know! They believe you can't die because every human has an Immortal Soul.[/quote:4d3e4]

Not so. If we don't receive God's redemption for our sin, then we cannot have eternal life. God is a just God. Only humans think they can do whatever they want and still enter heaven. That is an entitlement mentality and very selfish.

So you think Saddam Hussein should get the same fate as Mother Theresa. Is that correct? If so, why? Please read Ecclesiastes to see how unjust that is.

But more importantly it's not scriptural. It contradcits 30+ passages of Christ and Revelations. So it doesn't matter what you think, it matters what God thinks because heaven is his creation, not ours.

 

[Disciple88]

Everyone who is a believer and reads the word(which the should study it and divide it diligently) should be consitant with the word. Since John 8:24 says that if we do not believe that He is the Christ, we will die(spiritually or eternally, not physically). So, with this said, let it be known the bible does not contradict itself, so i will share from this commentary, hope it helps.

The Gr. word for "reconcile" means "to change" or "exchange". Its NT usage refers to a change in the sinner's relationship to God. Man is reconciled to God when God restores man to a right relationship with Him through Jesus Christ. An intensified form for "reconcile" is used in this verse to refer to the total and complete reconciliation of believers and utimately "all things" in the created universe(Rom. 8:21; 2peter 3:10-13; Rev. 21:1). This text does not teach that, as a result, all will believe; rather it teaches that all will ultimatley submit(Phil. 2:9-11).

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Gendou Ikari]

So it doesn't matter what you think, it matters what God thinks

Of course it doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what God's Word says. I have stated this time after time. But does God's word really teach Eternal Damnation. I say no! The words Sheol and Hades do not mean the English word Hell. Gehenna is a proper name and the translators of the King James Version twisted the Word of God by translating it Hell. Tartaroo is never said to be eternal so why should I even bother trying to do away with this one.

 

[Relic]

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Gendou,

Regarding these scriptures which you provide in your previous post.... you will see how you are misinterpreting them or are using them in un-relation to the topic at hand.

1 Timothy 2:4 (King James Version) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Regarding the word will. You can't take it out of context to the way in which the word is being emphasized. Just because the word will is used in a phrase does not mean it is referring to "accepted" Holy will of God. The will here is indicitive of it being a desire to be accepted/received by the individuals it is being offered to. The scripture doesn't imply at all that it is going to be accepted by the person who does not want to take heed the will of God.

This passage indicates that the word will meant That God wants that all men be saved. Not that God will make all make all men be saved. We are not robots! Yes,
God desires for us to all to be saved, but that doesn't mean that all men will take heed to the "will" of God.

Where do you get the notion that all men are eventually going to come to Christ? All the gospel will be preached to ALL men, but not ALL men will accept it. And not all men will take heed to the will of God. And scripture is full of proof that those who are followers of Satan will be outside of the gates of heaven. Revelation 21:8 Revelation 22:15


From Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament:
Verse 4
who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Who would have all men to be saved ...
It is the will of God that all men should inherit eternal life; but it is also the will of God that people should do so through acceptance of Jesus Christ, and persons refusing to do that must forfeit the inheritance.
Another factor that enters into the consideration is the will of man, God having granted to all people the freedom of their will; and, where man's will is unresponsive and rebellious against God's will, there can be no salvation. God DESIRES the salvation of all, but the RESPONSIBILITY for accepting that salvation rests squarely upon every man. As Nute said, "This verse must not be stressed to support a numerical universalism."
source: http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=2&verse=4#1Ti2_4

And what happens with God's will?

Matthew 6:10 (King James Version) Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

The above scripture is a prayer for God's will to come to manifestation here on earth as it is in heaven, That is a prayer. A prayer is a supplication unto the Lord God FROM the heart of a person who has already accepted God's Holy will to be a part of his life.

You can't use this scripture out of context to the whole of the truth what this is... it is a supplication, a request from an already saved soul. It is not the prayer of a person who has refused to accept the will of God into their own life.

1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

The scripture above is about those who believe. It isn't about those who don't believe.


Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament
Verse 10
For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

Of the living God ...
The Christian hope contrasted starkly with the hope of the pagan world which was set upon dead idols.

Who is the Saviour of all men ...
"This is not universalism. The key is in the words, `specially of them that believe.'" It is a fact, of course, that God is able and willing to save all men, and that all who are ever saved will be saved by him; and it is in this sense that "he is the Saviour of all men." As Lenski said, "We know why so many are not saved (Matthew 23:37)."
Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. source: http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=4&verse=10#1Ti4_10

Romans 14:11 (King James Version) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:10-11 (King James Version) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess to God. But no where does it imply that anyone will escape the judgement.

And where in the bible does it say there is going to face more than one judgment after a person is dead out of their earthly body? I only read of one judgment. And that is it.

1 Corinthians 12:3 (King James Version) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

This scripture states that the Holy Ghost is what ables a man to speak by the Spirit of God. And that if anyone curses or blasphemies God that it clear they don't have the Holy Spirit working through them.

What does this scripture have to do with the judgement or whether Satan will be reconciled and enter into heaven?

2 Peter 3:9 (King James Version) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It has already been explained about the word will, in that, not all are going to accept the holy [will] of God.
Now the word should is to be understood as that being a word in which hinges on the fact that IF someone doesn't accept Christ, they will perish. Hence, the scriptures that tell of those who perish and why they perish. It's because they didn't do what they should have, and that is to have accepted the will of God the Father.


Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament

excerpt:
... Nevertheless, some people will exercise their free will to exclude God from their lives; and this God cannot prevent without taking away from people the very freedom of choice that makes them people.
source:http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=2pe&chapter=3&verse=9#2Pe3_9

Isaiah 46:10 (King James Version) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 26:9 (King James Version) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Yes, God is in control of all things, but does it mean he refuses to let a person choose with their own will? The will we choose to live by is still accountable to the laws that govern all acts of behavior. We are all held accountable to God. And that proves He is indeed in control of the Laws that govern all of the universe.

What do these last two scriptures have to do with whether Satan and his followers will be reconciled and enter into heaven once the dead are raised from the grave to face the judgment of the Lord God?

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