Bible Study Colossians 1:16-20 Question

[Gendou Ikari]

And this is where are debate comes to a timely end. I do not believe in Free-Will. I have no wish to bring this discussion into an argument of whether or not we have Free-Will. As long as you believe in Free-Will you cannot see how I see Universal Salvation in the Scriptures.

You put Salvation in the Free-Will of Man, while I believe that we cannot, one iota of our own will choose to accept Christ.

John 6:44 (King James Version) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The scripture above is about those who believe. It isn't about those who don't believe.


Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament
Verse 10
For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

Of the living God ...
The Christian hope contrasted starkly with the hope of the pagan world which was set upon dead idols.

Who is the Saviour of all men ...
"This is not universalism. The key is in the words, `specially of them that believe.'" It is a fact, of course, that God is able and willing to save all men, and that all who are ever saved will be saved by him; and it is in this sense that "he is the Saviour of all men." As Lenski said, "We know why so many are not saved (Matthew 23:37)."
Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. source: http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view. ... 10#1Ti4_10

You are twisting this verse. That guy you quoted from is an idiot. It doesn't say that Jesus Christ is the potential saviour. He's making up words. The word is specially not exclusively. The believers will be in the First Resurrection, that is why they are special. Jesus Christ is Saviour of All Men but Especially of those who believe. He is still the Saviour of the Unbelievers just not specially. He still saves them.

Please forgive me for not addressing the other verses. I don't have the time :-D

 

[Heidi]

So it doesn't matter what you think, it matters what God thinks

Of course it doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what God's Word says. I have stated this time after time. But does God's word really teach Eternal Damnation. I say no! The words Sheol and Hades do not mean the English word Hell. Gehenna is a proper name and the translators of the King James Version twisted the Word of God by translating it Hell. Tartaroo is never said to be eternal so why should I even bother trying to do away with this one.

Again there are over 30 passages of Christ's words alone that teach eternal hell where, as Jesus says; "The fire never goes out". But I notice that you've skipped those parts. ;-)

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Again there are over 30 passages of Christ's words alone that teach eternal hell where, as Jesus says; "The fire never goes out". But I notice that you've skipped those parts.

What parts did I skip. First of all Gehenna is not Hell. Gehenna is a proper noun and was a garbage dump in Jerusalem, used to burn up refuse. I believe Jesus Christ used Gehenna as a metaphor for the Lake of Fire.

Second, in Matthew 18:8 Gehenna is described as "Fire Eonian." And "The fire never goes out" should be translated "the fire the unextinguished."

 

[Heidi]

Again there are over 30 passages of Christ's words alone that teach eternal hell where, as Jesus says; "The fire never goes out". But I notice that you've skipped those parts.

What parts did I skip. First of all Gehenna is not Hell. Gehenna is a proper noun and was a garbage dump in Jerusalem, used to burn up refuse. I believe Jesus Christ used Gehenna as a metaphor for the Lake of Fire.

Second, in Matthew 18:8 Gehenna is described as "Fire Eonian." And "The fire never goes out" should be translated "the fire the unextinguished."

Matthew 5: 29-30
Matthew 7:13
matthew 8:12
Matthew 10:33
Matthew 10:39
Matthew 11:24
Matthew 12:37
Matthew 13:11-13
Matthew 13:30
Matthew 13:40-43
Matthew 13:49-50
Matthew 16:26
Matthew 18:8
Matthew 21:43
Matthew 21:13-14
Matthew 24:50-51
Matthew 21:30
Matthew 25:31-46

This is just in Matthew where Jesus talks about hell, and I'm sure I've missed some. I haven't even gotten to Mark, Luke or John yet. But even if you contradict just one passage of scripture, your interpretation is a false one because the bible doesn't lie. I also want to add that Jesus uses the words "fiery furnace" and "darkness" to describe hell also.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Matthew 5: 29-30
Matthew 7:13
matthew 8:12
Matthew 10:33
Matthew 10:39
Matthew 11:24
Matthew 12:37
Matthew 13:11-13
Matthew 13:30
Matthew 13:40-43
Matthew 13:49-50
Matthew 16:26
Matthew 18:8
Matthew 21:43
Matthew 21:13-14
Matthew 24:50-51
Matthew 21:30
Matthew 25:31-46

This is just in Matthew where Jesus talks about hell, and I'm sure I've missed some. I haven't even gotten to Mark, Luke or John yet. But even if you contradict just one passage of scripture, your interpretation is a false one because the bible doesn't lie. I also want to add that Jesus uses the words "fiery furnace" and "darkness" to describe hell also.

None of those Scriptures used the word Hell in them, except maybe one. I don't even care if the translator did translate a Greek word into Hell. You're not even listening to what I am saying.

Do you take what Jesus says about in all these Scriptures as literal? If you do, then I am not sure what hell is. A fiery furnace or darkness? Both are opposites. Maybe Hell is just a contradiction. :smt081

 

[Rick W]

I can't explain it anymore because you just won't understand. Give me one Scripture that says that any Human being will be eternally separated from God?

KJV
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Demons know God.

 

[Heidi]

Matthew 5: 29-30
Matthew 7:13
matthew 8:12
Matthew 10:33
Matthew 10:39
Matthew 11:24
Matthew 12:37
Matthew 13:11-13
Matthew 13:30
Matthew 13:40-43
Matthew 13:49-50
Matthew 16:26
Matthew 18:8
Matthew 21:43
Matthew 21:13-14
Matthew 24:50-51
Matthew 21:30
Matthew 25:31-46

This is just in Matthew where Jesus talks about hell, and I'm sure I've missed some. I haven't even gotten to Mark, Luke or John yet. But even if you contradict just one passage of scripture, your interpretation is a false one because the bible doesn't lie. I also want to add that Jesus uses the words "fiery furnace" and "darkness" to describe hell also.

None of those Scriptures used the word Hell in them, except maybe one. I don't even care if the translator did translate a Greek word into Hell. You're not even listening to what I am saying.

Do you take what Jesus says about in all these Scriptures as literal? If you do, then I am not sure what hell is. A fiery furnace or darkness? Both are opposites. Maybe Hell is just a contradiction. :smt081

No, it is you who isn't listening to what I or Jesus is saying. First of all, it isn't true that none of those scriptures mentions hell. So you are not being honest here.

Secondly, Jesus also talks about eternal darkness and destruction. Do you not know what those mean? :o Do you know what he means when he said that if you disown me among men, then I will disown you before my Father?

Do you know what Jesus means when he said; "For many are invited but few are chosen"?

A fiery furnace means exactly what it says. So just look up in the dictionary to see what those words mean. Revelations chapters 2O and 21 also elaborate on that. Jesus also describes an eternal fire that is "not quenched."

So regardless if one believes it's a literal fire or a figurative fire, the result will be the same; eternal agony and separation from God which is darkness.

You cannot refute something you don't understand. So I suggest you scrutinze those passages with an open mind and not only read what "itching ears want to hear."

 

[Heidi]

Actually, Ikari, that's a good question. Put darkness together with eternal fire and you have an eternal darkness that feels like an agonizing fire. That makes both statements true because Jesus doesn't lie.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

KJV
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The word translated as, "everlasting" is the Greek word, "Aiwnion." Aiwnion is the adjective of, "aiwn" which undeniably cannot mean eternal or any infinite duration. If aiwn means, "eon" and aiwnion is the adjective. An adjective can never carry more force than the noun. Hourly means, "of hours" more or less. Maybe I should say, "pertaining to hours." Aiwnion, being an adjective, also means, "of Eon" or, "something pertaining to the eon(s)"

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (Concordant Literal New Testament) in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ -- who shall incur the justice of eonian[Aiwnion] extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength --

 

[TruthMiner]

Colossians 1:16-20 (King James Version) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1. What does this passage mean to you?


Also,

2. Do you think this means that ALL will "eventually" be reconciled and then be able to enter into heaven?

Yes, that is what it says. It is talking about creation in context.

3. What of those who refuse to accept the fact that Jesus gave his life on the cross for the remission of sins?

Such an identity will not exist in heaven.

4. Are they "all" eventually going to accept Jesus, even in the afterlife, when and if, they are awakened from their sleep in the grave?

No.

5. Will they be wiped off from the face of existence?

Yes/No.

Depends what you are asking.

Identity-wise, No.
Materially-wise, Yes.

6. Will they be purged through fire and then be able to enter into heaven?

Sorta. There will no longer be a "they."

7. Once they are in heaven, will they be able to still fall from the grace of God and follow after the likes of Lucifer?

No.

8. (Remember) Lucifer was once in heaven! Is he going to be reconciled?

No.

9. What happens to Him in the final analysis?

This identity will no longer exist.

10. Is he still going to be evil for ever and ever, without end?

No.

11. If so where is his place?

N/A

12. Will individuals still be subject to his temptings and will some still be able to fall for his deceptions?

No.

13. Where is their place in the end of it all?

Non-existence.

 

[Heidi]

KJV
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The word translated as, "everlasting" is the Greek word, "Aiwnion." Aiwnion is the adjective of, "aiwn" which undeniably cannot mean eternal or any infinite duration. If aiwn means, "eon" and aiwnion is the adjective. An adjective can never carry more force than the noun. Hourly means, "of hours" more or less. Maybe I should say, "pertaining to hours." Aiwnion, being an adjective, also means, "of Eon" or, "something pertaining to the eon(s)"

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (Concordant Literal New Testament) in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ -- who shall incur the justice of eonian[Aiwnion] extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength --

Sorry but you are doing what Bill Clinton did when trying to redefine the word "is" when he was caught in a lie. The word "eternal" is used for both heaven and hell in the bible. So what you're saying is that eternal doesn't mean eternal when it comes to hell but it does mean eternal when it comes to heaven. You can't have it both ways, Ikari, because the bible uses the same word for both.

I also have a question for you; If God wanted to tell us that hell was eternal and everlasting, what words do you think the authors should use to tell us that? :o

 

[Rick W]

Sorry but you are doing what Bill Clinton did when trying to redefine the word "is" when he was caught in a lie. The word "eternal" is used for both heaven and hell in the bible. So what you're saying is that eternal doesn't mean eternal when it comes to hell but it does mean eternal when it comes to heaven. You can't have it both ways, Ikari, because the bible uses the same word for both.

I also have a question for you; If God wanted to tell us that hell was eternal and everlasting, what words do you think the authors should use to tell us that? :o

:smt023

Give me one Scripture that says that any Human being will be eternally separated from God?

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Clearly the word means eternal.

From two interlinears Greek to English.

Do you have any idea how many times "everlasting", the same word G166, is used in the NT alone? Here is only 5 verses.
Your proposed interpretation would make a lie of a lot of scripture.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Rick W]

You can't have it both ways, Ikari, because the bible uses the same word for both.

exactly.

Is eternal life only as long as the punishment of the wicked, or does the punishment of the wicked last as long as eternal life?

Using the same logic I can put a time limit on eternal life.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Aww... how quaint. You guys are really adorable the way you try. :angel:

Sorry but you are doing what Bill Clinton did when trying to redefine the word "is" when he was caught in a lie. The word "eternal" is used for both heaven and hell in the bible. So what you're saying is that eternal doesn't mean eternal when it comes to hell but it does mean eternal when it comes to heaven. You can't have it both ways, Ikari, because the bible uses the same word for both.

When have I ever claimed that the word Aiwnion means eternal when referred to Heaven. You're making assumptions.

I also have a question for you; If God wanted to tell us that hell was eternal and everlasting, what words do you think the authors should use to tell us that?

As far as I am aware there is no Koine Greek word which means "eternal" or even "Infinite." The ancients really had no concept of eternity. The Egyptians believed that the wicked will be in their version of Hell for millions of year, which is as close as they could get to eternity.

Gendou Ikari wrote:
Give me one Scripture that says that any Human being will be eternally separated from God?


2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Clearly the word means eternal.







From two interlinears Greek to English.







Do you have any idea how many times "everlasting", the same word G166, is used in the NT alone? Here is only 5 verses.
Your proposed interpretation would make a lie of a lot of scripture.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Aiwnion is used a little over forty times. You're evading the questions and only using these lexicon's words against me. I never denied that many scholars claim Aiwnion means eternal; most do. But I don't listen to modern day Pharisees.

exactly.

Is eternal life only as long as the punishment of the wicked, or does the punishment of the wicked last as long as eternal life?

Using the same logic I can put a time limit on eternal life.

Again, I never said that Aiwnion Life should be translated as, "eternal life." It is, "Eonian Life." You keep giving me strawman arguments, evading my questions and arguing against points I never stated.

 

[Rick W]

The word translated as, "everlasting" is the Greek word, "Aiwnion." Aiwnion is the adjective of, "aiwn" which undeniably cannot mean eternal or any infinite duration. If aiwn means, "eon" and aiwnion is the adjective. An adjective can never carry more force than the noun. Hourly means, "of hours" more or less. Maybe I should say, "pertaining to hours." Aiwnion, being an adjective, also means, "of Eon" or, "something pertaining to the eon(s)"

Not so.


2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The word aionios G166 is used in the opposite sense to the word proskairos, which means 'for a time, temporary'

Aionian here does not mean a time with a beginning or end but opposes the idea of temporary, "proskairos" or for a limited time. That contrast shows "aionios" as meaning eternal, not temporary. Paul clearly wants to convey the concept of opposites... temporary/eternal, not more temporary and less temporary.

2 Corinthians 4:18 does not read or give the message...
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporary; but the things which are not seen less temporary.

That doesn't make sense. Aionian can indeed mean eternal and does.
Paul was not a modern day Pharisee.
Yeah, I know. He was at one time an "ancient Pharisee". But he repented. :wink:

I can't explain it anymore because you just won't understand. Give me one Scripture that says that any Human being will be eternally separated from God?

KJV
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You got the verse you were asking for.

"everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord"
Doesn't get any plainer than that. Could be "eternal destruction", "destruction forever" or "destruction eternal" as seen in the Greek interlinears.
Not "tempoary destruction" or "destruction for an age" or "destruction for a while".



----------------------------

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What Christians believe that you shall surely die. Not any I know! They believe you can't die because every human has an Immortal Soul.

"everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord"

The second death.
Look at the word destruction.

A "prolonged form". Prolonged for how long? Not for a time but eternally.
How can something be "destroyed" but never anihilated?

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

How can something burn but never be consumed?

You zero in on the word "everlasting" and the anihilationist zeros in on the word "destruction". Universal Salvation "All are saved" and the anihilationist's "some are obliterated" conflict greatly using the same mental gymnastics to prove each point.
So if I'm not acedemic or scholarly enough to grasp what the text is really saying in either "eternal destruction" or "everlasting punishment" (Matt 25:46) then I don't have the knowledge of truth. And that sounds like Gnosticism to me. And on top of that I have to choose which mental gyrations suit me best.

:smt017

I'll admit. I'm just not smart enough to make an intelligent decision between the two. Thus, I'm compelled to remain ignorant and believe the Word of God as written. Everlasting = forever = without time = evermore = eternal.

How can something burn but never be consumed?
I don't know. I'm physical. I don't understand that. It makes my head hurt. So I'll trust in God that He knows what He's telling me, plainly.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

The word aionios G166 is used in the opposite sense to the word proskairos, which means 'for a time, temporary'

Aionian here does not mean a time with a beginning or end but opposes the idea of temporary, "proskairos" or for a limited time. That contrast shows "aionios" as meaning eternal, not temporary. Paul clearly wants to convey the concept of opposites... temporary/eternal, not more temporary and less temporary.

2 Corinthians 4:18 does not read or give the message...
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporary; but the things which are not seen less temporary.

That doesn't make sense. Aionian can indeed mean eternal and does.
Paul was not a modern day Pharisee.
Yeah, I know. He was at one time an "ancient Pharisee". But he repented.

I'll use a quote.

Answer: The Greek word translated "temporal" has no connection with the word for "time"; it is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means "temporary" or "for the era." In the passage in question, "eonian" is used in contrast between our afflictions, which last for a brief "season," and our promised, long enduring "eonian" glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation. -- William C. Rebmann

 

[Relic]

I'll use a quote.

Answer: The Greek word translated "temporal" has no connection with the word for "time"; it is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means "temporary" or "for the era." In the passage in question, "eonian" is used in contrast between our afflictions, which last for a brief "season," and our promised, long enduring "eonian" glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation. -- William C. Rebmann

The Greek word translated "temporal" has no connection with the word for "time";

Your quote is a perfect example of someone who didn't realize he was using a contradiction in terms.

If something is temporary, it is indeed relative to time. It in fact describes a time period.

So his quote does not make any sense of the word, it is a deception of the true meaning of the word.
How can a word that describes a time frame not have any connection with the word for "time" ? Doesn't make any sense at all. Think about it.




.

 

[Rick W]

I'll use a quote.

Answer: The Greek word translated "temporal" has no connection with the word for "time"; it is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means "temporary" or "for the era." In the passage in question, "eonian" is used in contrast between our afflictions, which last for a brief "season," and our promised, long enduring "eonian" glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation. -- William C. Rebmann

The Greek word translated "temporal" has no connection with the word for "time";

Your quote is a perfect example of someone who didn't realize whe was using a contradiction in terms.

If something is temporary, it is indeed relative to time. It in fact describes a time period.

So his quote does not make any sense of the word, it is a deception of the true meaning of the word.
How can a word that describes a time frame not have any connection with the word for "time" ? Doesn't make any sense at all. Think about it.

.

It's a tap dance. An attempt to get the focus off the use of "aionios" as eternal. While there is some truth in what he says (I'm not buying his view of temporal either) the issue of "aionios" used as eternal is not directly addressed. Instead he zeros in on "temporal". His diversionary focus is on the "waiting" period for that which is eternal, in his words, glorious consummation.



---------

Answer: The Greek word translated "temporal" has no connection with the word for "time"; it is literally TOWARD-SEASON, and means "temporary" or "for the era." In the passage in question, "eonian" is used in contrast between our afflictions, which last for a brief "season," and our promised, long enduring "eonian" glory, which lasts until all opens out into the glorious consummation. -- William C. Rebmann

William C. Rebmann .... another Universal Reconciliationist.

I agree our affliction is not permanent and we look forward to our "glorious consummation".

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

what things?
"things not seen"

And that "glorious consummation" is eternal. That is what we look toward, our hope, through faith.

2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, temporary worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

"For the things"
what things?
"things being seen"
are what?
"temporal"

"but the things"
what things?
"things not being seen"
are what?
"eternal"


There's no getting around the fact that "aionios" is used as eternal.

"but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Instead of using my own words I used someone elses. I probably shouldn't have done that.

I fail how to see why Aiwnios must mean eternal here. A better translation of proskairos would be, "for a short duration" or "for a season." That is how it is translated in a few other Scriptures in the King James Version.

Let us try that translation.

2 Corinthians 4:18 (My Revision) While we look not at the things, which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are short in duration; but things which are not seen are age-lasting.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I just wanted to add these two verses for you to ponder. The word used here is Aiwniwn. Albeit, it not the same exact form as Aiwnion, Dr. Stong seems to think it is close enough to mark it under the same Strong number[Greek 166.]

2 Timothy 1:9 (King James Version) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began[kronwn aiwniwn]

Titus 1:2 (King James Version) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;[kronwn aiwniwn]

On with the fun. :smt040