Bible Study Colossians 1:16-20 Question

[Rick W]

age-lasting?
Come on now. That's just plain mental acrobatics and you know it. My faith, my hope is not in something that's "age-lasting", but forever, without end. Heb 11:1 You are struggling, trying very hard to make eternal not eternal and it's not happening. You must make it a duration of time, not forever, or your argument of Universal Reconciliation falls apart.
Three verses, 2 Corinthians 4:18 and 2 thessalonians 1:8-9 stand in your way. For you those vesuses cannot mean what they say. They must mean something different above all else.
You're trying to mold scripture to fit your belief, not molding your belief to fit scripture. Thus the attempt of manipulation with words.

I'm not convinced and I don't think you are either though you may say so.

think about it

 

[Rick W]

I just wanted to add these two verses for you to ponder. The word used here is Aiwniwn. Albeit, it not the same exact form as Aiwnion, Dr. Stong seems to think it is close enough to mark it under the same Strong number[Greek 166.]

2 Timothy 1:9 (King James Version) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began[kronwn aiwniwn]

Titus 1:2 (King James Version) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;[kronwn aiwniwn]

On with the fun. :smt040

I'll hold my ground with 2 Corinthians 4:18 and 2 thessalonians 1:8-9. I'll not be steered away from those verses onto another tangent, another debate on other scripture. I've witnessed in Salt Lake City and I know the ploy very well. :wink:

 

[Gendou Ikari]

age-lasting?
Come on now. That's just plain mental acrobatics and you know it. My faith, my hope is not in something that's "age-lasting", but forever, without end. Heb 11:1 You are struggling, trying very hard to make eternal not eternal and it's not happening. You must make it a duration of time, not forever, or your argument of Universal Reconciliation falls apart.
Three verses, 2 Corinthians 4:18 and 2 thessalonians 1:8-9 stand in your way. For you those vesuses cannot mean what they say. They must mean something different above all else.
You're trying to mold scripture to fit your belief, not molding your belief to fit scripture. Thus the attempt of manipulation with words.

I'm not convinced and I don't think you are either though you may say so.

think about it

I would have traslated it as, "Eonian" but I thought that Age-last would get my point across better. See what you said, My faith and My hope is in something forever. You refuse to accept that it can mean Eonian, even if God says so. I am not manupulating these verses. I take a look at the facts and draw a conclusion. Why don't you point out what I said wrong, instead of just saying that I am twisting the Scriptures?

I'll hold my ground with 2 Corinthians 4:18 and 2 thessalonians 1:8-9. I'll not be steered away from those verses onto another tangent, another debate on other scripture. I've witnessed in Salt Lake City and I know the ploy very well.

It's not a ploy. In order for me to win this debate I must bring all Scriptures concering Aiwnios into harmony. That is why I brought these Scriptures in. Just tell me is this verse grammatically wrong?

2 Corinthians 4:18 (My Revision) While we look not at the things, which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are short in duration; but things which are not seen are age-lasting.

 

[Rick W]

Give me one Scripture that says that any Human being will be eternally separated from God?

Your request has been answered. And scripture has shown that aionios can mean eternal. Whether you accept it or not has nothing to do with me but with you.
If you want to believe all will have a second chance after death of the flesh that's up to you. But I'm not willing to bet my salvation on the chance that it may be so. Or someone else's for that matter. For if scripture as written is correct then I'm ok. If there is a second chance I'm still ok. But someone else's salvation based on a second chance? I'll not count on it at all and teach that eternal means eternal.

 

[gingercat]

Some people think Hitler and other mass murderers are in heaven because of Christ dying on the cross for them, thereby, redeeming them. But the fact is that there are counterfeits who claim they are Christians, but really they are just liars and are not really Christian-like in any of their actions or beliefs. They are not OF Christ at all! , but are of those spoken of in Revelation 21:8 and Revelation 22:15

The question is....
Will Satan and his followers "eventually", someplace in time, even after the battle of armageddon, at any time, in the future be reconciled in Christ and thereby have a place opened up to them in heaven?

Can Satan ever get back into heaven? :o

I would think, the answer is no,and any one who follows after Satan cannot either... How can they? :-?

PotLuck,
Yes, Thank you, I believe the words of Jesus say it clearly enough:[/color]

• John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To believe in something is to also have confidence that what is being believed in is being acted out in ones own life, to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith. Hence the term; saving faith.

When a person is OF Christ, they are not just a bump on the log, having no integrity or accountability in their life. Christianity is pro-active, it is not de-active-ated as you are living your life.
Some people just don't see they are living a lie if they are not live IN Christ-like Holy Spirit, working "through" their own lives. :roll:
You can't be a Christian without it having an effect on you or others around you.
I'll tell you, I've had plenty of people who wanted to drag me into their sins, and I've lost their friendship because I said no to participating in it with them. People who are into being drunken, fornicators, whoremongers, into so called casual drug use, idolizing their own means of entertainment, pornography, acting as if certain types of music was irrelevant. etc. All kinds of dirty joke telling, swearing, unbecoming behaviors. People of all walks of life, not thinking anything of how they live their lives. Instead of being stewarts of Christ, living without committing to sin in their lives, they don't want to give it up, and they look upon you as being geeky or weird, or no fun, if you don't participate with them. Some of my so called friends just don't come around anymore because I quit drinking, I quit having casual sex, I quit casual drugs, I quit living recklessly, and I am stiving to live a cleaned up life. They acted like I was some freak and no more fun. well, maybe so to them but at least I am not harvesting that kind of life style any longer. It just about ruined me. Now my life is being renewed daily as I live without that recklessness in my life. :-? These days, seems that's what many people think for themselves as being fun and entertaining. Little do they think of the consequences of that kind of life style upon themselves and upon others around them. They live recklessly without concern for themselves or others around them. And they just don't want to let it go. Drinking and whoring around is more important than cleaning up their act. They refuse to face and slay the Goliath in thier life. Sad, so sad.

So then, is living that kind of unrepentant life being reconciled to Christ? I would think not. Those people who call themselves Christians, but act differently. Is that walking IN Christ? No, because without repentance, there is no reconciliation to him. A person has to be willing.

condemned means to put asunder, separate,
it has many other variations to the word relative the the scripture in which it is used.
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2919


Those who are of Satan are separate, put aside. They have their place outside of the gates of heaven, as it is stated in the very last chapter of the book of Revelation.

• Revelation 22:14-15
  14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This is wonderful testimony relic, thank you :D

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Your request has been answered. And scripture has shown that aionios can mean eternal. Whether you accept it or not has nothing to do with me but with you.

If you are speaking the truth, then destroy my argument. I already showed that in 2 Corinthians 4:18 it is possible for Aiwnia to mean "an amount of time less than eternity." That is backed up by how it is used in the rest of the Scriptures and the fact that it's root word, Aiwn, means, "Eon."

 

[Heidi]

Your request has been answered. And scripture has shown that aionios can mean eternal. Whether you accept it or not has nothing to do with me but with you.

If you are speaking the truth, then destroy my argument. I already showed that in 2 Corinthians 4:18 it is possible for Aiwnia to mean "an amount of time less than eternity." That is backed up by how it is used in the rest of the Scriptures and the fact that it's root word, Aiwn, means, "Eon."

So then when the bible talks about eternal life in heaven, do you think that's less time than eternity? :o Particulray when the word for eternal or everlasting is the same Greek word when the bible talks about heaven as it is when it talks babout hell. So why do you say heaven is eternal and hell is not when the same Greek word is used for both? You thus contradict yourself, my friend.

You also have not answered the question; If God wanted to tell us that hell is everlasting and eternal, then what words do you think the authors of the bible should use to convey that to us? :o

 

[Gendou Ikari]

So then when the bible talks about eternal life in heaven, do you think that's less time than eternity? Particulray when the word for eternal or everlasting is the same Greek word when the bible talks about heaven as it is when it talks babout hell. So why do you say heaven is eternal and hell is not when the same Greek word is used for both? You thus contradict yourself, my friend.

I just answered this on the last page. I never said that the Scriptures denote Heaven as Eternal. When did I say it? Give me a quote!

You also have not answered the question; If God wanted to tell us that hell is everlasting and eternal, then what words do you think the authors of the bible should use to convey that to us?

As far as I know there is no Koine Greek word denoting Eternity. The fact is that God didn't use any and He's not a sick god who wants to torture most of humanity.

 

[Rick W]

He's not a sick god who wants to torture most of humanity.

He's God. From everlasting to everlasting. God Eternal.
Because of sin death entered into the world. Because one man chose to transgress His commandment we must suffer the first death, that of the flesh. Along with this comes all the suffering of the flesh, the heartache, misery and pain. For sin takes the opportunity through temptation that has separated us from God. The first death is a strong warning for us but few heed that warning, ignoring His judgment that all living things must die. This includes animals... all living things, for man was given the dominion over them and they cannot be greater than man with immortality of the flesh.

Death came into the world by judgment and men suffer death of the flesh.
Yet, they repent not.
Adam chose not to believe God opting instead to act on temptation, to eat the forbidden fruit.

I ask you, would this have been your judgment? You play on human sensibilities by stating, "He's not a sick god who wants to torture most of humanity." ignoring the results of a punishment handed down from God in Genesis. Would you have made all suffer for thousands of years for the transgression of one man?

Have we learned our lesson? As a collective whole I'd say no. He sends His Son for all who believe God, who recognize the warning for what it is, punishment for an unrepentant heart. It is our very nature to sin for nobody had to teach me how to lie, to steal, to covet with envy, to put blame on someone else or the motivations to kill.

There is another punishment coming, one stronger than the first, the total separation from God with no chance of salvation... the second death. To make this known He sent His Son by whose word He taught, He warned, performed miracles and shed His blood for those who would believe.
Yes, there is a second chance, His name is Jesus Christ. Will anyone take that second chance offered to all and believe God?

And if all are saved anyway, having learned nothing, opposing The Word, continuing in sin and depravity, repenting of nothing then the first death becomes an ugly joke with no purpose what-so-ever brought about by a sick god who wanted to torture all of humanity.

It's your call. You can either warn there is salvation from eternal damnation by faith in Jesus Christ or you can proclaim no such thing will happen so don't worry about it, there is no eternal Hell. And when they find out "no eternal Hell" is a lie then who will be held accountable? You? Them? Or both.

 

[Heidi]

So then when the bible talks about eternal life in heaven, do you think that's less time than eternity? Particulray when the word for eternal or everlasting is the same Greek word when the bible talks about heaven as it is when it talks babout hell. So why do you say heaven is eternal and hell is not when the same Greek word is used for both? You thus contradict yourself, my friend.

I just answered this on the last page. I never said that the Scriptures denote Heaven as Eternal. When did I say it? Give me a quote!
[quote:9f41d]
You also have not answered the question; If God wanted to tell us that hell is everlasting and eternal, then what words do you think the authors of the bible should use to convey that to us?

As far as I know there is no Koine Greek word denoting Eternity. The fact is that God didn't use any and He's not a sick god who wants to torture most of humanity.[/quote:9f41d]

So you're saying there is no eternity. Is that correct? If so, then you don't think God is eternal. Is that also correct? Do you see that when you try to change even one part of scripture, then you have to try to change all of it and even re-write the bible?

Do you also realize that you contradict most of the bible? You also don't realize that there has to be an eternity because even if there was a brick wall in the universe, there would always be something on the other side of it.

But all of your twisting words around is all so that man doesn't have to be held accountable for his wrongdoings. Sorry, Ikari, but you don't make the decisions of the universe. Hitler is not going to the same place Mother Theresa is no matter how much you think he deserves to. You are accountable for your actions and all you have to do is admit them and ask God for forgiveness for them.

God has graciously reached out his hand to all of us sinners and gives forgiveness to all who want it. But as far as I'm concerned, anyone who is too arrogant and deceitful to not admit he sins and refuses to ask for forgiveness gets what he deserves.

God is a just God. He is no fool. He cannot be mocked. it is not God who is guilty, it is we who are guilty. And again, all we have to do is admit that and ask him for forgiveness and we will have the glories of heaven forever. :angel: But unfortunately, humility & honesty are too high a price for some people. But that's their choice. So because God is all loving, he'll give everyone exactly what he wishes. If they want heaven they can have it. If they don't want it, they won't have it. It's that simple.

 

[TruthMiner]

So then when the bible talks about eternal life in heaven, do you think that's less time than eternity? Particulray when the word for eternal or everlasting is the same Greek word when the bible talks about heaven as it is when it talks babout hell. So why do you say heaven is eternal and hell is not when the same Greek word is used for both? You thus contradict yourself, my friend.

I just answered this on the last page. I never said that the Scriptures denote Heaven as Eternal. When did I say it? Give me a quote!
[quote:cccad]
You also have not answered the question; If God wanted to tell us that hell is everlasting and eternal, then what words do you think the authors of the bible should use to convey that to us?

As far as I know there is no Koine Greek word denoting Eternity. The fact is that God didn't use any and He's not a sick god who wants to torture most of humanity.

So you're saying there is no eternity. Is that correct? [/quote:cccad]

No it is not correct. That is not what he said. It should be obvious. Where do you get these ideas?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

How can I debate with such idiocy?

He's God. From everlasting to everlasting. God Eternal.
Because of sin death entered into the world. Because one man chose to transgress His commandment we must suffer the first death, that of the flesh. Along with this comes all the suffering of the flesh, the heartache, misery and pain. For sin takes the opportunity through temptation that has separated us from God. The first death is a strong warning for us but few heed that warning, ignoring His judgment that all living things must die. This includes animals... all living things, for man was given the dominion over them and they cannot be greater than man with immortality of the flesh.

Death came into the world by judgment and men suffer death of the flesh.
Yet, they repent not.
Adam chose not to believe God opting instead to act on temptation, to eat the forbidden fruit.

Okay, so in other words, God's blaming us for what Adam did?

I ask you, would this have been your judgment? You play on human sensibilities by stating, "He's not a sick god who wants to torture most of humanity." ignoring the results of a punishment handed down from God in Genesis. Would you have made all suffer for thousands of years for the transgression of one man?

Well, since I already planned for Adam to fall into sin from before the World began, Yes. I wouldn't have done anything different on the earth than God has already done. Humanity has to learn the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Have we learned our lesson? As a collective whole I'd say no. He sends His Son for all who believe God, who recognize the warning for what it is, punishment for an unrepentant heart. It is our very nature to sin for nobody had to teach me how to lie, to steal, to covet with envy, to put blame on someone else or the motivations to kill.

That's right, we are sinning machines. God created us to sin. We have no mythical "free-will" not to sin. God wants us to sin. It's part of His Perfect Plan.

There is another punishment coming, one stronger than the first, the total separation from God with no chance of salvation... the second death. To make this known He sent His Son by whose word He taught, He warned, performed miracles and shed His blood for those who would believe.
Yes, there is a second chance, His name is Jesus Christ. Will anyone take that second chance offered to all and believe God?

I utterly hate this teaching, with every fiber of my being. First late me state that no one, of his own mythical "free-will" chooses to follow God.

John 6:44 (King James Version) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So, Salvation is not a matter of chance. There is no second chance. It's all of God, "WHO WORKS ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL."

And if all are saved anyway, having learned nothing, opposing The Word, continuing in sin and depravity, repenting of nothing then the first death becomes an ugly joke with no purpose what-so-ever brought about by a sick god who wanted to torture all of humanity.

How can you even say that if All are saved, our earthly life is for nothing. We are learning the Knowledge of Good and Evil, everyday. We are learning how to laugh, cry, love, be human.

It's your call. You can either warn there is salvation from eternal damnation by faith in Jesus Christ or you can proclaim no such thing will happen so don't worry about it, there is no eternal Hell. And when they find out "no eternal Hell" is a lie then who will be held accountable? You? Them? Or both.

I'm sorry but I cannot say on one hand that GOD IS LOVE and that GOD IS GOING TO ETERNALLY DAMN MOST OF HUMANITY. That's a mixed message. In your view of God, the only reason for worshiping Him is to be saved from Hell. That's not true love! THAT'S SUBSERVIENT FEAR!

If we really have "free-will" and there is an "eternal hell" then I am definately going there. I really don't want to be with a god that would even consider sending a soul to hell for all eternity. I'll take full responsiblity.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

No it is not correct. That is not what he said. It should be obvious. Where do you get these ideas?

Thanks for backing me up. :angel:

But all of your twisting words around is all so that man doesn't have to be held accountable for his wrongdoings. Sorry, Ikari, but you don't make the decisions of the universe. Hitler is not going to the same place Mother Theresa is no matter how much you think he deserves to. You are accountable for your actions and all you have to do is admit them and ask God for forgiveness for them.

More Strawman arguments. I'm not twisting anything. You are the ones who are. I never, ever, said that man does not have to be held accountable for his actions. What you are saying is that if consequences are not eternal then they are moot. What kind of pathetic logic is that!

God has graciously reached out his hand to all of us sinners and gives forgiveness to all who want it. But as far as I'm concerned, anyone who is too arrogant and deceitful to not admit he sins and refuses to ask for forgiveness gets what he deserves.

The real question is why does God need to damn you for all eternity? What purpose does it serve?

God is a just God. He is no fool. He cannot be mocked. it is not God who is guilty, it is we who are guilty. And again, all we have to do is admit that and ask him for forgiveness and we will have the glories of heaven forever. #angel But unfortunately, humility & honesty are too high a price for some people. But that's their choice. So because God is all loving, he'll give everyone exactly what he wishes. If they want heaven they can have it. If they don't want it, they won't have it. It's that simple.

How can you call it justice when someone is eternally punished for a finite sin?


God is Love. It never says that He is Loving. Qeos[God] Agaph[Love] Estin[Is] Now what is love? Let us turn our attention to 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (King James Version) Charity[LOVE] suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.Charity never faileth:...

Ergo, God must be all of these things. Let us turn out attention to where the Holy Scriptures says, "Seeketh not her own." Now, let us suppose that Eternal Hell is a Truth of God. Of what benefit is it to the sinner? It can't be for the sake of God because He, "Seeketh not her own." That's right, God is selfless. He is purely altruistic. He gave His very own life on the Cross, this very day, a little less than two millenia ago.

I have a desire to Love God, now, that I know how great He is. When I believed in Eternal Torment, I only served Him out of subservient fear. He died for me on the Cross. I am so greatful for that and I really, really, love Him, for He is willing to go to any lengths to save His sons and daughters. He'll never give up on anyone. He loves us all, so very much. He's Love Itself. This is why I follow Him. This is why I worship Him as my God. It's so beautiful it almost brings me to tears. :smt059

 

[gingercat]

Ikari,

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that Jesus is not going to send anyone to hell and burn?

 

[gingercat]

Ikari,

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that Jesus is not going to send anyone to hell and burn?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Ikari,

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that Jesus is not going to send anyone to hell and burn?

YES! It is utter absurdity, and a contradiction, to believe that a God who is Love is going to torture most of humanity, the demons, Satan, for all eternity.

 

[gingercat]

Ikari,

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that Jesus is not going to send anyone to hell and burn?

YES! It is utter absurdity, and a contradiction, to believe that a God who is Love is going to torture most of humanity, the demons, Satan, for all eternity.

Ikari, so you don't believe the Bible is telling the wholethuth?

 

[gingercat]

Ikari,

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that Jesus is not going to send anyone to hell and burn?

YES! It is utter absurdity, and a contradiction, to believe that a God who is Love is going to torture most of humanity, the demons, Satan, for all eternity.

Ikari, so you don't believe the Bible is telling the wholethuth?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Ikari, so you don't believe the Bible is telling the wholethuth?

No, I believe that all Sixty-Six Greek and Hebrew Scriptures that make up our Bibles are the Inspired Word of God.

 

[mutzrein]

Where does it say, "God is Love?"