Colossians 2

[jocor]

Why can't these be understood spiritually and figuratively, as they are now?

On the other hand, there's no reason to think God would not bring the kingdom in line with the Mosaic time table of worship. Remember, that's just as okay to do, as it is not too.

The point being, God wants the kingdom to fulfill the requirements of the Mosaic worship law. As I've been saying, we do that now, but in Spirit and in truth, not literally by the letter of the law. There's no reason that the fulfillment being spoken about here has to be a literal to the letter of the law fulfillment. With the sacrifices for sin no longer required it can't be anyway.

I'm not arguing for a "letter of the law" fulfillment with these verses. I simply posted them to show you that the actual appointed time is still holy and that Yahweh will require attendance during those specific times. From year to year people will need to go to Jerusalem in unison which requires an exact day to attend. From Sabbath to Sabbath all people will worship Yahweh. This does not mean Sunday to Sunday. It means from one weekly Sabbath to another which requires the specific appointed time to continue to exist.

'You don't have to': Hebrews is where we learn about the setting aside and passing away of an old covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. Set aside because it was made obsolete and no longer needed by the one-time perfect sacrifice of Christ. Those literal things no longer conditions for covenant with God. The spiritual realities they only represented are the actual conditions that must be fulfilled to be in, and stay in covenant with, God. You don't need the literal way of the law to do that. The one who does it according to the spiritual way will condemn the one who does it literally but doesn't do it spiritually. That says a lot about the necessity to perform the literal along with the spiritual.

This holds true for the temple, priesthood and sacrificial laws, but not for the moral law including the ten commandments and more.

A law that tells you how to conduct a ceremony is a ceremonial law. That obviously differs from a law on how to conduct yourself around other people.

Resting and worshiping on an appointed holy day is not a ceremony. It is a required appointment to meet with Yahweh.

Well, actually they do have the right. Was it the most prudent thing to do? No, I don't think so. But to say the gentiles have to be circumcised, keep the literal Sabbaths, etc. as a matter of law that if they do not do that they will be punished is just simply wrong. The remaining debt of Mosaic law, yes, that will be punished for not being fulfilled through the new way given to do that--the Holy Spirit.

I don't recall saying anything about being "punished" on this side of the Millennium. Yahweh specifically said those that don't keep the Feast of Tabernacles once the Millennium begins will be punished with no rain. For those in Messiah on this side of the Millennium it is a matter of lost blessings and rewards.

 

[jocor]

If one law of the Law of Moses is broken, all are broken. Correct?
Circumcision was a Law of Moses and was literal before the Law of Moses. Correct?
It can still be done today, no temple needed. Correct?
So it should be mandatory today. Correct?

Gal 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

This is Paul, the Pharisee of Pharisee who was 'blameless' under the Law, speaking saying 'we' and 'us'.

Paul's arguments concerning circumcision where not against circumcision itself, but against the use of circumcision as a means to salvation/justification/righteousness. To get circumcised for the reason that the "false brethren" were compelling them to do so (justification) would put the believer back into bondage by seeking justification by works rather than by faith in Messiah. However, to circumcise our children out of love for Yahweh and obedience to His commandments is not bondage.

 

[jocor]

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? (Colossians 2:26-27 NAS)

Just some clear evidence that Paul did not teach that the literal MUST accompany the spiritual. And shows us how the spiritual actually fulfills and satisfies the literal, even though the literal is not literally done. No outstanding debt of Mosaic circumcision remains for the person who is circumcised in spirit.

The passage says the "uncircumcised" (believing Gentiles) "keeps the requirements of the Law" and "keeps the Law". They don't abolish the Law or change it in some spiritual way that causes them to break the Law.

The Law says that circumcision must be done on the eighth day of a boy's life. Gentile converts coming to Messiah missed that deadline. It would be impossible for them to keep the commandment as written. Therefore, Yahweh made an allowance for new Gentile converts in that situation. However, that does not negate the fact that they should circumcise their own sons on the eighth day as long as they are not doing it so they or their son can be saved, justified or be made righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...to circumcise our children out of love for Yahweh and obedience to His commandments is not bondage.

But to think you HAVE to is to miss the whole point of why God commanded literal circumcision in the first place.

This is that legalism I was talking about before. Not the legalism of trying to be justified by the keeping of the law of Moses. But the legalism of missing the intent of a literal law and improperly focusing on the literal instead of the truth the literal represents. Likewise for the other literal ceremonial stipulations in the law of Moses.

 

[jocor]

But to think you HAVE to is to miss the whole point of why God commanded literal circumcision in the first place.

This is that legalism I was talking about before. Not the legalism of trying to be justified by the keeping of the law of Moses. But the legalism of missing the intent of a literal law and improperly focusing on the literal instead of the truth the literal represents. Likewise for the other literal ceremonial stipulations in the law of Moses.

I don't focus on the literal. I simply obey the literal just as I would any commandment. I obey the literal law against idolatry while, at the same time, avoid spiritual idolatry as well. I obey the literal law of not committing adultery, but I also try to avoid looking at a woman lustfully. Obviously the circumcision of the heart is the greater circumcision, but that does not negate literal circumcision. Under the OC, Yahweh wanted both; circumcision of the heart and flesh. It is no different under the NC. If you murder, steal, commit adultery, etc., under the NC, you have not only broken the letter, but the spirit as well.

Yahweh and Yeshua want our obedience. They want us to sin no more. That is the ideal, the goal. If we want to do what they want, we HAVE TO obey their commandments. That does not mean we will lose our salvation if we don't fail to obey and it doesn't mean we are working in order to be justified. Obedience is out of love.

If you love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15​

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3
​

I was once given a prophecy by a visiting Pastor I never met. I had recently accepted the truth about keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy. The church was about to throw me out because they viewed me as having fallen from grace. At a weekly prayer meeting, this Pastor got up and began prophesying out loud. His words spoke directly to my heart to confirm I was doing Yahweh's will. One of the things he said was, "This is not a work for salvation, but because of it." I broke down in tears of joy, but eventually got kicked out anyway. They also turned me over to Satan for the destruction of my flesh. Having received a direct word from Yahweh through the gift of prophecy and confirmed the truth through Scripture, I will never abandon Yahweh's appointed holy days.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Obviously the circumcision of the heart is the greater circumcision, but that does not negate literal circumcision.

The passage I showed you in Romans 2 shows that it does.

All I can do is show you why I don't think the literal ceremonial worship laws are still required to be done. I'm not trying to dissuade you from thinking they are and you obeying them. But you need to know why the rest of us don't think that. There is lots of evidence in the NT to support it.

Under the OC, Yahweh wanted both; circumcision of the heart and flesh. It is no different under the NC.

The problem is, we simply do not see any evidence for this in the NT, but we do see evidence for the contrary in the NT. It is this evidence that you have to overcome to make your case.

If you murder, steal, commit adultery, etc., under the NC, you have not only broken the letter, but the spirit as well.

Which proves all the more the clear distinction between laws governing our ceremonial worship of God, and laws governing how we treat each other. I showed you in Romans 2 that not being physically does NOT mean you have also violated the spirit of the law.

Yahweh and Yeshua want our obedience. They want us to sin no more. That is the ideal, the goal. If we want to do what they want, we HAVE TO obey their commandments.

And I showed you in Romans 2 the example of circumcision and how it is possible to NOT literally keep a command, yet not be guilty of sin.

Like I say, this is not to persuade you to defile your conscience about law keeping. It's to make you see that non-law keepers have a valid NT defense of why they don't have to be a to-the-letter-of-the-law law keeper.

That does not mean we will lose our salvation if we don't fail to obey and it doesn't mean we are working in order to be justified. Obedience is out of love.

If you love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15​

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3​

No question about it. But that hardly means there is no legitimate NT teaching that explains how 'commandments' no longer means the letter of the law of Moses.

This is where many church doctrines goes wrong. Doctrine errs when it fails to consider the whole counsel of the word of God concerning something. I see this repeatedly in the church.

​

I was once given a prophecy by a visiting Pastor I never met. I had recently accepted the truth about keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy. The church was about to throw me out because they viewed me as having fallen from grace. At a weekly prayer meeting, this Pastor got up and began prophesying out loud. His words spoke directly to my heart to confirm I was doing Yahweh's will. One of the things he said was, "This is not a work for salvation, but because of it." I broke down in tears of joy, but eventually got kicked out anyway. They also turned me over to Satan for the destruction of my flesh. Having received a direct word from Yahweh through the gift of prophecy and confirmed the truth through Scripture, I will never abandon Yahweh's appointed holy days.

This is why I leave law keepers alone. Who am I to take this experience away from you? But if they'll listen, I don't mind explaining to them why it isn't necessary that others have this same experience too.

...but eventually got kicked out anyway. They also turned me over to Satan for the destruction of my flesh.

Lol, I'm not surprised. 'Law' is the four letter word of the church that is to never, ever be uttered.

It's all about grace now, a grace that has been misunderstood to mean "I'll be obedient if I can, but if I can't it doesn't matter because salvation is so utterly disconnected from what I do."* Not knowing that grace was given to us to obey God, not take false comfort in our not obeying him. But that's prolly the stuff of another thread.

* The lukewarm church of Revelation 3--we're so rich and well clothed in Christ by faith alone already that a seriousness about being obedient doesn't matter.

 

[jocor]

You are putting a lot of weight on Romans 2. Your post #100 has the wrong reference (Colossians 2:26-27 instead of Romans 2:26-27). Here is my understanding of the passage in context.

Rom 2:25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Let's reverse the thought to get the correct understanding. "So if the uncircumcised man does NOT keep the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as uncircumcision?"
Circumcision of the heart is made uncircumcision if the Law is not obeyed/practiced.
​

Rom 2:27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

"And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he does NOT keep the Law, will not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are also a transgressor of the Law?" Therefore, both will be judged for failing to keep the Law.
​

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Circumcision of the flesh is useless if the carnality of the heart is not dealt with by renewing one's mind to be like Messiah, obedient in all things commanded in the Law. It doesn't matter if the letter of the Law is obeyed concerning circumcision if the the heart has not been circumcised by the Spirit.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
​

The carnal mind cannot be subject to the Law of Yahweh, but the spiritual mind can if it doesn't fight against the Spirit as it leads them to keep the commandments.
According to Ezekiel 36:26-27, the new Spirit placed in the believer will cause the believer to obey Yahweh's laws.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

That is the result of the NC circumcised heart. Yahweh stated such prophetically to His people:

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither Yahweh thy Elohim hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto Yahweh thy Elohim, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then Yahweh thy Elohim will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither Yahweh thy Elohim hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will Yahweh thy Elohim gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And Yahweh thy Elohim will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And Yahweh thy Elohim will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Yahweh thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And Yahweh thy Elohim will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.​

This will be fulfilled in our future. As a result of the circumcision of the heart, the regathered people of Yahweh will keep all the commandments given through Moses. Many of Yahweh's people have been moved by the indwelling Holy Spirit to keep His commandments. They do not fight against the Spirit's leading.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your post #100 has the wrong reference (Colossians 2:26-27 instead of Romans 2:26-27).

It happens, lol.

Here is my understanding of the passage in context.

Rom 2:25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Let's reverse the thought to get the correct understanding. "So if the uncircumcised man does NOT keep the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as uncircumcision?"
Circumcision of the heart is made uncircumcision if the Law is not obeyed/practiced.​

The problem is, it's impossible that circumcision itself is included in the 'keeping of the law' Paul is talking about. Think about it. If it were, how could the uncircumcised fellow be 'keeping the requirements of the law'.

His own lack of law keeping--that is, his own uncircumcision--would make it impossible for the uncircumcised fellow to condemn the one who is circumcised but doesn't keep the requirements of the law. To make the passage mean what you're saying it means, Paul would have to say that they both stand equally condemned under the law for not keeping it. But he doesn't. He says the uncircumcised fellow condemns the circumcised fellow. Obviously, literal law keeping is not included in 'keeping the requirements of the law'. Obviously.

It doesn't matter if the letter of the Law is obeyed concerning circumcision if the the heart has not been circumcised by the Spirit.​

Likewise, it doesn't matter if you're uncircumcised if you are obeying the requirements of the law Paul is talking about. It's impossible to argue the point. If Paul condemned them both for their lack of law keeping you'd have a point. But he doesn't do that.

According to Ezekiel 36:26-27, the new Spirit placed in the believer will cause the believer to obey Yahweh's laws.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

But if you read the Romans passage we've just been discussing, spiritual circumcision satisfies the lawful requirement for circumcision. Just as Christ satisfies the lawful requirement for blood sacrifice, even though he is not a literal fulfillment of the law of Moses for blood sacrifice. Pretty hard to argue against. :wink


Again, I'm just sharing all this so you'll understand we non-law keepers aren't categorically the rebels some might think we are. We have good solid NT reasons why it is no longer necessary to keep the letter of the law concerning outward worship procedures and stipulations. I'm not sharing this so you'll sin against the vision you say you received. I don't want you to do that. What I want you to do is be more understanding of your brothers and sisters in Christ who have not had the same spiritual experience that you have had. Our responsibility is to understand that it's okay for you to feel compelled by conscience to honor Christ and the salvation you have received by keeping those literal worship stipulations.

 

[jocor]

It happens, lol.


The problem is, it's impossible that circumcision itself is included in the 'keeping of the law' Paul is talking about. Think about it. If it were, how could the uncircumcised fellow be 'keeping the requirements of the law'.

His own lack of law keeping--that is, his own uncircumcision--would make it impossible for the uncircumcised fellow to condemn the one who is circumcised but doesn't keep the requirements of the law. To make the passage mean what you're saying it means, Paul would have to say that they both stand equally condemned under the law for not keeping it. But he doesn't. He says the uncircumcised fellow condemns the circumcised fellow. Obviously, literal law keeping is not included in 'keeping the requirements of the law'. Obviously.

Likewise, it doesn't matter if you're uncircumcised if you are obeying the requirements of the law Paul is talking about. It's impossible to argue the point. If Paul condemned them both for their lack of law keeping you'd have a point. But he doesn't do that.

He doesn't do that because that is not his subject. He is addressing Jewish hypocrisy and pride.

But if you read the Romans passage we've just been discussing, spiritual circumcision satisfies the lawful requirement for circumcision. Just as Christ satisfies the lawful requirement for blood sacrifice, even though he is not a literal fulfillment of the law of Moses for blood sacrifice. Pretty hard to argue against. :wink

I agree that "spiritual circumcision satisfies the lawful requirement for circumcision" (for adult converts). It doesn't satisfy it for 8 day old children who do not have circumcised hearts.

Again, I'm just sharing all this so you'll understand we non-law keepers aren't categorically the rebels some might think we are. We have good solid NT reasons why it is no longer necessary to keep the letter of the law concerning outward worship procedures and stipulations.

The Jerusalem council said there were four essential requirements from the law that Gentile believers needed to obey. How are they to "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood" in the spirit, but not in the letter? How are we to avoid keeping the letter of the law concerning the Ten Commandments?

I'm not sharing this so you'll sin against the vision you say you received. I don't want you to do that. What I want you to do is be more understanding of your brothers and sisters in Christ who have not had the same spiritual experience that you have had. Our responsibility is to understand that it's okay for you to feel compelled by conscience to honor Christ and the salvation you have received by keeping those literal worship stipulations.

Wise council. However, the prophecy was not just for me, but for all the believers in attendance that day. It spoke to my heart as a confirmation of my obedience, but it was also an admonition to them to embrace what Yahweh had showed me. I was the one Yahweh chose to bring the Sabbath message to that church. The prophecy confirmed that as well. They chose to reject it and me. That does not negate my responsibility to teach it. I do try to be understanding of others who do not understand it yet. Am I being too hard on you? The church has been misled concerning the Sabbaths of Yahweh for hundreds of years. It is not easy to undo such a false teaching.