Bible Study Condemnation? Which Is It?

[Chopper]

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (KJV)

Lets look at this statement. I see two possibilities regarding "No Condemnation".
1. If I'm IN Christ Jesus. Is my "position" (Biblical Salvation)?

2."Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit". Is my WALK Spirit led?

So, is "no condemnation" a position or is it a walk.

Have you ever noticed that the Revised Version doesn't include the "walk"?
Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." (RV)

According to Kenneth Wuest....The words "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit," are rejected by both Nestle and Westcott and Hort.

Dr. Wuest's Translation: Therefore, now, there is not even one bit of condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus....Apparently he felt that the Apostle Paul leaned to the "position".

Hey Friends....Which is it??

 

[JohnDB]

How about that magic little word "therefore"?

What theological points did Paul make before this?

The Gospel/Good News isn't that we have sinned or are currently involved in transgressions. (That's the bad news)

The Good News is that God can love us anyway...He wants a positive relationship with us in spite of our behavior and attitudes. And since God doesn't condemn us.... Anyone who does must be in league with Satan.

 

[Chopper]

How about that magic little word "therefore"?

What theological points did Paul make before this?

The Gospel/Good News isn't that we have sinned or are currently involved in transgressions. (That's the bad news)

The Good News is that God can love us anyway...He wants a positive relationship with us in spite of our behavior and attitudes. And since God doesn't condemn us.... Anyone who does must be in league with Satan.

I wanted to know from you, is no condemnation due to a position in Christ? Or because of a walk in the Spirit?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I wanted to know from you, is no condemnation due to a position in Christ? Or because of a walk in the Spirit?

I cannot begin to disagree with either translation as they both say the same thing but because of the leddons I have taught I still tend to see it just as described in Genesis 3 where God walked in the Garden with Adam.

 

[smaller]

It's problematic to have our feet in two positions. We'd like to claim we are wholly and entirely in the Spirit, but reality always proves otherwise.

Therefore it is wholly and entirely positional. I prefer to term it "FIXED." How this plays out is another matter altogether. See first sentence.

The difficulty of all Christian theological understandings and Christian life in general involves the reality of contrariness and opposition, within our own flesh.

But, that is also the pleasure and the challenge.

Few care to see our Savior as their condemner, but that Role is just as much of a reality as the opposite Role.

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Condemnation brings us into discipline or 'discipleship.'

 

[Papa Zoom]

I wanted to know from you, is no condemnation due to a position in Christ? Or because of a walk in the Spirit?

It's all due to "them which are in Christ Jesus." Following that is the explanation of what it means to be in Christ: "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." That will be the evidence that would be manifest if a person is truly in Christ. It's Jesus plus nothing that saves. But as a follower of Christ, if I'm not walking where He's walked (which is what you do when you are following someone) then I'm not a follower. To follow Jesus is to walk with him no matter where that leads. He goes to the right, you follow. Followers don't go left.

 

[Pegasus]

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (KJV)

Lets look at this statement. I see two possibilities regarding "No Condemnation".
1. If I'm IN Christ Jesus. Is my "position" (Biblical Salvation)?

2."Who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit". Is my WALK Spirit led?

So, is "no condemnation" a position or is it a walk.

Have you ever noticed that the Revised Version doesn't include the "walk"?
Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." (RV)

According to Kenneth Wuest....The words "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit," are rejected by both Nestle and Westcott and Hort.

Dr. Wuest's Translation: Therefore, now, there is not even one bit of condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus....Apparently he felt that the Apostle Paul leaned to the "position".

Hey Friends....Which is it??

Using Textus Receptus vs. Nestle and Westcott and Hort can be remedied by looking at verse 2:

Romans 8:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.

 

[JohnDB]

I wanted to know from you, is no condemnation due to a position in Christ? Or because of a walk in the Spirit?

OK.
Not exactly sure the difference between the two but...

Position in Christ. (Hey, none of us are perfect all the time)

What this is in Romans is Paul's exposition of the story known as "Peter's Confession of Christ".
The action in that story takes place at Caesarea Phillipi which had the "World's largest outdoor orgy" at that time. Which no one usually knows because of the lack of anyone mentioning it... Because the Gospel message is about telling how good God is and not how sinful people are.

Soooo...Considering this "rock" of telling how good and personable God is is what the Church is built upon and became the Gospel message in light of such hedonistic behavior... Condemnation of any that claim Christ is really wrong. Condemnation of behavior?...OK I can see that so long as it is done with the hearer in mind and not the teller. (Most often not the case)

 

[ezrider]

It's all due to "them which are in Christ Jesus." Following that is the explanation of what it means to be in Christ: "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." That will be the evidence that would be manifest if a person is truly in Christ. It's Jesus plus nothing that saves. But as a follower of Christ, if I'm not walking where He's walked (which is what you do when you are following someone) then I'm not a follower. To follow Jesus is to walk with him no matter where that leads. He goes to the right, you follow. Followers don't go left.

Yes, to follow Christ is to walk with him no matter where that leads. But then you go on to say you can only follow to the right, but you can not follow to the left. That says to me that you are not willing to follow no matter where Jesus leads you, only where you are willing to be led. Have you not heard the words of Jesus pertaining those that are led of the Spirit

John 3:7-8
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I see no right or left in that. Perhaps you were trying to be funny, in a political kind of way. So that leads me to a question. While I welcome your comments over hear in the Bible Study forum, I have noticed that the majority of your posting has been in the Current Event and Politics forum. Since this thread is about the condemnation, or rather the absence thereof for those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Do those who identify themselves as Christians and spend the majority of their time commenting on politics and condemning liberal thought for the most part. Would you say that these people show forth the characteristics of walking after the Spirit? Or by their comments do they bear the fruit of walking after the flesh?

 

[smaller]

Here are scriptural examples of Paul walking after the flesh, post salvation:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

The above statement of fact is in direct accord with Jesus' Facts from Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28. Paul is ALIGNING himself with Jesus' TRUTH in the above, and not in DENIAL of Jesus' Facts. It's called "evil thoughts" which defile us. They are not OPTIONAL. They are a direct result of sin coming into contact with THE LAW, which then spurs internal resistance. This is Christian understanding, 101.

There is a mountain of more evidence of Paul walking in the flesh. So let's open our own eyes to the obvious, shall we?

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

I'd insert a "ding" here for the above just to draw people's attentions to the fact of it.

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

So, in one brief chapter, we can observe Paul having evil thoughts, doing what he hates and doing evil. I could go on at length with even more observations of this matter, but if a reader can't pick up on the obvious above they never will.

Salvation is not and can not be hooked to ourselves or our works. The above facts show and prove WHY this is not and can not be the case.

The path Paul brings us down by using the LAW is directly into the cold hard facts that we are not going to avoid the conclusions of being sinners, present tense, REGARDLESS of any "good actions." This path that Paul takes us down brings us all directly to the condemnation of Romans 8:3.

And Paul then employs these facts to show a TWO FOLD state.

One, that the flesh body is DEAD because of the very real facts of sin indwelling the flesh and evil present therein, Romans 8:10, which are by the way adverse spiritual workings. These things, indwelling sin and evil present with us are NOT forensic. They are the result of the "spirit of disobedience" operational in the flesh. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8. As distasteful as it is, our sin, yes, ours, is connected to the devil, quite clearly. We are called OUT from pawnship to that working, but we can, will and do contend with it every single day of our lives in the flesh. And yes, it is operational, as PAUL HIMSELF shows us, by many personal examples.

The point of this is twofold. We do walk in the flesh, having sin, evil present, quite active because we are engaged with perpetual warring therein, Romans 7:23. This warring even extends to various forms of blind disputes among us all, as is entirely obvious.

These things are condemned by God in Christ. Whether active or passive.

Nevertheless, our SALVATION is in Him, OF HIM, not of ourselves. Which is the general point. Every "works salvation" proponent is blind to the obvious problems with that posture. They are only kidding themselves about the facts above, vainly trying to justify what can not and never will be justified or justifiable.

Condemnation is A GOOD THING to apply to ourselves, to our own flesh. It is an excellent instrument to keep indwelling sin and evil present in CHECK.

Now, who wants a nice steaming hot plate of condemnation? Any takers? No, it's not a pleasant meal, at first bite. It is one that is only savored over time because it brings us a critical state of humbleness. We dare not lift our head above HIS.

 

[Chopper]

Here are scriptural examples of Paul walking after the flesh, post salvation:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

The above statement of fact is in direct accord with Jesus' Facts from Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28. Paul is ALIGNING himself with Jesus' TRUTH in the above, and not in DENIAL of Jesus' Facts. It's called "evil thoughts" which defile us. They are not OPTIONAL. They are a direct result of sin coming into contact with THE LAW, which then spurs internal resistance. This is Christian understanding, 101.

There is a mountain of more evidence of Paul walking in the flesh. So let's open our own eyes to the obvious, shall we?

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

I'd insert a "ding" here for the above just to draw people's attentions to the fact of it.

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

So, in one brief chapter, we can observe Paul having evil thoughts, doing what he hates and doing evil. I could go on at length with even more observations of this matter, but if a reader can't pick up on the obvious above they never will.

Salvation is not and can not be hooked to ourselves or our works. The above facts show and prove WHY this is not and can not be the case.

The path Paul brings us down by using the LAW is directly into the cold hard facts that we are not going to avoid the conclusions of being sinners, present tense, REGARDLESS of any "good actions." This path that Paul takes us down brings us all directly to the condemnation of Romans 8:3.

And Paul then employs these facts to show a TWO FOLD state.

One, that the flesh body is DEAD because of the very real facts of sin indwelling the flesh and evil present therein, Romans 8:10, which are by the way adverse spiritual workings. These things, indwelling sin and evil present with us are NOT forensic. They are the result of the "spirit of disobedience" operational in the flesh. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 John 3:8. As distasteful as it is, our sin, yes, ours, is connected to the devil, quite clearly. We are called OUT from pawnship to that working, but we can, will and do contend with it every single day of our lives in the flesh. And yes, it is operational, as PAUL HIMSELF shows us, by many personal examples.

The point of this is twofold. We do walk in the flesh, having sin, evil present, quite active because we are engaged with perpetual warring therein, Romans 7:23. This warring even extends to various forms of blind disputes among us all, as is entirely obvious.

These things are condemned by God in Christ. Whether active or passive.

Nevertheless, our SALVATION is in Him, OF HIM, not of ourselves. Which is the general point. Every "works salvation" proponent is blind to the obvious problems with that posture. They are only kidding themselves about the facts above, vainly trying to justify what can not and never will be justified or justifiable.

Condemnation is A GOOD THING to apply to ourselves, to our own flesh. It is an excellent instrument to keep indwelling sin and evil present in CHECK.

Now, who wants a nice steaming hot plate of condemnation? Any takers? No, it's not a pleasant meal, at first bite. It is one that is only savored over time because it brings us a critical state of humbleness. We dare not lift our head above HIS.

It looks to me that the general consensus is....There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. And I agree. Thanks to everyone who posted.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes, to follow Christ is to walk with him no matter where that leads. But then you go on to say you can only follow to the right, but you can not follow to the left. That says to me that you are not willing to follow no matter where Jesus leads you, only where you are willing to be led. Have you not heard the words of Jesus pertaining those that are led of the Spirit

John 3:7-8
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I see no right or left in that. Perhaps you were trying to be funny, in a political kind of way. So that leads me to a question. While I welcome your comments over hear in the Bible Study forum, I have noticed that the majority of your posting has been in the Current Event and Politics forum. Since this thread is about the condemnation, or rather the absence thereof for those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Do those who identify themselves as Christians and spend the majority of their time commenting on politics and condemning liberal thought for the most part. Would you say that these people show forth the characteristics of walking after the Spirit? Or by their comments do they bear the fruit of walking after the flesh?

You misunderstood what I said. I said that if Jesus goes right, you don't go left. In the same way, if He goes left, you don't go right.

 

[ezrider]

You misunderstood what I said. I said that if Jesus goes right, you don't go left. In the same way, if He goes left, you don't go right.

Thank you for clearing up that misunderstanding. When you said they don't go left, I saw that as its own stand alone statement, because it followed a period, which is why I asked if it was meant as a political funny.

But you didn't answer the rest of my question. Do those who post daily in the CE&P forum demonstrate the fruits of walking after the Spirit? Or do their comments demonstrate the fruits of walking after the flesh?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Thank you for clearing up that misunderstanding. When you said they don't go left, I saw that as its own stand alone statement, because it followed a period, which is why I asked if it was meant as a political funny.

But you didn't answer the rest of my question. Do those who post daily in the CE&P forum demonstrate the fruits of walking after the Spirit? Or do their comments demonstrate the fruits of walking after the flesh?

I have never given it much thought. I think we can see both. But the nature of an open discussion can allow for honest exchanges. Whereas face-to-face require more restraint. That's my opinion. Although I think restraint ought to be present in both forms but I understand how discussion forums can be a bit more edgy. It's the purpose of CE&P to discuss issues. Issues can bring out passions and some have a more gentle approach while others are straight shooters and can come across as a tad rough. It would be a mistake to label posts from others as "walking after the flesh" due to posting style. We aren't yet perfect and some of us are more sensitive than are others. Read to understand the point, step back, analyze points made, respond. Don't read more into a post than is intended. When in doubt, ask questions and accept clarifications offered. Be gracious from both sides. Don't get hung up on style.

That said, there are posters (not saying here) that are nothing but trouble makers and trolls and they seek to cause trouble in forums. This is different than what I've posted above. I don't want to be gracious to these people. They are saboteurs and deserve the contempt they earn. IMHO.

 

[Chopper]

I have never given it much thought. I think we can see both. But the nature of an open discussion can allow for honest exchanges. Whereas face-to-face require more restraint. That's my opinion. Although I think restraint ought to be present in both forms but I understand how discussion forums can be a bit more edgy. It's the purpose of CE&P to discuss issues. Issues can bring out passions and some have a more gentle approach while others are straight shooters and can come across as a tad rough. It would be a mistake to label posts from others as "walking after the flesh" due to posting style. We aren't yet perfect and some of us are more sensitive than are others. Read to understand the point, step back, analyze points made, respond. Don't read more into a post than is intended. When in doubt, ask questions and accept clarifications offered. Be gracious from both sides. Don't get hung up on style.

That said, there are posters (not saying here) that are nothing but trouble makers and trolls and they seek to cause trouble in forums. This is different than what I've posted above. I don't want to be gracious to these people. They are saboteurs and deserve the contempt they earn. IMHO.

I do agree with you Pap Zoom. I believe, as you said, " I think we can see both" A person who is biblically saved must be IN Christ, and walk in the Spirit.

 

[smaller]

It looks to me that the general consensus is....There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. And I agree. Thanks to everyone who posted.

Indwelling sin, evil present, all it's ways and works are and will remain condemned.

This does not mean the believer is condemned. They may be blinded. They may be pawned. But they won't be "permanently lost."

The entire point of the exercises of scripture is to "divide us" from the spirit of disobedience and to keep us from being blinded and pawned by it and it's workings. But these attempts cause all/every kind of confusions among us, because the spirit of disobedience is "active" in the flesh.

We might learn that when the light of Gods Word/Spirit shines on the spirit of disobedience, it whines to high heaven, and does not like that light shed upon it, exposing, revealing. 2 Cor. 4:4. Kinda like Dracula and sunshine. They don't mix well.

 

[Chopper]

Indwelling sin, evil present, all it's ways and works are and will remain condemned.

This does not mean the believer is condemned. They may be blinded. They may be pawned. But they won't be "permanently lost."

The entire point of the exercises of scripture is to "divide us" from the spirit of disobedience and to keep us from being blinded and pawned by it and it's workings. But these attempts cause all/every kind of confusions among us, because the spirit of disobedience is "active" in the flesh.

We might learn that when the light of Gods Word/Spirit shines on the spirit of disobedience, it whines to high heaven, and does not like that light shed upon it, exposing, revealing. 2 Cor. 4:4. Kinda like Dracula and sunshine. They don't mix well.

I like your reply, and your right. I have found that my worst enemy is....Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

To be honest, the more that I've loved and surrendered my life to my Master Jesus, and presented my body a living sacrifice to my Heavenly Father, this war between the flesh and the Spirit never stops. There are times when the battle is just to much. I can identify with the Apostle Paul in Romans 7. "O wretched man that I am."

My delight is to be in Romans 8 where I walk in step with the Holy Spirit, O what freedom.

 

[smaller]

I like your reply, and your right. I have found that my worst enemy is....Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

To be honest, the more that I've loved and surrendered my life to my Master Jesus, and presented my body a living sacrifice to my Heavenly Father, this war between the flesh and the Spirit never stops. There are times when the battle is just to much. I can identify with the Apostle Paul in Romans 7. "O wretched man that I am."

My delight is to be in Romans 8 where I walk in step with the Holy Spirit, O what freedom.

You may find this hard to understand chopper, but I delight in the condemnation of God in Christ, against the spirit of disobedience that I know for no uncertain fact is "in my flesh." All the dire Words in the scriptures that old guy long term believers like us probably spent most of our believing lives avoiding like the PLAGUE are actually meant for our LIFE. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

and when I saw this, I REJOICED!!!

Yes, the Spirit really is against and contrary to the flesh. Gal. 5:17.

 

[dirtfarmer]

You may find this hard to understand chopper, but I delight in the condemnation of God in Christ, against the spirit of disobedience that I know for no uncertain fact is "in my flesh." All the dire Words in the scriptures that old guy long term believers like us probably spent most of our believing lives avoiding like the PLAGUE are actually meant for our LIFE. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

and when I saw this, I REJOICED!!!

Yes, the Spirit really is against and contrary to the flesh. Gal. 5:17.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

What I rejoice in is the salvation of the Lord, because I am not worthy but his righteousness, that is imputed to me by faith, has removed all condemnation.
Romans 8:1 "There is therefore no condemnation, to them which are in Christ Jesus."
If you are still "in or have condemnation" you are without salvation.
Ephesians 2:5-6 " Even when we were dead in sins( speaks in past tense), hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved;) and has raise us up together( does Christ have a nature to sin?) and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

What is your interpretation of 1 John3:9-10 " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

If you are still "in or have condemnation" you are without salvation.

I consider that sight one sided nonsense. Sorry.

We can be fully assured that God in Christ condemns all evil and sin, period, in anyone. Romans 8:3.

Do you think even for a minute that Paul taught that God in Christ was for and in behalf of the lustful thoughts that Paul had in Romans 7:7-13? That God in Christ was for and in behalf of Paul doing things he hated in Romans 7:15? That God in Christ was for and in behalf of Paul doing evil, Romans 7:19?

I'll spare you the drama and say NAY, NO, not even for 1 second would I believe any of that. Every single thing above, noted by Paul, that Paul did was CONDEMNED by God in Christ, period. Not overlooked. Not covered up, covered over, brushed aside, oh no big deal, forgiven, not looking,---> but CONDEMNED.

That was WHY Paul saw his state as WRETECHED. Romans 7:24

What is your interpretation of 1 John3:9-10 " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

I don't do "interpretation." Let's get this clear. Paul defined the sin dwelling in his own flesh as NO MORE I, twice, in Romans 7:17 & 20. Get to that point and maybe we can "flesh out the facts" in more detail. I'll tell you in advance that the understanding of sin lands quite solidly on all sin and evil being DEMONIC or 'OF THE DEVIL.' 1 John 3:8 . IF any of you don't understand that YOUR SIN (an mine, likewise) is demonic, YOU SEE NOTHING and are in fact blinded to that reality by that working of the devil.