Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[Doulos Iesou]

Edom is a prophetic symbol of the world, the flesh that which is cursed.

Where is your textual basis for this?

 

[JLB]

Where is your textual basis for this?

From God's word. -

1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it. 2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter. 3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Isaiah 34:1-4,8


And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;...

Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. Revelation 6:14

The prophecy from Isaiah 34 is a reference to the day of the Lord, The day of vengeance!


JLB

 

[Chopper]

Doulos, Chessman, Butch & JLB. I would like a list of words that imply conditional immortality and conscious punishment & torture forever in the lake of fire. This will speed up my research if you'd like to help me. Thank you in advance.

 

[agua.]

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Context determines the definition of the word. This word being relative to time and may even be that that time is determined by circumstance/s requires determining use in context I would think.
The only qualifier I see for this 'eternal', is belief.

I also think the use of 'everlasting' in Matt. is incorrect transliteration it should be 'eternal'. There is no reason to use two different words in English when the same word is used in the Greek.
Vine's says this,
"
Vine's
"[ 2,,G126, aidios ]
denotes everlasting" (from aei, "ever"), Romans 1:20, RV, "everlasting," for AV, "eternal;" Jude 1:6, AV and RV "everlasting." Aionios, should always be translated "eternal" and aidios, "everlasting." "While aionios ... negatives the end either of a space of time or of unmeasured time, and is used chiefly where something future is spoken of, aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer)."

'aidios' is used when speaking of God being 'everlasting'.

I also think the use of 'everlasting' in Matt. is incorrect transliteration it should be 'eternal'. There is no reason to use two different words in English when the same word is used in the Greek.

I agree Deb and this points to a possible explanation of why the translators used ever lasting instead of eternal which Butch touched on earlier. imo

 

[Butch5]

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Context determines the definition of the word. This word being relative to time and may even be that that time is determined by circumstance/s requires determining use in context I would think.
The only qualifier I see for this 'eternal', is belief.

I also think the use of 'everlasting' in Matt. is incorrect transliteration it should be 'eternal'. There is no reason to use two different words in English when the same word is used in the Greek.
Vine's says this,
"
Vine's
"[ 2,,G126, aidios ]
denotes everlasting" (from aei, "ever"), Romans 1:20, RV, "everlasting," for AV, "eternal;" Jude 1:6, AV and RV "everlasting." Aionios, should always be translated "eternal" and aidios, "everlasting." "While aionios ... negatives the end either of a space of time or of unmeasured time, and is used chiefly where something future is spoken of, aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer)."

'aidios' is used when speaking of God being 'everlasting'.

Hi Deb,

I agree. This using different English words to translate the same Greek or Hebrew word causes much confusion, just look at the word hell.

 

[Chopper]

That is totally agreeable, I personally took a good amount of time studying on my own before I made the decision.

I will try to make myself available for any questions you may have.

I would like words that mean destroy. Any word & Text that supports the CI doctrine. like everlasting punishment Mt. 25:46. If you would. I know it will be a crash course for me. I do think that you have a very valid doctrine. I want to believe it because I've always been a rebel. I want the TRUTH!

 

[JLB]

I would like words that mean destroy. Any word & Text that supports the CI doctrine. like everlasting punishment Mt. 25:46. If you would. I know it will be a crash course for me. I do think that you have a very valid doctrine. I want to believe it because I've always been a rebel. I want the TRUTH!

I will start with one scripture that has the most relevance for us today.

This may be considered an extreme case, with extremely fearful consequences, but is relevant to our generation.

I believe this generation should hear the full uncut truth about the fate of those who are rebellious in this matter.

So here it is.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

I for one shutter to think of what it would be like on the receiving end of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

Does this generation have the information that will allow them to die a martyrs death, rather than take this mark?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I would like words that mean destroy. Any word & Text that supports the CI doctrine. like everlasting punishment Mt. 25:46. If you would. I know it will be a crash course for me. I do think that you have a very valid doctrine. I want to believe it because I've always been a rebel. I want the TRUTH!

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Destroy = G622
punishment = G2851

G622 = http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G622&t=KJV
G2851 = http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

The KJV translates Strongs G2851 in the following manner: punishment (1x), torment (1x).
The KJV translates Strongs G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x), misc (2x).

I don't know if you have used Blue Letter Bible. If you pull up the links above and roll to the bottom you will see all the verses that use these Greek words. As you can see, there are only two that use G2851 and about 80 that use G622.

Hope this is what you are looking for.

 

[Chopper]

I will start with one scripture that has the most relevance for us today.

This may be considered an extreme case, with extremely fearful consequences, but is relevant to our generation.

I believe this generation should hear the full uncut truth about the fate of those who are rebellious in this matter.

So here it is.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

I for one shutter to think of what it would be like on the receiving end of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

Does this generation have the information that will allow them to die a martyrs death, rather than take this mark?

JLB

Thanks old Buddy, I agree, I'm going to examine each word of this one right off.

 

[Chopper]

I will start with one scripture that has the most relevance for us today.

This may be considered an extreme case, with extremely fearful consequences, but is relevant to our generation.

I believe this generation should hear the full uncut truth about the fate of those who are rebellious in this matter.

So here it is.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12

I for one shutter to think of what it would be like on the receiving end of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

Does this generation have the information that will allow them to die a martyrs death, rather than take this mark?

JLB

I must say, this is very convincing. "Wrath" = Fierceness, "Tormented" = G929 To Torture, "ever & ever" = Gk. aion, perpetuity/ ever more.

 

[Chopper]

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Destroy = G622
punishment = G2851

G622 = http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G622&t=KJV
G2851 = http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

The KJV translates Strongs G2851 in the following manner: punishment (1x), torment (1x).
The KJV translates Strongs G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x), misc (2x).

I don't know if you have used Blue Letter Bible. If you pull up the links above and roll to the bottom you will see all the verses that use these Greek words. As you can see, there are only two that use G2851 and about 80 that use G622.

Hope this is what you are looking for.

It is Deb. thank you. One problem though, Mt. 10:28, destroy, Gk. apollum = destroy fully, which is CI. Whereas Mt. 25:46 punishment, Gk. kolasis = torment, which is ECT. So which one are you?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I must say, this is very convincing. "Wrath" = Fierceness, "Tormented" = G929 To Torture, "ever & ever" = Gk. aion, perpetuity/ ever more.

Hi Chopper,

I am not contending for a different meaning to basanismos, what I am contending against is the overall interpretation of this passage. Particularly whether or not it is meant to be taken literally or figuratively.

This passage I addressed in Post #7.

Hi Chopper,

I appreciate your honest assessment of the matter, and I would agree with your perspective on Revelation 20:10-15. I will present a couple ways that annihilationists have dealt with these texts, Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 14:9-11 (which goes into even more detail).

Position #1 (the one I don't support)
There are many who believe only demonic forces will be punished forever, which includes those who receive the mark of the beast.

Position #2 (the one I do support)
That the straight-forward interpretation of this passage is ill-advised. Now is this just a rejection of the literal approach for my own purposes, or is there justification for such a position? Well, the book of Revelation is Apocalyptic literature which contains a lot of symbolic and metaphorical language as it did in the Old Testament. Much of the response to liberalism has since over-emphasized the need to literally interpret the Bible, even when proper hermeneutics dictate that we shouldn't.

My question then, is if there are any instances of this imagery being used else where that indicates a metaphorical interpretation? You'll find the answer and the evidence interesting I hope.

Going back to the OT Apocalyptic literature, we find Isaiah prophesying the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34, where he writes.

And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:9-10 (ESV)

And now compare to Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Revelation 14:10-11 (ESV)

Now, in Edom it said that the smoke from it shall rise forever. Does it still rise forever today? No.
It said that it will always lie waste. Does it still lie in waste today? No.
It said that none will ever pass through it. Does anyone pass through it today? Yes, there is a highway where ancient Edom was.

Now if we understand this imagery literally, we come to see that this didn't actually happen. Unless like many other prophecies this imagery is hyperbole to speak about the permanent destruction of Edom. Therefore, as this imagery is employed elsewhere as hyperbole to describe permanent destruction, I view the texts in Revelation 14 andRevelation 20 in this Hebriac way.

Also here is an image that might be helpful in looking at some of the various views on the matter.

 

[JLB]

Hi Chopper,

I am not contending for a different meaning to basanismos, what I am contending against is the overall interpretation of this passage. Particularly whether or not it is meant to be taken literally or figuratively.

This passage I addressed in Post #7.

Your assessment that was presented in post # 7 was addressed and found to be a reference to the day of vengeance which is yet to be fulfilled.

The evidence I presented is clear and contextual.

JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It is Deb. thank you. One problem though, Mt. 10:28, destroy, Gk. apollum = destroy fully, which is CI. Whereas Mt. 25:46 punishment, Gk. kolasis = torment, which is ECT. So which one are you?

Kolasis does not mean torment, I went over this in Post #245. If there is an exegetical foundation for it denoting torment then we can discuss that. What I see however is people inserting their doctrine of eternal conscious torment into the meaning of the word, rather than the word actually having that connotation innately.

See here:

I'm confused Chopper, it seems like you switched your position back based upon the opinion of one man regarding the meaning of the Greek word "κόλασις."

The word simply means "punishment" and does not denote torment at all. I happen to have loads of ancient Greek words that use this word, and they all simply have the connotation of punishment. What ECT'ers do is insert the idea of torment based upon their doctrine to grant further support, however there is nothing within the word itself that means torment. This is a mistake derived from the KJV.

so under some governments the punishments precede the accusation, and the condemnation prevents the proving of the crime. Under such circumstances,
Plutarch. (1874). Plutarch’s Morals. (Vol. 4, p. 329). Medford, MA: Little, Brown, and Company.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Now the sentence of ostracism was not a chastisement of base practices, nay, it was speciously called a humbling and docking of oppressive prestige and power;
Plutarch. (1914). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[This one would actually support the Universalist understanding, which has the thought not of just punishment but restorative justice; chastisement.]

while from all his punishments he took away the element of insult or vindictive pleasure, and in his acceptance and bestowal of favours appeared no less gracious and kindly to the givers than to the recipients.
Plutarch. (1926). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Many were his memorable achievements in meting out rewards or punishments to those who deserved them, but I shall here describe only that in which both he himself and the chief men of Rome took especial pleasure.
Plutarch. (1918). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Therefore the Argives are said to have punished deviation from the ancient music, and to have imposed a fine upon such as first adventured to play with more than seven strings, and to introduce the Mixolydian mood.
Pseudo-Plutarch. (1874). Plutarch’s Morals. (Vol. 1, p. 130). Medford, MA: Little, Brown, and Company.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

I have 206 examples in my Logos of this Greek used in ancient Greek literature, and by studying the whole of how the word is used we understand that it means simply "the act of inflicting punishment."

Hope this helps,
DI

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Your assessment that was presented in post # 7 was addressed and found to be a reference to the day of vengeance which is yet to be fulfilled.

The evidence I presented is clear and contextual.

JLB

I'll address your arguments when I get home later today, however I myself and many other commentators clearly see that this is a prophecy concerning the destruction of the historical nation of Edom. Which is an example to all nations of God's anger and wrath should they not repent, this is one of the strongest evidences for the Bible in that we have in several places (here is one of them) where God prophesies their destruction.

Regards,
DI

 

[DRS81]

Annihilationism is false and classified under cult beliefs. Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians believe that nonsense.

 

[JLB]

I'll address your arguments when I get home later today, however I myself and many other commentators clearly see that this is a prophecy concerning the destruction of the historical nation of Edom. Which is an example to all nations of God's anger and wrath should they not repent, this is one of the strongest evidences for the Bible in that we have in several places (here is one of them) where God prophesies their destruction.

Regards,
DI

Many of the prophecies are veiled in language that concerns the final fulfillment.

Isaiah 13 is one example.

Isaiah 61 is one that I pointed out that was dual in that it was partly fulfilled at Jesus' first Coming and the vengeance part will be fulfilled at His return.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Doulos, Chessman, Butch & JLB. I would like a list of words that imply conditional immortality and conscious punishment & torture forever in the lake of fire. This will speed up my research if you'd like to help me. Thank you in advance.

Hi Chopper,

Here is a list of some terms used to describe the fate of the wicked in both the Old and New Testaments.

End of the Wicked - A Summary

 

[Butch5]

Just a reminder. I think we need to remember that the way words are used in the Scriptures is more important than the definitions we find in dictionaries and lexicons.

 

[Deborah13]

It is Deb. thank you. One problem though, Mt. 10:28, destroy, Gk. apollum = destroy fully, which is CI. Whereas Mt. 25:46 punishment, Gk. kolasis = torment, which is ECT. So which one are you?

I think my post was not well done, I confused you. Please go to this link and read it for yourself.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2851&t=KJV

kolasis = correction, punishment, penalty

"Torment" is one of the English words used by the translators of the Greek into English but not the Greek definition according to Strong's.


Where do I stand?
Some scriptures appear to mean completely destroyed and others not. So I don't really know for sure.