Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[Chopper]

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with ____?____, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with torture, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

OR?

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with destruction, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

You decide which is more fearful. I say destruction. Why? Because Jesus tells us what to fear:

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to _____?____ both soul and body in hell.

It appears to me my friend, that Matthew is more of a warning from Jesus to His hearers about fearing opposition from the Jewish Leaders, even death of the body, the soul of the believer is safe. On the other hand, they should fear God Who can destroy both body and soul. I don't think the meaning is to focus on what happens after the judgment, but a present warning not to fear what man can do to you.

 

[Butch5]

OK Butch & others. The following has always been my understanding of the word eternal or everlasting. I must say the Doulos had a good argument but after thinking this topic over a lot, I'm inclined to stick to my Baptist Doctrine which is explained in Albert Barnes' quote, by permission of e-Sword.
Into everlasting punishment - The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jo_4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word “everlasting” in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - “always belong,” Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mar_3:29; Rom_2:7; Heb_5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour’s design always to teach this doctrine, this would be “the very word” to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce “fear and terror;” and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. “The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever.”

What say Ye?

Hi Chopper,

I think this is the argument that By Grace was trying to make. I think it is a case of theology driving the interpretation. I see two problems here, one is that the argument is circular reasoning, let me explain. He says that if the eternal in eternal life is eternal then the punishment must be eternal too. That's a logical conclusion. However, the argument assumes that the premise is true. Here is where I think the error is. I don't think "aionios" in eternal life means eternal. The reason I say this is because there are quite a few passages where "aion" cannot be translated forever. Therefore, if "aionios" in eternal life doesn't mean eternal, it doesn't mean eternal in eternal punishment.

I know there's probably going to be some recoil to what I said above so let me explain how I believe this works. As I said in the other post. I believe "aion" should be defined as and unspecified period of time. How long does an unspecified period of time last? It's unspecified, it could be a week, a month, 10 years or it may never end. If as I suggest "aion" doesn't mean eternal then how do we conclude that believers will have eternal life? I believe it comes from the use of "aion" with a superlative. Consider these passages,

17 'These great beasts, that are four, are four kings, they rise up from the earth;
18 and receive the kingdom do the saints of the Most High, and they strengthen the kingdom unto the age, even unto the age of the ages. (Dan 7:17-18 YLT)

YLT Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb:
2 in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, is a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations;
3 and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him,
4 and they shall see His face, and His name is upon their foreheads,
5 and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages. (Rev 22:1-5 YLT)

We see phrases in the Scriptures that would indicate that things will not end as these above. Isaiah said that Christ's kingdom would have no end, that's eternal. Consider this passage from Ephesians.

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph 3:17-21 KJV)

This passage indicates that the church will exist throughout all ages, that is eternal, never ending. Passages such as these tell us that the "aionios" life that is promised to believers is eternal. So, while "aionios" itself may not tell us that the life is eternal but rather an unspecified length of time, these other passages tell us that that unspecified length of time (aionios) is eternal.

That's the only way I can see that we can reconcile the passages that seem to use '"anion" in the sense of eternal with the passages that use it for finite period of time.

The other problem I see with the argument is that they only looked at the New Testamant uses of "aion." I think this is a big problem because many of the passages that speak of eternal fire or eternal punishment are from the Old Testament. The unquenchable fire that Jesus and John the baptist speak of comes from Isaiah among others. Jude says that the fire that burned up Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire. I think it extremely important to look at these Old Testament passages so that we know what the New Testament writers are talking about. They're not just making up new term or giving new ideas, they are looking back to the prophets. I think we need to look back to the prophets also.

 

[jeff77]

This word study is very interesting. It seems that meanings of the words in Greek can have a different meaning than they do in English. Of course the words in English can be used different too. I was looking at the Greek definition of the word destroy which is Apollumi. From what I learned it can also mean lost but not necessarily cease to exist. In fact I am curious what the words or term the Greek language uses for "cease to exist"?

 

[Butch5]

This word study is very interesting. It seems that meanings of the words in Greek can have a different meaning than they do in English. Of course the words in English can be used different too. I was looking at the Greek definition of the word destroy which is Apollumi. From what I learned it can also mean lost but not necessarily cease to exist. In fact I am curious what the words or term the Greek language uses for "cease to exist"?

Hi Jeff,

It is very interesting when you begin to look at the individual words. Sometimes it makes you wonder why the translators chose certain words

 

[Doulos Iesou]

OK Butch & others. The following has always been my understanding of the word eternal or everlasting. I must say the Doulos had a good argument but after thinking this topic over a lot, I'm inclined to stick to my Baptist Doctrine which is explained in Albert Barnes' quote, by permission of e-Sword.
Into everlasting punishment - The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jo_4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word “everlasting” in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - “always belong,” Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mar_3:29; Rom_2:7; Heb_5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour’s design always to teach this doctrine, this would be “the very word” to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce “fear and terror;” and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. “The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever.”

What say Ye?

I'm confused Chopper, it seems like you switched your position back based upon the opinion of one man regarding the meaning of the Greek word "κόλασις."

The word simply means "punishment" and does not denote torment at all. I happen to have loads of ancient Greek words that use this word, and they all simply have the connotation of punishment. What ECT'ers do is insert the idea of torment based upon their doctrine to grant further support, however there is nothing within the word itself that means torment. This is a mistake derived from the KJV.

so under some governments the punishments precede the accusation, and the condemnation prevents the proving of the crime. Under such circumstances,
Plutarch. (1874). Plutarch’s Morals. (Vol. 4, p. 329). Medford, MA: Little, Brown, and Company.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Now the sentence of ostracism was not a chastisement of base practices, nay, it was speciously called a humbling and docking of oppressive prestige and power;
Plutarch. (1914). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[This one would actually support the Universalist understanding, which has the thought not of just punishment but restorative justice; chastisement.]

while from all his punishments he took away the element of insult or vindictive pleasure, and in his acceptance and bestowal of favours appeared no less gracious and kindly to the givers than to the recipients.
Plutarch. (1926). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Many were his memorable achievements in meting out rewards or punishments to those who deserved them, but I shall here describe only that in which both he himself and the chief men of Rome took especial pleasure.
Plutarch. (1918). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Therefore the Argives are said to have punished deviation from the ancient music, and to have imposed a fine upon such as first adventured to play with more than seven strings, and to introduce the Mixolydian mood.
Pseudo-Plutarch. (1874). Plutarch’s Morals. (Vol. 1, p. 130). Medford, MA: Little, Brown, and Company.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

I have 206 examples in my Logos of this Greek used in ancient Greek literature, and by studying the whole of how the word is used we understand that it means simply "the act of inflicting punishment."

Hope this helps,
DI

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This word study is very interesting. It seems that meanings of the words in Greek can have a different meaning than they do in English. Of course the words in English can be used different too. I was looking at the Greek definition of the word destroy which is Apollumi. From what I learned it can also mean lost but not necessarily cease to exist. In fact I am curious what the words or term the Greek language uses for "cease to exist"?

Question for you, in the English language, what is the definition of the word destroy?

 

[agua.]

Hi Chopper,

I think this is the argument that By Grace was trying to make. I think it is a case of theology driving the interpretation. I see two problems here, one is that the argument is circular reasoning, let me explain. He says that if the eternal in eternal life is eternal then the punishment must be eternal too. That's a logical conclusion. However, the argument assumes that the premise is true. Here is where I think the error is. I don't think "aionios" in eternal life means eternal. The reason I say this is because there are quite a few passages where "aion" cannot be translated forever. Therefore, if "aionios" in eternal life doesn't mean eternal, it doesn't mean eternal in eternal punishment.

I know there's probably going to be some recoil to what I said above so let me explain how I believe this works. As I said in the other post. I believe "aion" should be defined as and unspecified period of time. How long does an unspecified period of time last? It's unspecified, it could be a week, a month, 10 years or it may never end. If as I suggest "aion" doesn't mean eternal then how do we conclude that believers will have eternal life? I believe it comes from the use of "aion" with a superlative. Consider these passages,

17 'These great beasts, that are four, are four kings, they rise up from the earth;
18 and receive the kingdom do the saints of the Most High, and they strengthen the kingdom unto the age, even unto the age of the ages. (Dan 7:17-18 YLT)

YLT Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb:
2 in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, is a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations;
3 and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him,
4 and they shall see His face, and His name is upon their foreheads,
5 and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages. (Rev 22:1-5 YLT)

We see phrases in the Scriptures that would indicate that things will not end as these above. Isaiah said that Christ's kingdom would have no end, that's eternal. Consider this passage from Ephesians.

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph 3:17-21 KJV)

This passage indicates that the church will exist throughout all ages, that is eternal, never ending. Passages such as these tell us that the "aionios" life that is promised to believers is eternal. So, while "aionios" itself may not tell us that the life is eternal but rather an unspecified length of time, these other passages tell us that that unspecified length of time (aionios) is eternal.

That's the only way I can see that we can reconcile the passages that seem to use '"anion" in the sense of eternal with the passages that use it for finite period of time.

The other problem I see with the argument is that they only looked at the New Testamant uses of "aion." I think this is a big problem because many of the passages that speak of eternal fire or eternal punishment are from the Old Testament. The unquenchable fire that Jesus and John the baptist speak of comes from Isaiah among others. Jude says that the fire that burned up Sodom and Gomorrah are an example of eternal fire. I think it extremely important to look at these Old Testament passages so that we know what the New Testament writers are talking about. They're not just making up new term or giving new ideas, they are looking back to the prophets. I think we need to look back to the prophets also.

Butch I've been following your posts showing that aion/aionios doesn't mean never ending everywhere they're used and I have a question about the places where eternal is used to juxtapose the fate of the righteous against the wicked. Is it possible in these instances it does mean never ending for both as in Matt 25:46 with the distinction being that the fate of the wicked has eternal consequence ? ie. eternal destruction means there's no return.

 

[Chopper]

I'm confused Chopper, it seems like you switched your position back based upon the opinion of one man regarding the meaning of the Greek word "κόλασις."

The word simply means "punishment" and does not denote torment at all. I happen to have loads of ancient Greek words that use this word, and they all simply have the connotation of punishment. What ECT'ers do is insert the idea of torment based upon their doctrine to grant further support, however there is nothing within the word itself that means torment. This is a mistake derived from the KJV.

so under some governments the punishments precede the accusation, and the condemnation prevents the proving of the crime. Under such circumstances,
Plutarch. (1874). Plutarch’s Morals. (Vol. 4, p. 329). Medford, MA: Little, Brown, and Company.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Now the sentence of ostracism was not a chastisement of base practices, nay, it was speciously called a humbling and docking of oppressive prestige and power;
Plutarch. (1914). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[This one would actually support the Universalist understanding, which has the thought not of just punishment but restorative justice; chastisement.]

while from all his punishments he took away the element of insult or vindictive pleasure, and in his acceptance and bestowal of favours appeared no less gracious and kindly to the givers than to the recipients.
Plutarch. (1926). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Many were his memorable achievements in meting out rewards or punishments to those who deserved them, but I shall here describe only that in which both he himself and the chief men of Rome took especial pleasure.
Plutarch. (1918). Plutarch’s Lives. (B. Perrin, Ed.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

Therefore the Argives are said to have punished deviation from the ancient music, and to have imposed a fine upon such as first adventured to play with more than seven strings, and to introduce the Mixolydian mood.
Pseudo-Plutarch. (1874). Plutarch’s Morals. (Vol. 1, p. 130). Medford, MA: Little, Brown, and Company.
[No notion of torment, simply punishment.]

I have 206 examples in my Logos of this Greek used in ancient Greek literature, and by studying the whole of how the word is used we understand that it means simply "the act of inflicting punishment."

Hope this helps,
DI

I am still open for the truth. I myself am doing a word study. I decided to go back to what I've always believed as a point of stability. Based on your instructions and others I am going to jump into this thread with both feet. Physically, I am feeling better, my mind is getting sharp once more and I'm ready to do some serious research on my own. So, the story has not ceased.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I am still open for the truth. I myself am doing a word study. I decided to go back to what I've always believed as a point of stability. Based on your instructions and others I am going to jump into this thread with both feet. Physically, I am feeling better, my mind is getting sharp once more and I'm ready to do some serious research on my own. So, the story has not ceased.

That is totally agreeable, I personally took a good amount of time studying on my own before I made the decision.

I will try to make myself available for any questions you may have.

 

[Deborah13]

Butch I've been following your posts showing that aion/aionios doesn't mean never ending everywhere they're used and I have a question about the places where eternal is used to juxtapose the fate of the righteous against the wicked. Is it possible in these instances it does mean never ending for both as in Matt 25:46 with the distinction being that the fate of the wicked has eternal consequence ? ie. eternal destruction means there's no return.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Context determines the definition of the word. This word being relative to time and may even be that that time is determined by circumstance/s requires determining use in context I would think.
The only qualifier I see for this 'eternal', is belief.

I also think the use of 'everlasting' in Matt. is incorrect transliteration it should be 'eternal'. There is no reason to use two different words in English when the same word is used in the Greek.
Vine's says this,
"
Vine's
"[ 2,,G126, aidios ]
denotes everlasting" (from aei, "ever"), Romans 1:20, RV, "everlasting," for AV, "eternal;" Jude 1:6, AV and RV "everlasting." Aionios, should always be translated "eternal" and aidios, "everlasting." "While aionios ... negatives the end either of a space of time or of unmeasured time, and is used chiefly where something future is spoken of, aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer)."

'aidios' is used when speaking of God being 'everlasting'.

 

[Deborah13]

I am still open for the truth. I myself am doing a word study. I decided to go back to what I've always believed as a point of stability. Based on your instructions and others I am going to jump into this thread with both feet. Physically, I am feeling better, my mind is getting sharp once more and I'm ready to do some serious research on my own. So, the story has not ceased.

So happy you are feeling better!

 

[Chopper]

That is totally agreeable, I personally took a good amount of time studying on my own before I made the decision.

I will try to make myself available for any questions you may have.

Thank you my trusted friend. I will be going over your posts some, and looking for those nuggets.

 

[Chopper]

So happy you are feeling better!

Thanks Hon!

 

[JLB]

Doulos Iesou said -


Position #2 (the one I do support)
That the straight-forward interpretation of this passage is ill-advised. Now is this just a rejection of the literal approach for my own purposes, or is there justification for such a position? Well, the book of Revelation is Apocalyptic literature which contains a lot of symbolic and metaphorical language as it did in the Old Testament. Much of the response to liberalism has since over-emphasized the need to literally interpret the Bible, even when proper hermeneutics dictate that we shouldn't.

My question then, is if there are any instances of this imagery being used else where that indicates a metaphorical interpretation? You'll find the answer and the evidence interesting I hope.

Going back to the OT Apocalyptic literature, we find Isaiah prophesying the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34, where he writes.

And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch,
and her soil into sulfur;
her land shall become burning pitch.
Night and day it shall not be quenched;
its smoke shall go up forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
none shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:9-10 (ESV)

And now compare to Revelation 14:10-11

he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Revelation 14:10-11 (ESV)

Now, in Edom it said that the smoke from it shall rise forever. Does it still rise forever today? No.
It said that it will always lie waste. Does it still lie in waste today? No.
It said that none will ever pass through it. Does anyone pass through it today? Yes, there is a highway where ancient Edom was.

Now if we understand this imagery literally, we come to see that this didn't actually happen. Unless like many other prophecies this imagery is hyperbole to speak about the permanent destruction of Edom. Therefore, as this imagery is employed elsewhere as hyperbole to describe permanent destruction, I view the texts in Revelation 14 and Revelation 20 in this Hebriac way.

This event has not taken place yet as it points to the Day of the Lord when He returns to take vengeance upon the enemies of God.

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. 6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. 7 The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness." 8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever. 11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it, Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. And He shall stretch out over it The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call its nobles to the kingdom, But none shall be there, and all its princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in its palaces, Nettles and brambles in its fortresses; It shall be a habitation of jackals, A courtyard for ostriches. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the jackals, And the wild goat shall bleat to its companion; Also the night creature shall rest there, And find for herself a place of rest. 15 There the arrow snake shall make her nest and lay eggs And hatch, and gather them under her shadow; There also shall the hawks be gathered, Every one with her mate. 16 "Search from the book of the Lord, and read: Not one of these shall fail; Not one shall lack her mate. For My mouth has commanded it, and His Spirit has gathered them. 17 He has cast the lot for them, And His hand has divided it among them with a measuring line. They shall possess it forever; From generation to generation they shall dwell in it." Isaiah 34:5-17

This language is also used in Revelation:

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:15-20



... Its land shall become burning pitch.

Compare with - 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The prophecy of Isaiah 34 is yet to come!


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This event has not taken place yet as it points to the Day of the Lord when He returns to take vengeance upon the enemies of God.

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. 6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. 7 The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness." 8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever. 11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it, Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. And He shall stretch out over it The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call its nobles to the kingdom, But none shall be there, and all its princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in its palaces, Nettles and brambles in its fortresses; It shall be a habitation of jackals, A courtyard for ostriches. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the jackals, And the wild goat shall bleat to its companion; Also the night creature shall rest there, And find for herself a place of rest. 15 There the arrow snake shall make her nest and lay eggs And hatch, and gather them under her shadow; There also shall the hawks be gathered, Every one with her mate. 16 "Search from the book of the Lord, and read: Not one of these shall fail; Not one shall lack her mate. For My mouth has commanded it, and His Spirit has gathered them. 17 He has cast the lot for them, And His hand has divided it among them with a measuring line. They shall possess it forever; From generation to generation they shall dwell in it." Isaiah 34:5-17

This language is also used in Revelation:

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:15-20



... Its land shall become burning pitch.

Compare with - 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


The prophecy of Isaiah 34 is yet to come!


JLB

Actually, it has already been fulfilled. What happened to Edom?

 

[JLB]

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations... Revelation 19:15

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment...

This is a reference to the day of vengeance.


Isaiah speaks of this day again -

1 "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, And the day of vengeance of our God;...

The day of vengeance part of this prophecy has not happened yet.

It is a vengeance that the Lord will mete out Himself as he tramples the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

That day has not yet come.

Sword bathed in heaven is a reference to this Day and time.

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment...


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations... Revelation 19:15

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment...

This is a reference to the day of vengeance.


Isaiah speaks of this day again -

1 "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, And the day of vengeance of our God;...

The day of vengeance part of this prophecy has not happened yet.

It is a vengeance that the Lord will mete out Himself as he tramples the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

That day has not yet come.

Sword bathed in heaven is a reference to this Day and time.

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment...


JLB

What happened to the nation of Edom JLB?

 

[Butch5]

Butch I've been following your posts showing that aion/aionios doesn't mean never ending everywhere they're used and I have a question about the places where eternal is used to juxtapose the fate of the righteous against the wicked. Is it possible in these instances it does mean never ending for both as in Matt 25:46 with the distinction being that the fate of the wicked has eternal consequence ? ie. eternal destruction means there's no return.

Hi Agua,

I agree with your conclusion that the fate of the wicked is permanent destruction, but, I don't see how we can define "aionios" as eternal anywhere. I think if we do that we create a conflict with other passages of Scripture. Let me explain, if we say that in Mathew "aionios" (which is the adjective form of aion) means eternal and we say that "aionion" is a limited period of time that came to an end in Ex 28:42-43, we're essentially said the word means eternal and not eternal. If the word means eternal and not eternal how do we determine where it means eternal and where it doesn't mean eternal? You see I think this is how theology drives the interpretation. If it can mean eternal and not eternal then we can pick where we want to say it means eternal based on what we believe. If I believe in ECT then I can say that Rev 20:10 says the beast, the false prophet and the Devil will be tormented for eternity, however, if I believe in CI and translate it as a period of time and say that it will end. I believe that word "aion" is translated correctly as an age. I don't understand why the translators would change the meaning of the word simply because it's used as an adjective.

To address Mathew 25 specifically, I do think the punishment is eternal because it's contrasted with those going into the Kingdom and Scripture tells us that the kingdom will have no end. The phrase, "will have no end" means eternal. The life that is given to the believer is eternal, not because it's called aionios life, but rather because Jesus said that sons of the resurrection die no more.

35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
(Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)

"Nor can they die anymore", that is eternal life.

It's a fine line that I'm trying to draw here but I think it is a very important one if we are going to grasp the Scriptures correctly. Let me reiterate that while I say I don't believe that "aionios" can rightly be defined as eternal that doesn't mean that an "aionios" time can't be eternal. Does that make sense? Aionios time is unspecified, as such it can refer to any period of time, it just isn't specified. If we define aionios as eternity then we have just given it a meaning of definite time, eternity. If it means eternity then it can't mean a month or a year or 10 years, it has to mean eternity. If that is the case then we have to do as the English translators have done and say that the ordinances in the Mosaic Law are eternal ordinances. If we do that then we must conclude that the Old Covenant is still in effect and will be for eternity. We must also conclude that Paul was mistaken when he said that the Mosaic Law had come to an end. Jesus said that He had come to complete the Law, one must conclude that this is not the case either.

I don't see any reason that aionios should be translated as eternal, it's not necessary to do so to show that believers have eternal life. And, by doing so they create a situation where an incorrect reading is read back into other passages. I believe this is the case with Rev 20:10. Since translators have defined aionios as eternal because it speaks of the age to come, the word eternal is then read back into verses like Rev 20:10 and then we have doctrines like ECT come into being because eternity is read back into aionios.

Does that make sense? It's a little difficult to explain it all in a post.

 

[chessman]

With respect to Matt:10:28, you said:

It appears to me my friend, that Matthew is more of a warning from Jesus to His hearers about fearing opposition from the Jewish Leaders, even death of the body, the soul of the believer is safe. On the other hand, they should fear God Who can destroy both body and soul. I don't think the meaning is to focus on what happens after the judgment, but a present warning not to fear what man can do to you.

If the focus was not what happens after the judgment, then why do you think Jesus mentions Hell?

 

[JLB]

What happened to the nation of Edom JLB?

The prophecy in Isaiah 34 is future, when the Lord returns and strikes the nations with the sword of His mouth.

It is not just about Edom, but all the nations [people] that are cursed and will suffer his vengeance. People of the flesh!

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment...

This is a reference to the day of vengeance.

Edom is a prophetic symbol of the world, the flesh that which is cursed.

Esau is "hated' by the Lord.


JLB