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Bible Study Conditional Immortality

Of course it is!
But there is NADA in the OT written in Arabic. The OT was written entirely in Hebrew, excepting chapters 1-7 in Daniel

I changed the post after realizing I had typed Arabic instead of Aramaic. It was a simple mistake not the end of the world.


The same error asin the first post was repeated

That doesn't help me. I simply cut and pasted it how can that be inaccurate?



I am glad that you appreciate that. I am also NOT attempting to mislead you or "convert" you. What I am doing is to give you and others tool to help you come to an understanding.

I can also do the same thing with the OT as I did to the NT, but I doubt that it will mean anything to you becau7se the focus of the meaning of "forever" has been on verses from the NT, and not the OT.

I don't think it's necessary that we post every verse in the OT. We have seen passages where "Aion" would appear to be eternal and in verses where it clearly isn't eternal. I don't believe it can be both and you agreed.

I added to the other post a question. In your post about "forever" you said this,

"If you do not want to read all 71 of them in 69 verses, the take-away is this: FOREVER ALWAYS MEANS FOREVER."

On what did you base that conclusion?
 
"There is no part of the Old Testament that was ever written in Arabic. Chapters 1-7 of Daniel are written in Aramaic."

OK, edited


Can you tell me what I quoted inaccurately? What I posted from Kittle was cut and pasted so I don't know how it could be inaccurate. I didn't make any claims about what it was other than to say I found some background info to consider.
What you claimed as a quote from Kittle was in fact a big error.


I'd like to ask a question if I may, you said they all mean eternal, what did you base that conclusion on?

Not all of them, I made that clear in my post, and I posted this graphic from Logos 5:
index.php

Then I made a list of every NT verse that had "eternal" in Greek in it.
After that I switched to the ESV so I could make a list of the same verses in English.

I did not translate those verses if that is what you are getting at.
 
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What you claimed as a quote from Kittle was in fact a big error.

I'm not sure what you see as error, it was cut and pasted from Kittle's TDNT.

Not all of them, I made that clear in my post, and I posted this graphic from Logos 5:
index.php

Then I made a list of every NT verse that had "eternal" in Greek in it.
After that I switched to the ESV so I could make a list of the same verses in English.

OK, if "aionios" cannot have opposing definitions, eternal and not eternal, then how can not all of them mean eternal if "aionios" means eternal? I don't see how that can work.

I did not translate those verses if that is what you are getting at.

I'm not getting at anything, I'm wondering what the basis was for your conclusion that "aionios" means eternal.

I gave the basis for my conclusion that it doesn't mean eternal, I went to the Scriptures and presented several passage where the word "aion" cannot possible be translated as eternal and be correct. I then explained how I believe that a better definition "time unspecified" could be used of a specific period of time and could also be used of something eternal.
 
Edited Address issues not persons


OK, if "aionios" cannot have opposing definitions, eternal and not eternal, then how can not all of them mean eternal if "aionios" means eternal? I don't see how that can work.
I then explained how I believe that a better definition "time unspecified" could be used of a specific period of time and could also be used of something eternal.

That graphic does not give you that choice, PLUS in order to render that word as you would do it, you need to establish several things:
1) that it is translated that way in other Greek literature
2) you need to prove that the same Greek grammar for which you rendered something "time unspecific" in other Greek works is found in the Bible
3) you need to establish that the context of both necessitates that translation

Those are three gigantic hurdles
Oh, yes, you have to establish yourself as a well-known Greek scholar. first.

Seriously, from this monitor it looks as if you are grasping at straws to prove that the Bible does not say what it really says.
 
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Edited reply to deleted remark reba

You have Kittle's work look and see if it says what I pasted.

That graphic does not give you that choice, PLUS in order to render that word as you would do it, you need to establish several things:
1) that it is translated that way in other Greek literature
2) you need to prove that the same Greek grammar for which you rendered something "time unspecific" in other Greek works is found in the Bible
3) you need to establish that the context of both necessitates that translation

Those are three gigantic hurdles
Oh, yes, you have to establish yourself as a well-known Greek scholar. first.

Seriously, from this monitor it looks as if you are grasping at straws to prove that the Bible does not say what it really says.

I have to be a Greek scholar to see what is an obvious contradiction?

I've asked what the basis of your conclusion is twice now and you've not given it. Thanks for your input.
 
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I do not understand why the topic can not be discussed civilly.
We have the option to put members on read only... we are trying not to over moderate .. you guys are trying me...
Something learned over the last few years is many members will be offensive in hopes of shutting down a topic/thread.
Read only tool.. can be helpful...
If i start editing the reading of resulting post is on the poster not the moderator.,,

Our Bible Study area seeks to grow as a God honoring, Jesus proclaiming, Holy Spirit led, Word-driven forum which dedicates itself to the glory of God. God is gathering us from all nations to worship Him. Therefore we will be involved in studying His word that we may plant His seed in love.

The Holy Scriptures will be treated as such. Zero tolerance for breaks of the ToS. The OP will set the tone of the thread/study. We are expecting members to be aware of the fine line between discussion and argument. Please feel free to open a new thread and avoid the battle.

"This forum is intended for cooperative discussion about scripture within God's Word. It is not an appropriate place to discuss versions of it or argue that certain versions are invalid."

"There is a forum for [ blogs] if members are not interested in discussion."
 
11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8:11-12

Notice in this verse it says the sons of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness...

again -

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:49-50


Jesus plainly says: they will be cast into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

... wailing and gnashing of teeth is associated with pain and discomfort, and those who are conscience to experience that pain.

Please consider these scriptures in this study.


JLB

Consider them considered JLB. It should have been a wake up call to the hard hearted Jews when Jesus told them Gentiles would be entering the Kingdom ahead of them eh.

There will be extreme pain involved in the punishment of the wicked at the end of the world as we know it for sure and you certainly must be conscious to experience it.

Mat 13:49 KJV So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
 
I do not understand why the topic can not be discussed civilly.
We have the option to put members on read only... we are trying not to over moderate .. you guys are trying me...
Something learned over the last few years is many members will be offensive in hopes of shutting down a topic/thread.
Read only tool.. can be helpful...
If i start editing the reading of resulting post is on the poster not the moderator.,,

Our Bible Study area seeks to grow as a God honoring, Jesus proclaiming, Holy Spirit led, Word-driven forum which dedicates itself to the glory of God. God is gathering us from all nations to worship Him. Therefore we will be involved in studying His word that we may plant His seed in love.

The Holy Scriptures will be treated as such. Zero tolerance for breaks of the ToS. The OP will set the tone of the thread/study. We are expecting members to be aware of the fine line between discussion and argument. Please feel free to open a new thread and avoid the battle.

"This forum is intended for cooperative discussion about scripture within God's Word. It is not an appropriate place to discuss versions of it or argue that certain versions are invalid."

"There is a forum for [ blogs] if members are not interested in discussion."

All I can say in response is I am sorry, I tried, but my buttons got pushed, and I reacted from exasperation.

I cited so many authoritative sources, and provided a list of EVERY verse in the NT which had that word. Then I provided a graphic which showed that over 90% (a guess) of the time where the word was translated "eternal" and that the remaining 9% had other, similar translations; none of which were contrary from the essential meaning of "eternal".

I should have stopped there, but I didn't, and I regret that I responded in a way that seemed engendered more attempts to establish other, contrary-to-fact situations.

I stop here. No longer will I reply to this thread because I am deleting my subscription. Others may respond but I can not respond to what I can not see.

Good day y'all
 
Hey guys, Reba has been more than patient with the jabs here and there. In reading these posts, I see no reason for this thread to continue. It seems to me that you all have expressed your position very clearly, and obviously minds are not being changed. If you feel that to continue on would be fruitless, lets close the thread. If you continue, Reba and I will not tolerate previous behavior.
 
Hey guys, Reba has been more than patient with the jabs here and there. In reading these posts, I see no reason for this thread to continue. It seems to me that you all have expressed your position very clearly, and obviously minds are not being changed. If you feel that to continue on would be fruitless, lets close the thread. If you continue, Reba and I will not tolerate previous behavior.

I'm trying to learn something here. I don't want to just hear positions. I want to hear Why they have the position that they do and I think those are the things that we are looking at.
I don't think this has been fully presented.
I think that Butch5 and @agua are presenting definitions of words from scriptures and we are getting some good thoughts going why would we stop now?
What does the word for 'age' mean? Is it different when it is defined by a certain time period?
What does it mean when it says 'forever in your generations'? Do covenants have anything to do with the meaning of 'forever'? What about the Mosaic Covenant, when it says 'forever'?

There are many, many things to look at from the scriptures already presented. Have we done that?
It seems to me that as of right now we are in the middle of that 'can of worms'. I'd like to dig deeper so that I can have some kind of peace about this in my heart that I have done my best to understand the Lord's words.
But it's not my thread so it's up to Butch5.

I'm not saying that the moderators have to leave it open if things are not done by the ToS rules. But seeing one problem has been resolved to restore order maybe you could give this thread another chance? :nod
 
Listen, If this thread can continue with facts from Scripture rather than idea's of men, certainly the thread can continue. Good thoughts based on Scripture is what needs to be presented. No childish bantering back and forth. Real Christians don't do that. So, please continue with that in mind. Deb, I appreciate your wanting good Biblical information, and you are the reason, as a Mod. that I can see that it could stay open. Please note that both Reba and I will be following the course of this thread very carefully. I too am interested in what can be presented, so GO FOR IT guys and gal, have fun!
 
I would also like to apologize as it seems I'm the one that frustrated By Grace. That was not my intention and I thought I was being genuine, I'm sorry it didn't come across that way.
 
I would also like to apologize as it seems I'm the one that frustrated By Grace. That was not my intention and I thought I was being genuine, I'm sorry it didn't come across that way.

Thank you Butch! I like you very much, and am glad you want to remain involved in this thread. I'm looking forward to your instruction.:hug
 
OK Butch & others. The following has always been my understanding of the word eternal or everlasting. I must say the Doulos had a good argument but after thinking this topic over a lot, I'm inclined to stick to my Baptist Doctrine which is explained in Albert Barnes' quote, by permission of e-Sword.
Into everlasting punishment - The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jo_4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word “everlasting” in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - “always belong,” Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mar_3:29; Rom_2:7; Heb_5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour’s design always to teach this doctrine, this would be “the very word” to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce “fear and terror;” and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. “The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever.”

What say Ye?
 
OK Butch & others. The following has always been my understanding of the word eternal or everlasting. I must say the Doulos had a good argument but after thinking this topic over a lot, I'm inclined to stick to my Baptist Doctrine which is explained in Albert Barnes' quote, by permission of e-Sword.
Into everlasting punishment - The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jo_4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word “everlasting” in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - “always belong,” Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mar_3:29; Rom_2:7; Heb_5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour’s design always to teach this doctrine, this would be “the very word” to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce “fear and terror;” and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. “The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever.”

What say Ye?

Very Sound.

Good post.

Thanks for sharing.


JLB
 
Thanks Chop for presenting the argument for aionios always meaning an unending period of time. I think we can accept this but also allow that the punishment for the wicked will be unending in that there will be no return etc. I consider eternal damnation is a never ending punishment in that there is no restoration from it once the wicked are annihilated/ second death.

Butch has made some interesting comparisons with aion/ ainios/ olam which do show us that the words have been used to describe things that did end and I find this interesting too.
 
I have found this topic most interesting in that my emotions rose up when I considered that a God Who does not torture people would not do the same to the unrighteous for eternity. I'm afraid that I let my emotions rule over plain Greek and Hebrew words which is final, in my book. So, there you go!
 
Chop I think you're right that we should keep our emotional response to this issue separate. The thing that is most important is the consistency of the doctrine with the whole of scripture and earlier I think Deb pointed out the usual way and reasons Yahweh punishes/disciplines shown in the OT in the Annihilation thread I think ( oh boy can't remember :D ). This then also raises the logical discussion from both doctrines.

I've never been bothered by ECT being unfair or unjust ect because Yahweh can do whatever He pleases. Plus I'm a little unemotional sometimes :D
 
OK Butch & others. The following has always been my understanding of the word eternal or everlasting. I must say the Doulos had a good argument but after thinking this topic over a lot, I'm inclined to stick to my Baptist Doctrine which is explained in Albert Barnes' quote, by permission of e-Sword.
Into everlasting punishment - The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1Jo_4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Act_4:21; 2Pe_2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. It does not mean simply a “state or condition,” but absolute, positive suffering; and if this word does not teach it, no word “could” express the idea that the wicked would suffer. It has been contended that the sufferings of the wicked will not be eternal or without end. It is not the purpose of these notes to enter into debates of that kind further than to ascertain the meaning of the language used by the sacred writers. In regard to the meaning of the word “everlasting” in this place, it is to be observed:
1. that the literal meaning of the word expresses absolute eternity - “always belong,” Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mar_3:29; Rom_2:7; Heb_5:9.
2. that the obvious and plain interpretation of the word demands this signification in this place. The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment - Owen, in loc.
3. that, admitting that it was the Saviour’s design always to teach this doctrine, this would be “the very word” to express it; and if this does not teach it, it could not be taught.
4. that it is not taught in any plainer manner in any confession of faith on the globe; and if this may be explained away, all those may be.
5. that our Saviour knew that this would be so understood by nine-tenths of the world; and if he did not mean to teach it, he has knowingly led them into error, and his honesty cannot be vindicated.
6. that he knew that the doctrine was calculated to produce “fear and terror;” and if he was benevolent, and actually used language calculated to produce this fear and terror, his conduct cannot be vindicated in exciting unnecessary alarms.
7. that the word used here is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. “The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the wicked will, be miserable forever.”

What say Ye?

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with ____?____, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with torture, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

OR?

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with destruction, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

You decide which is more fearful. I say destruction. Why? Because Jesus tells us what to fear:

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to _____?____ both soul and body in hell.
 
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