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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study Conditional Immortality
- Thread starter Doulos Iesou
- Start date
A
agua.
Guest
Yeah I agree Butch Paul did believe in CI. Saints asleep in Christ will live again at the resurrection as will Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Mat 22:31-32 KJV But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, (32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Their body will live again at the resurrection.
Their spirit, that is, they themselves, are with Jesus in heaven awaiting His return when He gathers His people at the resurrection.
For they will return with Him.
1 Thessalonians 4;14
Revelation 19
Zechariah 14
JLB
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Butch5
Member
Butch5
Member
Did Jesus believe in Ci? According to His statement it seems He didn't believe that man was a spirit in a flesh body. I posted this in the, Body, Soul, Spirit, thread but think it's a very important passage.
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Luk 24:37-39 NKJ)
It seems Jesus is saying He's not a spirit but a man.
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Luk 24:37-39 NKJ)
It seems Jesus is saying He's not a spirit but a man.
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I agree, He is a Man, with a Glorified Immortal Body.
Not just a Spirit, but a complete Man, Spirit, Soul and Body.
Jesus is not a disembodied spirit without a body, but a Man.
I believe it is important to understand this truth.
JLB
A
agua.
Guest
Butch when we think about the type of Body Jesus had between resurrection and ascension how do we reconcile that He appeared to the disciples by seemingly walking through walls as some think.
Joh 20:19 KJV Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Also can you explain when the transformation from flesh being to Spirit Being happened ?
Butch5
Member
Hi Agua,
I think we may be assuming Jesus walked through the wall. It could be that He knocked on the door and came in.
I don't believe there is a transformation to a spiritual being. Am I misunderstanding you?
A
agua.
Guest
I assume also He could have walked through the door but possibly He appeared "miraculously" in the same way He may have evaded being captured a few times. imo
What did Jesus become after He ascended ?
Butch5
Member
Hi Agua,
It's possible the text doesn't say. I don't think Jesus became anything, I believe He is the same as when He resurrected.
A
agua.
Guest
Ok Butch. We're told He became a "life quickening spirit" etc. Considering Jesus ascended into Heaven and is alive today ( I think we agree on this ) what's the difference between the resurrected body and the flesh body. Are you saying the resurrected Body can live in a non material place ?
Butch5
Member
The first Adam became a living soul the second Adam a life giving breath. In the context of the resurrection it is Christ who determines who gets raised to life.
A
agua.
Guest
Yes I agree. I'm also asking about where Jesus is now and if the resurrected Body that he had here on Earth, and we will receive when He returns, can live outside of the Earth. I suppose I shouldn't assume what you believe could you clear a couple of things up for me mate.
1. Do you believe Jesus is alive today ?
2. Is Jesus in Heaven today ?
3. If Jesus is alive today does He have the same Body He was resurrected with ?
4. If all the above are "yes" does this mean you think a physical flesh body can live in a non material place ?
Butch5
Member
Hi Agua,
I would say yes to one and three. Concerning number 2, I'm not sure what Heaven means, is it some place far away, is it another dimension, I don't know. To answer you're final question, can a physical flesh body live in a non material place, I don't know. However, I would ask, is Heaven a non material place? I think when we think if spiritual things we automatically assume non material, however, I'm not sure that is the case. Consider Paul's words,
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (1Co 2:14-15 KJV)
It seems clear to me from the context that Paul is speaking of a physical person yet refers to him as spiritual. Spiritual is an adjective, it means having qualities of the spirit. I don't think these things have to be immaterial. Paul said,
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1Co 15:42-44 KJV)
We have Jesus as a picture of this. We know His resurrected body was physical as He said it was flesh and bone, yet according to Paul the resurrected body is spiritual. I would surmise that Paul means the resurrected body has qualities of the spirit. So, I'm not sure if Heaven is non material.
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A
agua.
Guest
Ah ok Butch. I think when Paul talks about our resurrected bodies he knows we will be residing on Earth don't you think ? When Jesus appeared to Paul do you believe He was still in his resurrected Body ?
Act 9:3-4 KJV And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: (4) And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:3-4 KJV And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: (4) And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Butch5
Member
HI Agua,
Yes, I believe Paul knew well that we will be residing on Earth. He states in Romans 8 that the creation will be delivered from the curse into the liberty of the sons of God. I believe Jesus was in Hi resurrected body when He appeared to Paul, however, whether or not Paul actually saw Him, I don't know.
John says,
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1Jo 4:2 KJV)
The Greek word translated "come" is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense indicates a past action whose result continues to the present. This means that Jesus was in the flesh when John wrote this. This was long after the resurrection and according to John Jesus was in the flesh. This is one of the reasons I say He is still in His resurrected body. Also when He was taken up the angels said you will see Him come as He left.
KJV Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Act 1:11 KJV)
They saw Him taken up in His resurrected body and according to the angels He's coming back in like manner.
A
agua.
Guest
I don't see any way we can assume Jesus was in His resurrected Body here Butch. Do you have a reason Jesus didn't appear visibly to Paul ?
Act 9:3-7 KJV And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: (4) And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? (5) And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. (6) And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. (7) And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Interesting Butch. When we see Jesus return we will also see the resurrected Saints with Him who will have only at that instant clothed ( put on ) their spiritual/ new body. What I'm saying is that because Jesus left, and will return, clothed with His resurrected Body this doesn't necessarily imply He's permanently in that form. Can you show me where you found the word "come" (erchomai) from mate ?
G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι
Doesn't present imperfect imply something that happened in the past will happen again depending on the modal verb ? In this case we have "come" modified by "shall so" ( houto )
G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
Since it's describing a future the verb houto modifies erchomai to represent an event which did happen in the past and will happen again imo.
In John 4:2 there isn't a modal verb in the text and so it can describe an event that happened once. Remember though that when we talk about Jesus coming in the flesh we also understand this event has future/ habitual implications ie. He did and will again.
In the instances when Heavenly beings came to Earth in the form of men do you believe they kept that form when they returned to Heaven?
Butch5
Member
Hi Agua,
According to John when he wrote his 1st epistle Jesus was still in the flesh. At that point He had already resurrected and ascended to the Father. John wrote many years after Jesus had appeared to Paul. As I understand the perfect tense, it means that an event happened in the past and the results of that event have continued until the present, in this case when John wrote the epistle. It would seem to me that this requires that once Jesus came in the flesh (at birth) he remained in the flesh at least until the time that John wrote. If there was a time that He wasn't in the flesh then the perfect tense couldn't be used in this instance.
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1Jo 4:3 KJV)
In 1 John 4:3 the word come is in the perfect tense. According to this I don't see how He could be in anything else.
Also, If Jesus became a man then He is according to Gen 2:7 a body and the breath of God. If not in His resurrected body how does He exist and what is He?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I was referring to 1 John 4:2 when I said that "come" is in the perfect tense.
Probably not as Scripture doesn't say they became flesh.
Deborah13
Member
I think that the perfect tense denotes something that was done and does not have to be repeated. "It is finished" is in the perfect tense. So I agree with you on that point.
However this is not just the one verb 'come' it is a phrase 'is come'. The mood in this case is in the Participle mood which in English would be like adding 'ing' or 'ed' to the verb. In this case, 'coming' or 'comed'. Making the translation more clearly 'came' or 'has come'.
I'm don't read Greek but I use tools like http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=4&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1163002 and http://ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/grkindex.htm .
What do you think?
Butch5
Member
Hi Deb,
Here is Daniel Wallace's introduction to the perfect tense in "Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics"
I. The Perfect Tense
Introduction
Although this section on the perfect tense will be brief, one must not assume that the length of discussion corresponds to the significance of the topic. We are brief because the primary uses of the perfect are fairly easy to comprehend, though they are not insignificant. As Moulton points out, the perfect tense is “the most important, exegetically, of all the Greek Tenses.”2 The perfect is used less frequently than the present, aorist, future, or imperfect; when it is used, there is usually a deliberate choice on the part of the writer.3
Definition
The force of the perfect tense is simply that it describes an event that, completed in the past (we are speaking of the perfect indicative here), has results existing in the present time (i.e., in relation to the time of the speaker). Or, as Zerwick puts it, the perfect tense is used for “indicating not the past action as such but the present ‘state of affairs’ resulting from the past action.”4
BDF suggest that the perfect tense “combines in itself, so to speak, the present and the aorist in that it denotes the continuance of completed action. . . .”5
574
Chamberlain goes too far when he suggests that the perfect sometimes is used to “describe an act that has abiding results.”6 The implication that “the perfect tells you that the event occurred and still has significant results”7 goes beyond grammar and is therefore misleading. Even more misleading is the notion, frequently found in commentaries, that the perfect tense denotes permanent or eternal results. Such a statement is akin to saying the aorist tense means “once-for-all.” Implications of this sort are to be drawn from considerations that are other than grammatical in nature. One must be careful not to read his or her theology into the syntax whenever it is convenient.