Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[His_nee (Jeff)]

That's more along the lines of what I was wondering.

How to Enjoy God's Word by e.w.bullinger is pretty good reading.

(un?)like all these discussions, instead of trying to analyze everything, be like looking at a field full of colorful butterflies and flowers adorned "better then King Solomon in all his glory" .... and let God disclose His beauty, He delights in doing so.

 

[Deborah13]

It was just something I did to see what passages were used so as to be able to address them. What's interesting is that the rich man is not said to be wicked.

Our position in redemption is not about what we do but about our belief in Messiah.
In the OT I think the believers relationship with God was a personal relationship based on their faith and God's grace.
People can do many good things but that does not redeem them.
So imo, all we can know about the rich man is that he didn't not have a relationship with God.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't think it's as simple as looking up the definition of the term. Revelation uses them pretty differently than other places, remember this is Apocalyptic literature.

For instance, Jesus says in Revelation 1:18 that he holds the keys to Death and Hades. Also in Revelation 6:8 it describes Death and Hades as riders who are given power over a 1/4th of the Earth to bring death and destruction.

I don't suppose to have all the answers, but I think it is speaking figuratively as it often does in Revelation and it should require more of our time to figure it out. Rather than the approach of just having someone give the answer and then settle on that.

Hope that makes sense,
DI

I don't look to Rev. for a complete understanding of this issue. If it cannot be determined by other scriptures then it cannot be determined.
My specific question was about the relationship between 'thanatos' and 'hades'.
In this verse we see that what is being given up is the 'dead' 'nekros', a corpse.
The 'sea' gives up the 'nekros' in it. Death gives up the 'nekros' in it. Hell gives up the 'nekros' in it.
Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. What happens to the 'nekros' delivered up from the 'sea'?
I think there is too much figurative language for me to determine much from this scripture. All I can do is speculate as to what 'Death' represents.
What do you think 'Death' 'thanatos' represents? How is it different from 'hell' 'hades' 'the grave'?
Are all three terms sea, death, and hades symbolic for something else?

 

[JLB]

I don't think it's as simple as looking up the definition of the term. Revelation uses them pretty differently than other places, remember this is Apocalyptic literature.

For instance, Jesus says in Revelation 1:18 that he holds the keys to Death and Hades. Also in Revelation 6:8 it describes Death and Hades as riders who are given power over a 1/4th of the Earth to bring death and destruction.

I don't suppose to have all the answers, but I think it is speaking figuratively as it often does in Revelation and it should require more of our time to figure it out. Rather than the approach of just having someone give the answer and then settle on that.

Hope that makes sense,
DI

Yes, I agree brother, we should take heed to the word and know that hell is a place we don't want to go, as it is associated with fire and torment and wailing and gnashing of teeth, in which the devil and his angels will end up.

JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't look to Rev. for a complete understanding of this issue. If it cannot be determined by other scriptures then it cannot be determined.
My specific question was about the relationship between 'thanatos' and 'hades'.
In this verse we see that what is being given up is the 'dead' 'nekros', a corpse.
The 'sea' gives up the 'nekros' in it. Death gives up the 'nekros' in it. Hell gives up the 'nekros' in it.
Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. What happens to the 'nekros' delivered up from the 'sea'?
I think there is too much figurative language for me to determine much from this scripture. All I can do is speculate as to what 'Death' represents.
What do you think 'Death' 'thanatos' represents? How is it different from 'hell' 'hades' 'the grave'?
Are all three terms sea, death, and hades symbolic for something else?

I'm not sure, but I think it is representative of death in general being destroyed as it says in 1 Corinthians 15. Death will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

 

[agua.]

Are death and hell two different places?
(Rev 20:13 KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

It's poetic language which describes the 2 facets of death in that we die and then are buried. Death isn't an entity, or a tangible thing, and you can't actually pick it up and throw it etc. Death and hell ( the grave ) won't exist anymore.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It's poetic language which describes the 2 facets of death in that we die and then are buried. Death isn't an entity, or a tangible thing, and you can't actually pick it up and throw it etc. Death and hell ( the grave ) won't exist anymore.

This I believe is an accurate explanation.

 

[Butch5]

I think the punishment will fit the crime and Jesus will decide what is fitting. ( we have no idea how to judge correctly without seeing the heart/intention ). eg Looking at the OT different crimes brought different punishment. It's interesting there's more than one Book as witness against the wicked.

(Rev 20:12 KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(Rev 20:13 KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The greatest punishment will be the second death / no eternal life because a person has not turned to God.

(Rev 20:15 KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hi Agua,

I haven't really thought much on the degrees of punishment.

 

[Butch5]

I think there's a lot of persons referred to who aren't said specifically to be wicked in Scripture,
but everyone is told, was told, to "repent, for the kingdom of God(or heaven) is at hand",
and everyone is dead in trespasses and sin. (until not dead) (with dire results for multitudes)
Matthew 3:2
Ephesians 2
(and good results for the saved) >> (looking for ref for below quote)

The Bible begins with the words, "In the beginning God...." (Gen.1:1). This is the primary characteristic of any work that is truly Divine : It has its origin in God Himself. On the other hand, human work - even if it is called "Christian work" - has its origin in the mind of man.

Jesus said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant will be rooted up." (Matt.15:13). The plant (idea, work, ministry etc.,) itself may be a good plant. But that makes no difference. If it was not planted by God, it will be pulled out and burnt up one day.

There are many good things in Christendom today that did not originate in God. But in the day when God shakes heaven and earth, all of that will be destroyed by God Himself. Only that which is unshakable - that which originated in God - will remain in that day (Heb.12:26-28).
There is a strong urge in the flesh of man to want to do things for God. All false religions flourish by catering to this urge. It makes man feel big and important when he feels that he has done something for God - whether it be building a temple or a mosque, or giving money to the poor, or practising righteousness, or preaching, or doing good.
In true Christianity however, everything begins with God.
"In Christ"
Our salvation began in God's mind. It was He Who "chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph.1:4). We love Him because He first loved us (1 Jn.4:19). In Ephesians, Paul describes first of all what God has done for us (Chapters 1 to 3). Only then does he proceed to describe what we must do for God (Chapters 4 to 6)."

from http://www.cfcindia.com/web/books/zac/the_full_gospel.html

Hi Jeff,

I think I missed your point.

 

[Butch5]

Our position in redemption is not about what we do but about our belief in Messiah.
In the OT I think the believers relationship with God was a personal relationship based on their faith and God's grace.
People can do many good things but that does not redeem them.
So imo, all we can know about the rich man is that he didn't not have a relationship with God.

Hi Deb,

My point about the passage was simply that it is the only passage that I found that spoke of both, the dead and torment. It's the only one and it says nothing about anyone being righteous or wicked.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Hi Jeff,
I think I missed your point.

I think Scripture consigns all men under sin, so even if it doesn't say the rich man was wicked, he was, according to Scripture (wicked as and along with all the world).
Romans 3

 

[Butch5]

I think Scripture consigns all men under sin, so even if it doesn't say the rich man was wicked, he was, according to Scripture (wicked as and along with all the world).
Romans 3

My point wasn't about the rich man. My point is that nothing is said about why the rich man is in Hades. People claim that this passage teaches that the wicked are tormented. Throughout Scripture we see the righteous contrasted with the wicked and eternal life contrasted with death or destruction. Here in the only passage I found that speaks of death and torment there is no mention at all of eternal life, the righteous, or the wicked.

 

[turnorburn]

Sorry guys i didn't mean 5 years i was being facetious, in the eternity there is no time, i do believe in various severity when it comes to judgment..but its all eternal whether it be eternal life or eternal damnation.

tob

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

My point about the passage was simply that it is the only passage that I found that spoke of both, the dead and torment. It's the only one and it says nothing about anyone being righteous or wicked.

Sorry Butch, I have a hard time just looking at words.
You are correct it doesn't mention either of these things.

 

[Butch5]

Sorry Butch, I have a hard time just looking at words.
You are correct it doesn't mention either of these things.

It was just an observation that I made. I thought it was interesting.

 

[agua.]

Hi Deb,

My point about the passage was simply that it is the only passage that I found that spoke of both, the dead and torment. It's the only one and it says nothing about anyone being righteous or wicked.

Butch this is a very interesting point. I read something the other day about the duality of the "riches" Jesus was talking about concerning the Pharisees. One was mammon and the other was the knowledge of God. He may have also been chastising them for not sharing the knowledge of the Kingdom with the Gentiles.

 

[Deborah13]

Butch this is a very interesting point. I read something the other day about the duality of the "riches" Jesus was talking about concerning the Pharisees. One was mammon and the other was the knowledge of God. He may have also been chastising them for not sharing the knowledge of the Kingdom with the Gentiles.

That's an interesting idea, that may be so. He did say this...

Mat 23:13 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.

Mat 23:15 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen--ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.

 

[agua.]

That's an interesting idea, that may be so. He did say this...

Mat 23:13 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.

Mat 23:15 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen--ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.

Cool ! Yes this does indicate these particular Pharisees were teaching and delivering the wrong message when they were supposed to be delivering the oracles of God even to the Gentiles.

 

[Butch5]

Butch this is a very interesting point. I read something the other day about the duality of the "riches" Jesus was talking about concerning the Pharisees. One was mammon and the other was the knowledge of God. He may have also been chastising them for not sharing the knowledge of the Kingdom with the Gentiles.

Hi agua,
That's possible. They did keep people from the kingdom according to Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

Did Paul believe in Conditional Immortality? We know the Pharisees held that the only after life is the resurrection of the dead, however, here are his own words.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1Co 15:12-18 KJV)

Paul said if there is no resurrection then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If they were in Heaven with Jesus they wouldn't have perished. The hope that Paul holds out is the resurrection, without that there is no hope.