Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[Butch5]

So there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness.
What is the outer darkness, do you think?

Please remember that I don't have a side I am supporting in this study. I'm just asking questions.

Hi Deb,

Psalm 122 gives us some insight into why they are wailing and gnashing their. The gnashing of teeth is an indication of anger.

NKJ Psalm 112:1 Praise the LORD! Blessed is the man who fears the LORD, Who delights greatly in His commandments.
2 His descendants will be mighty on earth; The generation of the upright will be blessed.
3 Wealth and riches will be in his house, And his righteousness endures forever.
4 Unto the upright there arises light in the darkness; He is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.
5 A good man deals graciously and lends; He will guide his affairs with discretion.
6 Surely he will never be shaken; The righteous will be in everlasting remembrance.
7 He will not be afraid of evil tidings; His heart is steadfast, trusting in the LORD.
8 His heart is established; He will not be afraid, Until he sees his desire upon his enemies.
9 He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever; His horn will be exalted with honor.
10 The wicked will see it and be grieved; He will gnash his teeth and melt away; The desire of the wicked shall perish. (Psa 112:1-10 NKJ)

Jesus told the Jewish leaders that they would see people coming from the east and the west to sit with Abraham in the kingdom but they would cast out.

10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!
11 "And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
12 "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Mat 8:10-12 NKJ)

This Psalm seems to be addressing the end time when the righteous are exulted and the wicked rejected. Notice it says the gnash their teeth and melt away. Melting away would seem to indicate heat or fire.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah it makes sense Butch but I'm still trying to settle it in my mind. Basically aionios is an unspecified time period but depending on the context, or the adverb used with it, it may mean eternal ?

Hi Agua,

As I see it it can be used of an eternal event, but doesn't mean that. I think Young's Literal translation has it right.


YLT John 3:15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during

I think age-during is a good translation. Life through the age seems correct to me because "aion" means an age.

 

[Butch5]

Luke 16 this is the Greek word for 'grief or sorrow' that type of torment.
G3600 - is the verb form of the word so we need to look at the noun it comes from.
G3601 - consuming grief, pain, sorrow
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3601&t=KJV

I don't think this really helps. But then again people who think this story is proof of physical torment, it does pretty much debunk that I think.

It was just something I did to see what passages were used so as to be able to address them. What's interesting is that the rich man is not said to be wicked.

 

[Butch5]

I know from personal experience (mine) this is exactly what I was doing.

Matthew 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” ​

First, if it meant torment, why is it translated punishment instead?

Also this verse appears in a section of Scripture using the separation of the goats from sheep. A group is separated on the left from a group on the right. Jesus is clearly setting eternal life in contrast to eternal __something____? To me, now that I've studied it, torment doesn't fit the contrast with life. An eternal life of torture is still an eternal life, is it not.

Goats are not sheep and left is not right and death is not life. But an eternal life of torture is still an eternal life.

Plus He's already said their punishment is "eternal fire" (which we know is a consuming fire, via other passages) just a couple verses before. Matt 25:41, 2peter 2:6, Heb 12:29, Matt 3:12, etc.)

Plus, He says that eternal fire is their second death (not torture) in Rev 20:14.

I've asked and asked what passage(s) directly teach that the final punishment of the wicked = eternal torture (even trying it in the Bible Study section before). I've never seen a Scripture that teaches their final eternal punishment is in fact eternal torture.

Again, maybe that's why it is translated punishment and not torture.

Odd, really, that someone would say the Greek word Kolasis means torture.

You listed some non-Biblical secular Greek usages of this word where it does not mean torture.

It is also used in the Roman Catholic Bible, WIS 14:10, to describe how physical (wooden as I recall) idols will be treated. It is in the verb form, however.

WIS 14:10 For that which is made [wooden idols] shall be punished together with him that made it.

That's a good point Chessman, I hadn't thought of that. I did a search for passages that contained the word torment and the only passage that spoke of the dead was the passage in Luke 16 the rich man and Lazarus. No other passage that used the English word torment spoke of the dead, they all spoke of the living.

 

[jeff77]

Please provide a plausible explanation for it being a figurative usage of the term, if you would.

I think hell is a separation from God. It is true you could be separated from God by not existing but for the separation to be an everlasting punishment I think destroy is used figuratively to mean 'lost'. If it is used literally then the everlasting punishment doesn't make sense to me because the unsaved person would not be aware they are being punished. I understand how some come to the conclusion of the literal. I'm just saying what makes more sense to me and I respect the other side.

 

[Brother Mike]

What is this all about?

 

[DRS81]

What is this all about?

It's about nonbelievers in hell eventually ceasing to exist. They burn for a little while and then God destroys them eventually. I myself believe in eternal punishment.

 

[Butch5]

What is this all about?

It's about Conditional Immortality. The doctrine says that man is not innately immortal. Believers will live by continuously receiving life from God. The wicked will not receive life from God and as such will be destroyed.

 

[turnorburn]

Burn for a little while like say 5 years for a lie if you've told 100 lies that's 500 years and so on and so forth but you'll have to remember none of this is in Gods word its another one of mans doctrines..

tob

 

[Butch5]

Burn for a little while like say 5 years for a lie if you've told 100 lies that's 500 years and so on and so forth but you'll have to remember none of this is in Gods word its another one of mans doctrines..

tob

I can't speak for the others but I don't believe a person can burn for 5 years. I'd imagine that a body would burn relatively quickly

 

[agua.]

I can't speak for the others but I don't believe a person can burn for 5 years. I'd imagine that a body would burn relatively quickly

I think the punishment will fit the crime and Jesus will decide what is fitting. ( we have no idea how to judge correctly without seeing the heart/intention ). eg Looking at the OT different crimes brought different punishment. It's interesting there's more than one Book as witness against the wicked.

(Rev 20:12 KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(Rev 20:13 KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The greatest punishment will be the second death / no eternal life because a person has not turned to God.

(Rev 20:15 KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[JLB]

I think the punishment will fit the crime and Jesus will decide what is fitting. ( we have no idea how to judge correctly without seeing the heart/intention ). eg Looking at the OT different crimes brought different punishment. It's interesting there's more than one Book as witness against the wicked.

(Rev 20:12 KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(Rev 20:13 KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The greatest punishment will be the second death / no eternal life because a person has not turned to God.

(Rev 20:15 KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Makes sense!

The ones who take the mark ond worship the beast will suffer the severest, and the devil and his angels will be tormented as well.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 12:10

It would be difficult for me to believe that someone could argue against this scripture.

The false prophet [human] and devil [spirit] will suffer the same tormenting fate.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

Those who worship the beast and take his mark will also be tormented day and night, forever and ever.

The rest will be judged according to their works.

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I think the punishment will fit the crime and Jesus will decide what is fitting. ( we have no idea how to judge correctly without seeing the heart/intention ). eg Looking at the OT different crimes brought different punishment. It's interesting there's more than one Book as witness against the wicked.

(Rev 20:12 KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(Rev 20:13 KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The greatest punishment will be the second death / no eternal life because a person has not turned to God.

(Rev 20:15 KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Are death and hell two different places?
(Rev 20:13 KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Are death and hell two different places?
(Rev 20:13 KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

yes. (actually, 'death' may well refer to a condition, not to a place, as a person in china and a person in europe may both be dead, in death, yet not in the same place.)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Are death and hell two different places?
(Rev 20:13 KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I recommend reading the OT to see how they use Sheol (hell is a terrible translation) along with the word Death.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I think the punishment will fit the crime and Jesus will decide what is fitting. ( we have no idea how to judge correctly without seeing the heart/intention ).........

God's Torah tells HIs children how to judge correctly, now, today. He doesn't leave any leeway right or left, but straight on. (for another thread, which I'll start later, Yhwh willing. Remind me if I forget or take too long.)
He does not say to try to see some persons heart or intention, does He ? (I think it's not needed nor required nor beneficial)

Instead, always, be obedient to God, all the time.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

It was just something I did to see what passages were used so as to be able to address them. What's interesting is that the rich man is not said to be wicked.

I think there's a lot of persons referred to who aren't said specifically to be wicked in Scripture,
but everyone is told, was told, to "repent, for the kingdom of God(or heaven) is at hand",
and everyone is dead in trespasses and sin. (until not dead) (with dire results for multitudes)
Matthew 3:2
Ephesians 2
(and good results for the saved) >> (looking for ref for below quote)

The Bible begins with the words, "In the beginning God...." (Gen.1:1). This is the primary characteristic of any work that is truly Divine : It has its origin in God Himself. On the other hand, human work - even if it is called "Christian work" - has its origin in the mind of man.

Jesus said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant will be rooted up." (Matt.15:13). The plant (idea, work, ministry etc.,) itself may be a good plant. But that makes no difference. If it was not planted by God, it will be pulled out and burnt up one day.

There are many good things in Christendom today that did not originate in God. But in the day when God shakes heaven and earth, all of that will be destroyed by God Himself. Only that which is unshakable - that which originated in God - will remain in that day (Heb.12:26-28).
There is a strong urge in the flesh of man to want to do things for God. All false religions flourish by catering to this urge. It makes man feel big and important when he feels that he has done something for God - whether it be building a temple or a mosque, or giving money to the poor, or practising righteousness, or preaching, or doing good.
In true Christianity however, everything begins with God.
"In Christ"
Our salvation began in God's mind. It was He Who "chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph.1:4). We love Him because He first loved us (1 Jn.4:19). In Ephesians, Paul describes first of all what God has done for us (Chapters 1 to 3). Only then does he proceed to describe what we must do for God (Chapters 4 to 6)."

from http://www.cfcindia.com/web/books/zac/the_full_gospel.html

 

[Deborah13]

I recommend reading the OT to see how they use Sheol (hell is a terrible translation) along with the word Death.

I really don't get hung up on the definition of hell. I was just asking if ______ and ______ meant to two different things. Like if I said, Denver and St Louis or Denver and Colorado.

 

[Deborah13]

yes. (actually, 'death' may well refer to a condition, not to a place, as a person in china and a person in europe may both be dead, in death, yet not in the same place.)

That's more along the lines of what I was wondering.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That's more along the lines of what I was wondering.

I don't think it's as simple as looking up the definition of the term. Revelation uses them pretty differently than other places, remember this is Apocalyptic literature.

For instance, Jesus says in Revelation 1:18 that he holds the keys to Death and Hades. Also in Revelation 6:8 it describes Death and Hades as riders who are given power over a 1/4th of the Earth to bring death and destruction.

I don't suppose to have all the answers, but I think it is speaking figuratively as it often does in Revelation and it should require more of our time to figure it out. Rather than the approach of just having someone give the answer and then settle on that.

Hope that makes sense,
DI