Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[agua.]

Not really getting involved because i know nothing of this subject, but do find it a bit fascinating. Could someone please tell me of which denominations' building i could walk in to and learn more?

This is a problem which scares people away from the CI doctrine Northman because the largest groups it's taught by are JW's and SDA and both of these hold some very strange ideas. I agree with Dl that it's probably best to not let it stumble you if you're new in faith because you may receive negative treatment from mainstream Churches. Keep it in mind though when witnessing imo.

 

[Chopper]

Not really getting involved because i know nothing of this subject, but do find it a bit fascinating. Could someone please tell me of which denominations' building i could walk in to and learn more?

Well, hello my Northern friend. Any snow left? The topic of our thread is "Conditional Immortality" (CI) is not taught in any denomination that I'm aware of. It is a topic that rubs against mainline denominations because they are stuck in the belief that the unsaved will live again after the resurrection and Great White throne judgment, and cast into the lake of fire, that they will be conscious forever in the torment of the flames. "CI" teaches that there is an end to the suffering of the unsaved who are in the lake of fire at some point where they are not conscious any more. They simply don't exist in any form. Body, soul, and spirit simply is gone. The amount of time that they spend in the lake of fire depends on how much they have sinned. This is how I understand it. Most of this doctrine comes from understanding what it really means "The wages of sin is death."

 

[Chopper]

Yeah Chop the definition of death is really a big stumble. When Yahweh told Adam he would die in the day he ate from the forbidden tree the consequence was physical. imo. Adam's body returned to dust and God's spirit returned to Him. When we talk about spiritual death it means we're in a state which will lead to the LoF ie. unbelief. We can be considered dead even while alive as per John5:24, Romans 6:13 etc. Both the state of being alive and dead in these scriptures refers to the present position of a person ( belief or unbelief) which will decide their fate after the resurrection/s ( life or death ). imo

Joh 5:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


When the wicked are resurrected they will have a physical body right ? So they died physically once and then are judged and receive punishment for their sins/works and then are killed again. Whether the punishment takes place inside the LoF or before the wicked enter it I'm not convinced but either way I assume the length of the punishment will depend on what it is specifically and how Yahweh's Holy standards balance the scales of justice. So I think you can compress 3 deaths into 2 if you consider that the punishment period is while the wicked are living. ( between the resurrection and the second death). imo

I agree with you my friend. I threw out three death's just to get a little more instruction on a point when the unbeliever ceases consciousness.

 

[Butch5]

"Therefore, when Revelation speaks of the "Beast" and the "False Prophet," we need to understand that in each case, we are speaking of TWO entities -- a man and a demonic spirit inhabiting and controlling him." Tim Warner.

This makes sense considering Rev 16.

Rev 16:13-14 KJV And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

That's a good observation agua! That understanding does clear up several issues.

 

[Butch5]

Thank you Butch for your instruction. You are most welcome to this study. I have been impressed with your knowledge of the Scriptures, in the past, and feel that you have a lot on your mind that you'd like us to be aware of, so "go for it."

Also, would you like to start a thread on the body, soul, and spirit, and what happens to this part of man after the judgment? Or do you think that this topic can merge into this one at some time?

Thanks for the kind words Chopper! I think the topic of the soul, body, spirit is related to this topic and I'd be more than happy to address it. I'd like to see what DI thinks since this is his thread. I'm not sure if he has a particular direction he'd like to the thread. If he thinks it better I can start another thread. I wouldn't want it to become compartmentalized.

 

[JLB]

This is not a universal position among Conditionalists, but it is one that I personally hold to.


I provided a brief definition earlier in the thread, but perhaps I can here elaborate a bit more on it's definition.

Conditional Immortality is a doctrine that is built on the belief on the nature of man and the nature of God. Namely that God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16) and that mankind only obtains this through being united with Christ. Adam himself was not innately immortal but was sustained by the tree of life (Genesis 2:9) and that tree of life will also be present in the New Creation (Revelation 22:2,14). This of course also is a rejection of the idea that man has an innately immortal soul, as this immortality belongs solely to God. We in Christ alone are the ones who share in the benefit of immortality as we receive this gift through faith in Christ. Those who do not have faith and are still in their sins will live this one life and be resurrected at the final judgment only to be sentenced to destruction, in which there will be a brief (depends on the severity of their sins) period of existence remaining. Body and Soul are utterly destroyed by the fire that consumes.

Thank you.

 

[JLB]

Hi Chopper,

This is a really good time to review the meaning of the word as well. The source you used "Vine's" is an expository dictionary, this is not a strong source for determining the meaning of words. W. E. Vine starts with his doctrine, which presupposes the immortality of all humanity (the wicked and righteous alike) and then defines the word from that presupposition. This is expressly how one does not define words.

The Greek word derived from the root which means "to die," simply means the end of life, the state of being dead. This word can be used metaphorically/figuratively sometimes, such as in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, where the Father speaks of his son once being dead. His son wasn't actually dead of course, but he used this to express a metaphor of their relationship being broken and separated.

To suppose it means conscious existence in separation from God is just crazy to me. No where in the definition of death does it denote the aspects of life. This is one of the primary and fundamental issues with the traditional view. It supposes that the wicked also have immortality, when Scripture is clear that only believers have such. That the wicked be totally conscious and living despite being dead/destroyed (both body and soul).

This I believe is because of the influence of Platonism on Christianity, the emphasis in this line of thinking is on the continuation of existence of an innately immortal. This is not the focus of the Bible, where Jesus doesn't just simply die and be a spirit, but he ROSE from the dead (not some kind of spiritual death but physical death). That same physical resurrection is now the hope we now have as believers, not that we will go to heaven when we die, but rather we will rise and reign with Christ over the New Heavens and New Earth!

God is not looking to throw creation in the trash bin, he is rather making all things new!

I think in my next post I will talk about the emphasis on God saving us from physical death, as it is a message that has gotten lost to the modern church who over-emphasizes salvation as being spiritual.

I agree with much of what you are saying here.

Where I think we disagree is on the point of a being that is created by God whether human or angelic, a son of God that is mortal.

Lucifer, Gabriel or Adam, all were created by God and from God.

God is the Father of spirits.

At what point do you claim that the substance of God that these beings were created from ceases to exist?

JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I agree with much of what you are saying here.

Where I think we disagree is on the point of a being that is created by God whether human or angelic, a son of God that is mortal.

Lucifer, Gabriel or Adam, all were created by God and from God.

God is the Father of spirits.

At what point do you claim that the substance of God that these beings were created from ceases to exist?

JLB

All beings whether angelic or human are sustained and given life by the Father of all. No being has the power of an immortal life and is self-sustaining but God.

 

[Butch5]

All beings whether angelic or human are sustained and given life by the Father of all. No being has the power of an immortal life and is self-sustaining but God.

 

[JLB]

All beings whether angelic or human are sustained and given life by the Father of all. No being has the power of an immortal life and is self-sustaining but God.

That's not what I asked.

Let's try again.

At what point does a spirit being cease to exist?

Satan and his angels, do not seem to cease to exist.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

JLB

 

[JLB]

If God grants the gift of an immortal life to an angel then that angel has immortality.

336 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:36

JLB

 

[JLB]

All beings whether angelic or human are sustained and given life by the Father of all. No being has the power of an immortal life and is self-sustaining but God.

Please provide scripture.

 

[agua.]

If God grants the gift of an immortal life to an angel then that angel has immortality.

336 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:36

JLB

This is talking about the state of Believers ( sons of God ) after the resurrection.

Luk 20:35-37 KJV But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: (36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Angels don't suffer from the edict that we're subject to ie. appointed to die. This means that we will be free of the curse to die as the angels are ( and Adam was before the fall ). This doesn't mean Angels are immortal though. imo. I suggest the wages of sin will eventually lead fallen Angels to the same fate as the wicked.

Please provide scripture.

Rom 2:7 KJV To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1Ti 6:15-16 KJV Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

 

[JLB]

This is talking about the state of Believers ( sons of God ) after the resurrection.

Luk 20:35-37 KJV But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: (36) Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Angels don't suffer from the edict that we're subject to ie. appointed to die. This means that we will be free of the curse to die as the angels are ( and Adam was before the fall ). This doesn't mean Angels are immortal though. imo. I suggest the wages of sin will eventually lead fallen Angels to the same fate as the wicked.



Rom 2:7 KJV To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


1Ti 6:15-16 KJV Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Yes, the state of believers at the resurrection have become, have obtained the state of immortality like the angels.

Angels, sons of God are immortal.

JLB

 

[agua.]

Yes, the state of believers at the resurrection have become, have obtained the state of immortality like the angels.

Angels, sons of God are immortal.

JLB

Scripture ta JLB ?

 

[JLB]

Scripture ta JLB ?

I just gave you Luke 20:36.

nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

They can't die; equal to the angels.


JLB

 

[agua.]

I just gave you Luke 20:36.

nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

They can't die; equal to the angels.


JLB

Ok sure. This doesn't mean the angels are immortal though imo especially considering what I've recently understood concerning the LoF / Gehenna eventually being made Holy To God. Also have you considered the Angels here may be the faithful ones ? Is this a possibility ?

 

[chessman]

Thanks for sharing your story, what inspired you to begin to study and question what you once believed?

I listen to Chris Date's Theopologetics podcast. Every so often within one of his podcasts he would mention his interest and study of CI. I did not share that same interest and frankly wondered why he did. When he created the separate podcast (rethinking Hell) I even thought; good maybe now that topic (one I thought was wrong) can be discussed over there in RH and Theopologetics can be left to discuss other doctrines. Why did I even need to rethink Hell? I already knew what Hell was. So I never even visited that website or listened to those podcasts.

His podcast #81 (Sola Scriptura, which Chris affirms) is still one of my top 10 apologetics podcasts out of 1,000s.

Then one day Chris posted a RH debate he had with another person holding to the traditional view.

It DID NOT convince me entirely that ECT was wrong, but it sure did get me thinking I should probably study their fate a little more. So, I did.

I started my own personal Bible study relative to man's immortality first. And it is extremely clear via Sola Scriptura that only God has a immortality quality. Problem is, I'd been taught otherwise my whole life.

So, I suppose I could point to Chris's Theopologetics podcast #88.

Anyway, what got me first interested was Chris's Theopologetics. What convinced me I was wrong about man's immortality was Scripture!

 

[Butch5]

Please provide scripture.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; {confession: or, profession}
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:13-16 KJV)

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1Ti 6:13 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

Yes, the state of believers at the resurrection have become, have obtained the state of immortality like the angels.

Angels, sons of God are immortal.

JLB

They are not innately immortal. The Scriptures state plainly that the Father alone has immortality. In light of that Scripture the only way one can have immortality is to receive life from the source, the Father, on a continual basis. That is what we see in Revelation, believers will have access to the tree of life.

7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."' (Rev 2:7 NKJ)